What makes anything real .. .

Oooo, that could be answered in so many ways hehe!

What makes anything/something real In your eyes .

Only the I is real, though that is not an I that is seperate from 'other' as most would assume, but the I that is One with all.

What must anything/something contain In order to be real .

It must contain nothing (no-thing) as to contain any "thing" is to see that "thing" as "other" and this creates a dualistic perception in the mind that seperates the true Us from just BEing.

:rolleyes:

Oooo, that could be answered in so many ways hehe!

Only the I is real, though that is not an I that is seperate from 'other' as most would assume, but the I that is One with all.

It must contain nothing (no-thing) as to contain any "thing" is to see that "thing" as "other" and this creates a dualistic perception in the mind that seperates the true Us from just BEing.

:rolleyes:

Thanks for taking a stab at this giles . 🙂

Whats' your thoughts In relation to the I within mind . What I mean Is that In my understandings the self Is what we are within mind . The "I" can be related to the self because their is only ONE self and only ONE "I" . (They are the same) .

I would say the self awareness and the I - Identity cease to be when one realizes what they are .

So what does that say about the self or the "I" being real .

Can something/anything real come and go within existence? .

When certain realizations come to the fore the universe and along with that "the self" can disappear also - so I understand why many say that our mindful universe and anything that's In connection with It Is an illusion, but I also understand that If what we are Is real then anything created by what we are will contain that same essence of realness . So therefore perhaps everything Is real on some level .

Interesting Indeed .

x dazzle x

what makes anything real

your believe and theoretical as well as practical aspect of anything makes it real .

Hiya Daz,

Whats' your thoughts In relation to the I within mind . What I mean Is that In my understandings the self Is what we are within mind . The "I" can be related to the self because their is only ONE self and only ONE "I" . (They are the same) .

Not sure I get you. I don't see the "I" as being "within" anything, because it is simply the complete awareness of everything (and even then words can't really describe it). To see it as "within" is to see it as seperate from that which is not "within" and that is dualistic, certainly in words at least.

I would say the self awareness and the I - Identity cease to be when one realizes what they are.

Absolutely. Identity requires comparison between one thing and an"other". To be able to know "good", one must classify something as "not good". To label something as "I" one would typically have a concept of "not I". Yet, that only happens if one considers the "I" to be anything but everything. If I see myself as seperate from you, then that is not the true "I", but an ego based I, or one of a dualistic nature, yet if I consider myself as inclusive of everything including you, then we are all the same "I". However, one cannot see or look at this I because the I cannot see itself as to do so would require it to look at itself as seperate from that which is observing. We can only know of the I through the actions of I, but not by directly looking for it, just as we cannot see electricity, but can know of electricity, by the actions it creates.

So what does that say about the self or the "I" being real.

The I is reality. It if wasn't, then we would not exist. To adapt a well know phrase...
"I exist therefore I is" 😀

Can something/anything real come and go within existence?

All exists, nothing is created or destroyed ultimately, yet we create through the minds eye of dualism, or what Robert M Persig would call "quality". Without quality we would see a blank wall as the same as a wall with a picture on it. With quality, the picture becomes seperate from the wall, and may be seen as making the wall more attractive. Quality is the differentiating factor created by the mind that see's one things as seperate from another. Likewise, to use an example, one person may see some horse manure as smelly and horrible, whilst another may see it as good valuable compost for the garden. The manure itself is neither good nor bad in itself, those are just creations of the mind, the manure just simply IS.

When certain realizations come to the fore the universe and along with that "the self" can disappear also

Only if one lets go of the attachment to the realizations as being seperate from non-realizations. Simply bring it to the complete awareness. 😉

- so I understand why many say that our mindful universe and anything that's In connection with It Is an illusion, but I also understand that If what we are Is real then anything created by what we are will contain that same essence of realness . So therefore perhaps everything Is real on some level .

Absolutely, everything is real in this very moment. Yet, the labels that we create to seperate one from another is what is really the illusion.

Interesting Indeed .

Absolutely... and non-interesting at the same time. hehe! 😀

All Love and Reiki Hugs

Hiya Daz,

Not sure I get you. I don't see the "I" as being "within" anything, because it is simply the complete awareness of everything (and even then words can't really describe it). To see it as "within" is to see it as seperate from that which is not "within" and that is dualistic, certainly in words at least.

I can relate to there being an awareness of what I am within mind and what I am beyond mind although what we are Is constant what we are that Is realized within mind Is like seeing the stars through a telescope compared to realizing what you are beyond mind that would be equivalent to being up there with them (hehe) Although you won’t know that you are up there when you are because to know you are means you are back In the mind .

I don’t see any actual borderlines as like here Is a point within mind that leads you to beyond It but If the mind was a bubble of consciousness there would be whatever there Is within the bubble and whatever there Is outside of the bubble although the bubble Is Interconnected with the Inside and the outside of what Is .

Perhaps I should of put It across slightly better In that there Is an Individual “I” awareness that’s of the mind and there Is a no longer awareness of the self or the “I” when One Is no longer of It .

I like the analogy of a piece of paper where there Is a hole within the middle of It . Is the hole a part of the paper or Is the paper a part the hole . Clearly there Is both paper and hole existing together but you cannot separate one from the other (lol) . Perhaps being of the mind and not being of the mind Is similar In that respect . The hole being perhaps beyond mind .

Absolutely. Identity requires comparison between one thing and an"other". To be able to know "good", one must classify something as "not good". To label something as "I" one would typically have a concept of "not I". Yet, that only happens if one considers the "I" to be anything but everything. If I see myself as separate from you, then that is not the true "I", but an ego based I, or one of a dualistic nature, yet if I consider myself as inclusive of everything including you, then we are all the same "I". However, one cannot see or look at this I because the I cannot see itself as to do so would require it to look at itself as separate from that which is observing. We can only know of the I through the actions of I, but not by directly looking for it, just as we cannot see electricity, but can know of electricity, by the actions it creates.

I agree with much of this Giles .

Only if one lets go of the attachment to the realizations as being separate from non-realizations. Simply bring it to the complete awareness.

Ha Ha - There Is no-one present to let go of the attachment to the realization because when the realization Is happening the “I” or the self Is no more . In fact It’s only when “someone” Is aware of having had a realization will be because there Is a connection being made to somebody being present that’s having/had It . (lol) .

No-one can hold on to enlightenment or the realization of what you are because no-one Is present to hold on to It . For some reason though an Individual can slip from the realization back Into Individual consciousness . That Individual although of the mind once again will retain the awareness of what Is beyond It .

Absolutely... and non-interesting at the same time. hehe!

Ha ha ha . Yes . 🙂

x dazzle x

The one way I find explains it well for me (though as you obviously know it's difficult to put words that can describe it), is from some of the advaita teachings I received around what is meant by "ego".

Many look at ego as just being something negative and, in the general sense of the word as used by many, that is the case, yet if we look at the advaita teachings it enlightens our knowledge of it somewhat (does help if you already have som understanding of the true Self (awareness call it what you will) and the dualistic self).

In Sanskrit, the ego is known as "Ahankara".
This word is made of two parts. Ahan (spelt Aham when used seperately) and Kara.

Aham refers to the true Self, One Consciousness or whatever you want to call it.
Kara refers to, as the teachings put, "anything in creation" which can be something physical, mental, etc. anything you choose.

There are two ways we can now phrase this...

1) When the true Self becomes attached to anything in creation, the attachment seperates that "thing" from "other" creating dualism and thus Aham attaches to Kara to create Ahankara, or the ego, and it is with ego that we see things as seperate and with ego that we have attachment to things.

2) The true Self or Awareness "creates" and as it does so, the creation causes separation and hence dualism.

Only when we let go of the attachments does the Aham let go of the Kara and simply becomes Aham again. This letting go of attachment is what allows us to reach a state of simply BEing at One with everything.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

The one way I find explains it well for me (though as you obviously know it's difficult to put words that can describe it), is from some of the advaita teachings I received around what is meant by "ego".

Many look at ego as just being something negative and, in the general sense of the word as used by many, that is the case, yet if we look at the advaita teachings it enlightens our knowledge of it somewhat (does help if you already have som understanding of the true Self (awareness call it what you will) and the dualistic self).

In Sanskrit, the ego is known as "Ahankara".
This word is made of two parts. Ahan (spelt Aham when used seperately) and Kara.

Aham refers to the true Self, One Consciousness or whatever you want to call it.
Kara refers to, as the teachings put, "anything in creation" which can be something physical, mental, etc. anything you choose.

There are two ways we can now phrase this...

1) When the true Self becomes attached to anything in creation, the attachment seperates that "thing" from "other" creating dualism and thus Aham attaches to Kara to create Ahankara, or the ego, and it is with ego that we see things as seperate and with ego that we have attachment to things.

2) The true Self or Awareness "creates" and as it does so, the creation causes separation and hence dualism.

Only when we let go of the attachments does the Aham let go of the Kara and simply becomes Aham again. This letting go of attachment is what allows us to reach a state of simply BEing at One with everything.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

Hi Giles .

Yer I can go along with that - thanks for adding It to the thread . 🙂

So what's your thoughts (or anybody's) thoughts regarding beyond mind . Do you feel/believe there Is a beyond mind . How does one go beyond It . Or how does one no longer experience It .

You mention a state of being . .

Only when we let go of the attachments does the Aham let go of the Kara and simply becomes Aham again. This letting go of attachment is what allows us to reach a state of simply BEing at One with everything.

Would this "be" within mind or beyond - Or apply to both . . .

x daz x

Hi Daz,

I would say that the mind is a creation of the One awareness as per the previous post.

In the advaita teachings they go something along the lines of (perhaps adapted by myself a little hehe!) ...

If you can observe a chair, you can't Be the chair, for if the chair is removed, you do not disappear.
If you can observe your foot, you can't Be the foot, for if the foot is removed, you do not disappear.
If you can observe pain, you cannot Be the pain, for if the pain goes, you do not disappear.
If you can observe your body changing such as when you grow/age, then you cannot Be the body for as the cells disappear and are regenerated, you do not disappear and start as a new you.
If you can observe emotions e.g. anger arising, you cannot be the emotions, for as the emotions arise and disappear, you do not disappear.

The one thing that remains constant throughout all, is the observer, always observing and never changing, and itself the one thing that cannot be observed, but is known to exist by virtue of the fact it is observing.

As such, it is the same with the mind... we can observe the working of the mind; the thoughts arising; the attachments of these thoughts to past memories, thus bringing up more thoughts; the ideas of future that it creates..... these are all observed. Hence the mind is something the observer is aware of and is within awareness, for if the I existed within the mind it would change as the mind was observed changing. Of course this doesn't discredit the 'concept' of "I" that we have to have to do what we are doing here i.e. trying to put the "I" down in words. In truth, no amount of words can describe the "I" that is complete awareness, as words have limits.

Now, the question that came to me when I was learning this was "If I am not these other things, then they are "other" to me and I am not all One with everything"? but then I considered this and realized the answer... Just because I cannot Be those other things, actually means that I am not solely just those other things, but that I am every "other" thing that I am aware of, and so everything IS one with Awareness, including the mind... which then brings me back to where I previously mentioned the Awareness is that which is creating "other"/dualism and thus the attachment.

So, back to your question... I guess I'm saying the mind is an "other" created in awareness.

There is a book by Amit Goswami called "Self Aware Universe - How Consciousness Creates The Material World", which I think is the 'scientific' (quantum physicist) explanation of this. It's on my pile of books to read, so I think that shall be the next. hehe!

All Love and Reiki Hugs

Hi Daz,

I would say that the mind is a creation of the One awareness as per the previous post.

In the advaita teachings they go something along the lines of (perhaps adapted by myself a little hehe!) ...

If you can observe a chair, you can't Be the chair, for if the chair is removed, you do not disappear.
If you can observe your foot, you can't Be the foot, for if the foot is removed, you do not disappear.
If you can observe pain, you cannot Be the pain, for if the pain goes, you do not disappear.
If you can observe your body changing such as when you grow/age, then you cannot Be the body for as the cells disappear and are regenerated, you do not disappear and start as a new you.
If you can observe emotions e.g. anger arising, you cannot be the emotions, for as the emotions arise and disappear, you do not disappear.

I agree Giles and you have explained this very well and In a way that all can understand .

My point being Is In reference to an experience had when the universe disappeared along with any Identity of the self .

There was no-thing to observe . So where did the created universe go .
How can an Individual observer like my next-door neighbour remain within our creative universe and my Individual self be absent from It at the same time .

Where did my awareness take me too? Beyond our creation? Beyond mind? .

The one thing that remains constant throughout all, is the observer, always observing and never changing, and itself the one thing that cannot be observed, but is known to exist by virtue of the fact it is observing.

I agree . As long as there Is something present to observe . 🙂

As such, it is the same with the mind... we can observe the working of the mind; the thoughts arising; the attachments of these thoughts to past memories, thus bringing up more thoughts; the ideas of future that it creates..... these are all observed. Hence the mind is something the observer is aware of and is within awareness, for if the I existed within the mind it would change as the mind was observed changing. Of course this doesn't discredit the 'concept' of "I" that we have to have to do what we are doing here i.e. trying to put the "I" down in words. In truth, no amount of words can describe the "I" that is complete awareness, as words have limits.

Great point made In reference to the blue highlighted text . Consciousness Is the same medium In & of the mind that allows anything to happen . Anything that can be realized or unrealized etc..etc..

Now, the question that came to me when I was learning this was "If I am not these other things, then they are "other" to me and I am not all One with everything"? but then I considered this and realized the answer... Just because I cannot Be those other things, actually means that I am not solely just those other things, but that I am every "other" thing that I am aware of, and so everything IS one with Awareness, including the mind... which then brings me back to where I previously mentioned the Awareness is that which is creating "other"/dualism and thus the attachment.

Absolutely Giles .

So, back to your question... I guess I'm saying the mind is an "other" created in awareness.

So Is It possible (In your eyes) for an "Individual part" of the whole that Is the "I" or the Individual "self" (that Is also a part of our created universe) to be beyond awareness of It . If the Individual Is not aware of anything In creation then what's left to be aware of . Perhaps to be aware of awareness he hee .

That's why I can relate to those that speak of there "being nothing there" In the "void" (not even light) but all of what we are which Is the everything Is still present within that nothingness .

There is a book by Amit Goswami called "Self Aware Universe - How Consciousness Creates The Material World", which I think is the 'scientific' (quantum physicist) explanation of this. It's on my pile of books to read, so I think that shall be the next. hehe!

Thanks for the tip .

All Love and Reiki Hugs

x dazzle x

My point being Is In reference to an experience had when the universe disappeared along with any Identity of the self .

There was no-thing to observe . So where did the created universe go.

Still there, part of everything that is all One, just not differentiated into seperate parts to be able to compare one part to another and see them as different. As I said above, to be able to identify something needs something "other" to compare it against. So, it's not really that the universe disappears, but that the dualistic concept of one being seperate from the universe disappears.... we are at One with the universe, thus the universe is awareness and awareness simply is... because it cannot be aware of itself as something that is "other".

How can an Individual observer like my next-door neighbour remain within our creative universe and my Individual self be absent from It at the same time .

Where did my awareness take me too? Beyond our creation? Beyond mind?

Couple of points really... to see your neighbour remain within the universe implies that they are a seperate part within the universe, but you are merely considering their physical creation as you are aware of it. Likewise to consider your "individual" self to be "absent" from the universe is to be looking at yourself dualistically as seperate, so this "self" you are considering is not the true Self, but the dualistic concept of self (or the ego self as it is sometimes referred to as).

Your true awareness doesn't take you "to" anywhere, because it is already everywhere, and nowhere at the same time. Again, to consider something to be somewhere it has to be considered in another place to something "other". You wouldn't go "beyond creation", but creation is recognised a being the awareness and thus all becomes One. There is no "beyond".

I agree . As long as there Is something present to observe . 🙂

The observer (awareness) simply exists, nothing is destroyed or un-created, that is just a limitation of the mind to think so. The difference when the awareness becomes aware of being One with everything is that it loses the dualism and thus has no need to differentiate between the true Self and some created "other". As long as the awareness creates dualism, it will observe "other". I suppose our questions should be... Why does awareness create "other"? What is the purpose of doing that, if indeed there is a purpose? Does there have to be a reason, or is that just a 'need' of the mind? :rolleyes:

So Is It possible (In your eyes) for an "Individual part" of the whole that Is the "I" or the Individual "self" (that Is also a part of our created universe) to be beyond awareness of It .

I would posit that the answer is No.
An "individual part" of the whole is the ego self... that is the attachment to things in creation. Because of this attachment to creation, it cannot go beyond anything, and when we consider that the true Self that is all One is fully inclusive, then there is indeed nothing "beyond" for anything to go to. "beyondness" can only exist in dualism, where a limit is created and perceived.

If the Individual Is not aware of anything In creation then what's left to be aware of . Perhaps to be aware of awareness he hee .

😉 Again, No. To be aware "of" any "thing" is the dualistic mind creating "other". BEing the Awareness/Concsciousness/Oneness (no word can really describe it) simply is, without it trying to be aware of something "other" or indeed itself, for that "self" is a creation.

I don't feel consciousness exists In a placeless place (beyond mind) that has no-thing for "anyone" to be conscious of . You cannot even be "self - conscious" because the self Is no more either . ha hha .

A "place" is relative i.e. it cannot exist without a reference points. That reference point is an"other" place, so once we have more than One, we are talking dualism. The mind likes to tell us that a placeless place (to use your phrase) cannot exist but this is because it is attached to dualism and almost has a fear (for want of a better word) of it, such that it sees such a thing as being negative. All these fears are creations of the mind and simply are not true, by virtue of the fact we can observe them come and go. The "placeless place" doesn't mean that we lose everything, but that everything is considered as the One. The "placeless place" is inclusive of All places, just without differentiation of one from "other". You are correct though, there wouldn't even be "self consciousness" for that very same reason.

That's why I can relate to those that speak of there "being nothing there" In the "void" (not even light) but all of what we are which Is the everything Is still present within that nothingness .

Absolutely spot on. When you label something you create it as seperate, but it has been created from no"thing".

All Love and Reiki Hugs

Still there, part of everything that is all One, just not differentiated into seperate parts to be able to compare one part to another and see them as different. As I said above, to be able to identify something needs something "other" to compare it against. So, it's not really that the universe disappears, but that the dualistic concept of one being seperate from the universe disappears.... we are at One with the universe, thus the universe is awareness and awareness simply is... because it cannot be aware of itself as something that is "other".

All Love and Reiki Hugs

Hi Giles .

I agree that the universe was still present . Whilst there remains an Individual that allows the observation of It - It will remain to be In existence .

I would say that the universe Is aware but awareness Is just a tool as consciousness Is .

I love this analogy so bare with me .

The sun Is the source of what we are . The suns rays Is our awareness . You cannot separate the suns rays from the sun as like you cannot separate the painting from the artist .

A window Is our consciousness . A room Is the self within mind whilst experiencing life within our universe .

So this room has a window of consciousness that will allow the knowing of the self to be so . Consciousness Is the means that can allow the suns rays of awareness to shine upon the self . The clearer the window will result In the more light that can shine upon the self . The more awareness one has of the self the more of the self can be realized until a point where the self will no longer be .

I could relate to this analogy after I had my realizations .

So Awareness, Consciousness, the universe, and the self are all Interconnected as being a part of the same one source .

So when you mentioned the universe is awareness and awareness simply is .

I see that the universe Is also awareness but In reference to analogy of the painter and his painting I would say that the universe represents the painters mindful creation . There must be more to being at one with the painting . The universe Is of the mind .

To remain In awareness of the mindful universe must mean that something Is still of the mind to be aware of the awareness of It . Not that there’s anything wrong with that . (lol) .

You have written a great deal here In this thread Giles . I will be working on It for days (lol) . I have enjoyed your thoughts on It .

x dazzle x

I agree that the universe was still present . Whilst there remains an Individual that allows the observation of It - It will remain to be In existence .

I would say that the universe Is aware but awareness Is just a tool as consciousness Is .

I love this analogy so bare with me .

The sun Is the source of what we are . The suns rays Is our awareness . You cannot separate the suns rays from the sun as like you cannot separate the painting from the artist .

A window Is our consciousness . A room Is the self within mind whilst experiencing life within our universe .

So this room has a window of consciousness that will allow the knowing of the self to be so . Consciousness Is the means that can allow the suns rays of awareness to shine upon the self . The clearer the window will result In the more light that can shine upon the self . The more awareness one has of the self the more of the self can be realized until a point where the self will no longer be .

I could relate to this analogy after I had my realizations .

So Awareness, Consciousness, the universe, and the self are all Interconnected as being a part of the same one source .

So when you mentioned the universe is awareness and awareness simply is .

Indeed. Whenever we "label" something we seperate it.
When we reach that state where we are comepletely at One (or as "advaita" means... Not Two, because One implies "other") with everything the labels also become at One and nothing (or no "thing") is seperate and as such no "thing" exists.

I see that the universe Is also awareness but In reference to analogy of the painter and his painting I would say that the universe represents the painters mindful creation . There must be more to being at one with the painting . The universe Is of the mind .

More than being everything? how?

The universe is only of the mind conceptually because our mind has limits and, as such, puts limits on the universe. The word universe means everything that exists together as One ("uni" being One), though the mind cannot comprehend a universe without boundaries.

To remain In awareness of the mindful universe must mean that something Is still of the mind to be aware of the awareness of It. Not that there’s anything wrong with that . (lol) .

LOL.
Well, to be aware of awareness means the awareness you are being aware of is not true awareness, because if you can be aware of it, you can't be it. We can only be conceptually aware of true awareness by virtue of the fact we are aware of "other" in a dualistic sense. Let go of the attachments to dualism and the awareness simly Is, though we wouldn't be aware if it being aware.

You have written a great deal here In this thread Giles . I will be working on It for days (lol) . I have enjoyed your thoughts on It .

I have also enjoyed your question, and your thoughts in response to my thoughts. 😉

Would be interesting to hear someone elses view. Anybody? :rolleyes:

All Love and Reiki Hugs

More than being everything? how?

What I mean Is Giles Is that It Is most difficult to ascertain what everything contains (and doesn’t contain) . he ehe

Who’s not to say that our universe only contains “an aspect” of everything and nothing and that there Is more to what we are than that Is being Interconnected with what has been created as the universe that we see / feel / know .

Who’s not to say that this universal experience being had Is just a smoke screen for what Is real . We have touched upon dream states and illusions In various other threads haven’t we .

I feel that It Is only when we shut our eyes to this world will we then see clearly . Of course not through the eyes that are of our senses . (lol) .

If anyone say’s that our Infinite universe contains all that Is or Is all that Is, In one respect that Idea / conclusion will bring with It limitations In respect to what we know as to what Is limitless ha haaha .

I remember sitting at home gobsmacked Giles after a realization when I realized that what I thought and knew to be what was peace, joy, the self or what we are and to what Is love for example - Is nowhere near the mark .

Anything we can experience through our energy bodies and anything that we can know via our Intellectual mind will not contain a real enough essence of what Is so to speak .

So when we try and understand what we are In relation to everything and nothing that Is of our universe unless we are realizing what that Is from a beyond the ordinary mind state then we will keep falling short of the truth . . (of course truth In one respect Is also just another concept) .

When I mentioned beyond mind perhaps some may relate to that as a state of being that was prior to the birth of consciousness .

x daz x

Who’s not to say that our universe only contains “an aspect” of everything and nothing and that there Is more to what we are than that Is being Interconnected with what has been created as the universe that we see / feel / know .

I know what you're saying. When I refer to Universe, I mean... everything! including those things we are not mindful of.

Who’s not to say that this universal experience being had Is just a smoke screen for what Is real . We have touched upon dream states and illusions In various other threads haven’t we .

I suspect you would like the book (if you haven't already read it)...

[url]Flatland: A Romance of Many Dimensions Dover Thrift: Amazon.co.uk: Edwin Abbott: Books[/url]

An old one, and not a long one, but well described and thought provoking. 😉

I feel that It Is only when we shut our eyes to this world will we then see clearly . Of course not through the eyes that are of our senses . (lol) .

Absolutely.

If anyone say’s that our Infinite universe contains all that Is or Is all that Is, In one respect that Idea / conclusion will bring with It limitations In respect to what we know as to what Is limitless ha haaha .

Yep. To consider the universe in mind is to place limits on it. As I say, the mind cannot truly comprehend the infinity of everything, because it requires the infinity of everything to BE aware of it (without actually being aware if you know what I mean) hehe.

I remember sitting at home gobsmacked Giles after a realization when I realized that what I thought and knew to be what was peace, joy, the self or what we are and to what Is love for example - Is nowhere near the mark .

Anything we can experience through our energy bodies and anything that we can know via our Intellectual mind will not contain a real enough essence of what Is so to speak .

Completely agree. We can only BE it, but we cannot put that into words.

So when we try and understand what we are In relation to everything and nothing that Is of our universe unless we are realizing what that Is from a beyond the ordinary mind state then we will keep falling short of the truth . . (of course truth In one respect Is also just another concept) .

Yep, limits of words and minds. Pain in the **** but we can't do much about that.

When I mentioned beyond mind perhaps some may relate to that as a state of being that was prior to the birth of consciousness .

Not sure about that myself. I think we need to differentiate between the consciousness of the waking state and the One consciousness that is awareness or whatever we want to call it.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

Not sure about that myself. I think we need to differentiate between the consciousness of the waking state and the One consciousness that is awareness or whatever we want to call it.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

Or perhaps Giles one needs to ascertain / understand why consciousness exists .

Many understand that everything In life has a signature / purpose to their existence .

What Is the purpose of consciousness . I would say that consciousnesses purpose Is to allow what we are to be conscious of our mindful experience that will allow us to be self conscious within mind .

Prior to our universal experience there was no-thing to be conscious of .

x dazzle x

Hi Daz

Or perhaps Giles one needs to ascertain / understand why consciousness exists .

Many understand that everything In life has a signature / purpose to their existence .

What Is the purpose of consciousness . I would say that consciousnesses purpose Is to allow what we are to be conscious of our mindful experience that will allow us to be self conscious within mind .

Prior to our universal experience there was no-thing to be conscious of .

it appears that you have not yet encountered pure consciousness outside of the physical or you have not conceived it in its entirety!

You might find it helpful to move your awayness beyond the physical restraints of this physicality and seek consciousness on another level or in a different form (pure creative consciousness) from what you currently perceive consciousness to be. 😉

Hi Daz

it appears that you have not yet encountered pure consciousness outside of the physical or you have not conceived it in its entirety!

You might find it helpful to move your awayness beyond the physical restraints of this physicality and seek consciousness on another level or in a different form (pure creative consciousness) from what you currently perceive consciousness to be. 😉

Hi Paul .

it appears that you have not yet encountered pure consciousness outside of the physical or you have not conceived it in its entirety!

Thanks for your thoughts / contribution to the thread . It’s no longer the Daz and Giles show . 🙂

I am not following your line of thought In reference to my thoughts put forward to Giles .

When I mentioned that consciousness allows one to be self conscious - my take on the self Is not of the physical . The self being what we are within mind .

We cannot know thyself without being conscious would you agree .

Therefore I would say consciousnesses purpose Is so that we can become conscious of what we are In mind . To be self conscious means that you are conscious of everything being a part of the same self .

You might find it helpful to move your awayness beyond the physical restraints of this physicality and seek consciousness on another level or in a different form (pure creative consciousness) from what you currently perceive consciousness to be.

You might want to look over a previous post that I made In this thread that refered to my experience where the self / universe disappeared Paul . I think that counts as being removed / unattached and not restrained by the energy fields / mind-sets that are attributed to the physical . 🙂

When certain realizations come to the fore the universe and along with that "the self" can disappear also - so I understand why many say that our mindful universe and anything that's In connection with It Is an illusion, but I also understand that If what we are Is real then anything created by what we are will contain that same essence of realness . So therefore perhaps everything Is real on some level .

x dazzle x

Hi Daz

When I mentioned that consciousness allows one to be self conscious - my take on the self Is not of the physical . The self being what we are within mind .

The thinking mind is only created within this existence, we have no use for it in within our natural state of pure consciousness within the oneness of consciousness. 🙂

Therefore I would say consciousnesses purpose Is so that we can become conscious of what we are In mind . To be self conscious means that you are conscious of everything being a part of the same self .

No. that is how we perceive self within this physical reality, the thinking mind in which we analyse our experiences here, is the tip of the iceberg in relation to the whole of consciousness which we create in order to experience this reality, for every thought which we use within our thinking mind, we have thousands of thoughts happening simultaneously within our other aspects of consciousness.

We are still a being of pure consciousness when we are not visiting this reality, within the oneness of consciousness, there is no need for individual recognition outside of the whole, all is one. 😉

You might want to look over a previous post that I made In this thread that refered to my experience where the self / universe disappeared Paul . I think that counts as being removed / unattached and not restrained by the energy fields / mind-sets that are attributed to the physical .

Yes, but you then need to connect with what is there, we don't disappear and neither does the universe disappear or become unattached, there is no separateness within the oneness, only completeness. 🙂

Hi Daz

Hi Paul . Interesting thoughts here . 🙂

The thinking mind is only created within this existence, we have no use for it in within our natural state of pure consciousness within the oneness of consciousness.

I agree that that there Is a (state) for use of a better word where there Is an absence of thought . In essence one can remain In mind and have a clear mind so to speak and I would say that beyond mind there are no thoughts to be had (for who Is It that’s thinking) ..

You mention the thinking mind Is only created within this existence . All of “one pure consciousness” was created within our mindful existence along with our “created universe” . Consciousness was born Into existence In order for what we are to be be conscious of It . The physical needs the brain In order to function . Consciousness allows what we are to function within mind . Some say that the mind Is consciousness and I can understand that because we cannot separate anything within mind .

No. that is how we perceive self within this physical reality, the thinking mind in which we analyse our experiences here, is the tip of the iceberg in relation to the whole of consciousness which we create in order to experience this reality, for every thought which we use within our thinking mind, we have thousands of thoughts happening simultaneously within our other aspects of consciousness.

We are still a being of pure consciousness when we are not visiting this reality, within the oneness of consciousness, there is no need for individual recognition outside of the whole, all is one.

Ah this Is where we differ paul . You mention “there is no need for individual recognition outside of the whole, all is one” and yet It still happens . I don’t see that Individuality Is outside of the one . To be Individual means that You and I (as we are demonstrating here) to the other Individuals on this forum that we can differ In our understandings of the mind although you and I are one .

Individuality allows unique experience / expression to be had . The mind allows the illusory daz to realize the self without that having a direct Impact / effect on say the illusory Tony Blair (lol) .

Yes, but you then need to connect with what is there, we don't disappear and neither does the universe disappear or become unattached, there is no separateness within the oneness, only completeness.

What disappears paul Is the awareness that It exists and the awareness that someone exists .

For who Is then present to be conscious of the world when one’s conscious self goes beyond mind and dissolves any Identity and attachments to the physical universe .

Who senses can then sense the world around us . Who’s eyes can see the sunrise? Who Is present to feel the ant crawling upon one’s foot etc . .etc . .

x dazzle x

Or perhaps Giles one needs to ascertain / understand why consciousness exists .

Many understand that everything In life has a signature / purpose to their existence .

Correction... many people's minds tell them that there has to be a purpose. Why must there be a reason that consciousness exists?

For consciousness to have a 'reason' for existing, would be to it has a purpose "other" than just Being consciousness.... uh oh... there's that "other" dualism again. 😉

What Is the purpose of consciousness . I would say that consciousnesses purpose Is to allow what we are to be conscious of our mindful experience that will allow us to be self conscious within mind.

You are dualising (is that a word? 😀 ) again.

I think perhaps this is stemming from the word consciousness, and the minds way of trying to see it as something that can see like the senses. As we've already said, words can be limiting, so the term consciousness doesn't always refer to the same thing and we have to understand it's context.

Prior to our universal experience there was no-thing to be conscious of .

Why prior? hehe!

Let me give you a little food for thought...
(This is based on an understanding realized during the The Tube experiment from the Headless Way ([url]The Tube[/url]) when I attended a days workshop with Richard Lang)

If I were to look at you, you would be completely within my awareness.
If you were to look at me, I would be completely within your awareness.

Start by considering that at a purely two person physical level and then extrapolate that to include all things that you are aware of.

In mathematical terms you could look at this as Sets.

Set A is completely within Set B

+-----------------------+
|...+-----------------+.|
|.B.|.A...............|.|
|...+-----------------+.|
+-----------------------+

Set B is completely within Set A

+-----------------------+
|...+-----------------+.|
|.A.|.B...............|.|
|...+-----------------+.|
+-----------------------+

But if you try and consider both statements to be true at the same time then you could try and draw it, but you will fail to draw A inside B and B inside A at the same time... unless you do this...

+-----------------------+
|.......................|
|........A.....B........|
|.......................|
+-----------------------+

Showing that A and B are fully inclusive of each other.... they are One and the same.

Now, if you extrapolate that to be anything in awareness, then you find that everything becomes One and the same. It's not possible for any one thing to be in the awareness of an "other" whilst at the same time the "other" being in the awareness of that one thing, unless they are considered to be all inclusive of each other, and hence all One. Dualism disappears.

Now you may look at that and say "but what about everything that is outside that Set?"... but anything outside the set is also something in awareness and therefore is included in the Set... so ultimately the set looks like this...

...everything (and no "thing")...

without any boundaries.

Mathematically proven Oneness. 😉

All Love and Reiki Hugs

Hi Gaz

You are still analysing through the thinking mind, we have to move beyond the stillness of the thinking mind that we embrace in order to get into our other aspects of consciousness and the oneness. 🙂

Consciousness was born Into existence In order for what we are to be be conscious of It .

No. that is how you are attempting to get a handle upon it, consciousness exists outside of time and distance, all is one.

The physical needs the brain In order to function .

No. the body needs the brain in order to function and walk and talk etc, plants have consciousness, but they do not require a brain, the planet has consciousness as does the physical universe and any other realities that are in existence, but they do not require a brain to function, only consciousness.

Consciousness allows what we are to function within mind . Some say that the mind Is consciousness and I can understand that because we cannot separate anything within mind .

No. the mind allows us to perceive consciousness if we are prepared to look beyond our physicality and embrace that which lies outside of our physical perceptions, consciousness has always been there and will always be there, irrespective of the constraint of our thinking mind.

We ask ourselves questions all of the time and we can argue and disagree with ourselves because we contain different aspects of consciousness within the wholeness of self that allows us to function within this physicality.

Our lower sub or memory consciousness is different to our thinking consciousness, just as our higher consciousness is again different to our thinking mind, we work with seven aspects of consciousness within our healing model and outside of the constraints of the energy matrix which we employ here we encounter another aspect of consciousness which is the oneness.

The oneness is not still and empty, move beyond the stillness that you encountered and you will find something else, all is one.

Correction... many people's minds tell them that there has to be a purpose. Why must there be a reason that consciousness exists?

For consciousness to have a 'reason' for existing, would be to it has a purpose "other" than just Being consciousness.... uh oh... there's that "other" dualism again.

Hi Giles .

There are no coincidences In life Giles . The sun for example Is a source of life to most beings on our planet . The sun has a purpose . Every planet, plant, mineral, element etc, has a purpose that Interacts / entwines with all that Is within our environment . Consciousness and awareness has It’s place In all of that mix .

Is It by chance that what we are can observe the universe by means of being consciously aware .

You are dualising (is that a word? ) again.

Oh my . Don’t tell anybody . I won’t If you don’t . he hee .

I think perhaps this is stemming from the word consciousness, and the minds way of trying to see it as something that can see like the senses. As we've already said, words can be limiting, so the term consciousness doesn't always refer to the same thing and we have to understand it's context.

Yer I agree about limitation etc , ,

Why prior? hehe!

Well of course (lol) . I suppose one must ascertain the first moment where as an Individual they became conscious of something on some level . I see the birth of our universe as therefore having something to be conscious of In some shape or form be It an atom acknowledging their own existence somehow or an atom acknowledging another atom or whatever (lol) .

Showing that A and B are fully inclusive of each other.... they are One and the same.

Now, if you extrapolate that to be anything in awareness, then you find that everything becomes One and the same. It's not possible for any one thing to be in the awareness of an "other" whilst at the same time the "other" being in the awareness of that one thing, unless they are considered to be all inclusive of each other, and hence all One. Dualism disappears.

Now you may look at that and say "but what about everything that is outside that Set?"... but anything outside the set is also something in awareness and therefore is included in the Set... so ultimately the set looks like this...

...everything (and no "thing")...

without any boundaries.

Mathematically proven Oneness.

I agree that everything becomes One and the same and thanks for the maths lesson by the way . I kind of touched on my views on Individuality where although we are all the same there Is an Individual experience happening and there Is Individual growth occurring although we are all one . I can still have an Individual mind-set whilst having realized that Giles Is an illusion of sorts In that he Isn’t separate from Dazzle .

x dazzle x

There are no coincidences In life Giles . The sun for example Is a source of life to most beings on our planet . The sun has a purpose.

Conceptually in mind yes. But if the planets around the Sun ceased to be (floated off into the distances of outer space for example), then the Sun would continue to BE, even though these supposed "purposes" are no longer there. It is the mind that creates "purpose".

Every planet, plant, mineral, element etc, has a purpose that Interacts / entwines with all that Is within our environment . Consciousness and awareness has It’s place In all of that mix.

Only if you see consciousness/awareness as something "other" than everything.

Is It by chance that what we are can observe the universe by means of being consciously aware.

Let's not mix up the conscious awareness through the mind/brain/senses with that complete awareness that is everything there is.

Well of course (lol) . I suppose one must ascertain the first moment where as an Individual they became conscious of something on some level . I see the birth of our universe as therefore having something to be conscious of In some shape or form be It an atom acknowledging their own existence somehow or an atom acknowledging another atom or whatever (lol) .

Limits, limits, limits... hehe! Why does there have to have been a "first moment"? Couldn't it have always been?

I agree that everything becomes One and the same and thanks for the maths lesson by the way . I kind of touched on my views on Individuality where although we are all the same there Is an Individual experience happening and there Is Individual growth occurring although we are all one . I can still have an Individual mind-set whilst having realized that Giles Is an illusion of sorts In that he Isn’t separate from Dazzle .

😉

All Love and Reiki Hugs

You are still analysing through the thinking mind, we have to move beyond the stillness of the thinking mind that we embrace in order to get into our other aspects of consciousness and the oneness.

Hi Paul .

I am conversing with you paul using my Intellectual mind In trying to explain my experiences had that were beyond the ordinary thinking mind . You are doing likewise I presume . How does one converse without allowing the Intellectual mind to express In order to communicate . I am not trying to solve any unanswered questions of our universe by ways of thinking up an answer to those questions .

No. that is how you are attempting to get a handle upon it, consciousness exists outside of time and distance, all is one..

You are attempting to get your own handle on It Paul . 🙂 Are you coming from the Intellectual mind In your understandings of the mindful universe . I have also expressed my thoughts In relation to the now experience that’s beyond time and space etc . .

No. the body needs the brain in order to function and walk and talk etc, plants have consciousness, but they do not require a brain, the planet has consciousness as does the physical universe and any other realities that are in existence, but they do not require a brain to function, only consciousness.

When I mentioned physical I assumed that “physical represented the body In this Instance” apologies for my Interpretation .

You cannot compare a plants conscious existence / experience of life to that of a humans paul . A plant I would say cannot realize God or what they truly are .

No. the mind allows us to perceive consciousness if we are prepared to look beyond our physicality and embrace that which lies outside of our physical perceptions, consciousness has always been there and will always be there, irrespective of the constraint of our thinking mind.

Why say No paul . I haven’t said anything to the contrary . I have said “Consciousness allows what we are to function within mind” Perhaps you think that my Interpretation of what we are In the mind Is of the physical mind body??

x dazzle x

Conceptually in mind yes. But if the planets around the Sun ceased to be (floated off into the distances of outer space for example), then the Sun would continue to BE, even though these supposed "purposes" are no longer there. It is the mind that creates "purpose".

Hi Giles .

We can only speak of what Is Giles . The sun Is In our sky at present bringing a source of life to our planet . If the sun no longer shines within our skies then the suns purpose would no longer be to sustain life on our planet .

Yes the mind creates purpose and there was a purpose In the creation of the mind .. For there to be experiences had In / of the mind we need to have ways to sustain life In order for the physical body to maintain It’s function / connection with what we are within our mindful environment . So the blue print / design of our creative universe would of had everything In place and In order for life to evolve naturally .

The universe didn’t create It’s self by accident or by chance I would say . Don’t ask me to prove It though ehhehe

Only if you see consciousness/awareness as something "other" than everything.

Of course . But everything has taken on an Individual form or a formless form In order to experience life In many many ways . We can retain Individuality whilst being In/of the realization that all Is one within mind . As to like I can still identify that what I am Is In/of a physical experience whilst acknowledging that a tree Is having a tree experience although I am the tree and the tree Is me .

Let's not mix up the conscious awareness through the mind/brain/senses with that complete awareness that is everything there is.

I wasn’t mixing anything up . We can be consciously aware without using any physical mind-body senses . What I meant was It Is no accident that what we are can observe life and observe what we are via the means of consciousness and awareness .

Do you think that It was pure luck or by chance that consciousness allows what we are to be self conscious .

Limits, limits, limits... hehe! Why does there have to have been a "first moment"? Couldn't it have always been?

I would say what we are has always been .

x dazzle x

Hi Daz

I am conversing with you paul using my Intellectual mind In trying to explain my experiences had that were beyond the ordinary thinking mind . You are doing likewise I presume . How does one converse without allowing the Intellectual mind to express In order to communicate . I am not trying to solve any unanswered questions of our universe by ways of thinking up an answer to those questions .

By just being.

You are attempting to get your own handle on It Paul . 🙂 Are you coming from the Intellectual mind In your understandings of the mindful universe . I have also expressed my thoughts In relation to the now experience that’s beyond time and space etc .

My everyday intellectual thinking mind does not know how to rationalise the vastness of the oneness as it has nothing to compare it with, but there is another aspect of my consciousness which embraces and understands that which my mind can not comprehend within its limitations.

You cannot compare a plants conscious existence / experience of life to that of a humans paul . A plant I would say cannot realize God or what they truly are .

Plants are an integral aspect of the oneness of consciousness, just the same as we are, they feel and communicate with each other through consciousness which few human beings have learnt to do, so what is to stop them from creating a plant god in exactly the same way that human beings have been creating gods for millions of years?

Why say No paul . I haven’t said anything to the contrary . I have said “Consciousness allows what we are to function within mind” Perhaps you think that my Interpretation of what we are In the mind Is of the physical mind body??

Because our everyday analytical thinking mind is created to allow us to experience this physicality, its function is to work through our ego interface so that we can interpret the physical reality through our physical senses, it is limited in what it can comprehend and analyse, we need to shift into our higher consciousness if we want to comprehend consciousness outside of the physical.

Hi Daz

By just being.

Hi Paul .

Oh .. I can understand a state of "being" paul for sure . My experience of being was beyond the ordinary thinking mind . When I try and speak of what Is beyond comprehension and to what a state of being Is like using words for example I will then use my Intellectual aspect of my Individual mind to try and make sense and explain of what Is beyond sense using the most appropriate words that are at my disposal .

So are you saying when you converse with others on this forum you are In a state of being and you are not coming from "or" Interfacing with an Intellectual aspect of your Individual mind .

My everyday intellectual thinking mind does not know how to rationalise the vastness of the oneness as it has nothing to compare it with, but there is another aspect of my consciousness which embraces and understands that which my mind can not comprehend within its limitations.

Yes I agree and understand that . 🙂 The aspect of consciousness that can know thyself for example Is not Intellectually based . When we try and convey what knowing the self Is like we have to re-engage with the Intellect just like we do when we turn on our t.v. or our computer to log In .

An Individual like Ramana Maharshi was close to “being” whilst In experience of the flesh and he lost his Identity and connection with the material world - LOL - There Is no way that he could get dressed, drive a car to the office make a cup of tea and log on to healthy pages whilst being In a state of being . heh heh eh .

Plants are an integral aspect of the oneness of consciousness, just the same as we are, they feel and communicate with each other through consciousness which few human beings have learnt to do, so what is to stop them from creating a plant god in exactly the same way that human beings have been creating gods for millions of years?

Absolutely agree again . I was speaking of the connection of the human physical body and It’s connection with the brain and I was speaking of "what we are" needs consciousness to know the self . A plant doesn’t need / have the same blue print as a human because It will not vibrate as energy In the same way that a human being does that allows a level of experience had that Is beyond the reach of that of a plant .

Because our everyday analytical thinking mind is created to allow us to experience this physicality, its function is to work through our ego interface so that we can interpret the physical reality through our physical senses, it is limited in what it can comprehend and analyse, we need to shift into our higher consciousness if we want to comprehend consciousness outside of the physical.

Yes our everyday analytical thinking mind is created to allow us to experience this physicality, and our other aspects of mind Is created to see the physical world for what It Is . The ordinary mind will keep an Individual within a bubble of materialism whereas the universal mind / higher mind will allow what we are to Integrate the bigger picture as you have mentioned for yourself that you are In a state of being when you converse with us when speaking of consciousness and speaking of the universe . 🙂

x dazzle x

Hi Daz

So are you saying when you converse with others on this forum you are In a state of being and you are not coming from "or" Interfacing with an Intellectual aspect of your Individual mind .

If I want to know something, then I have to bring my thinking mind into the equation ask a question, the same as I would ask you a question, but what I receive back is not an answer like I would get from you that I can analyse within my everyday thinking aspect of consciousness, it comes in through my higher consciousness and that gives my thinking mind an impression or a concept which my thinking mind has to try and interpret.

That works fine for me, for I have always thought conceptually, the problems start when I want to convey the conceptual understanding to someone else. 😉

Otherwise when I set time aside to meditate, often the thinking mind and lower aspects of consciousness are taken out of the equation and I merge with the oneness, within the completeness of the Now, I just allow myself to be and enjoy the experience. 🙂

Yes I agree and understand that . 🙂 The aspect of consciousness that can know thyself for example Is not Intellectually based . When we try and convey what knowing the self Is like we have to re-engage with the Intellect just like we do when we turn on our t.v. or our computer to log In .

I think that depends on which aspect of self we are knowing self from.

Our ego interface which we create our physical self perception of I am, is driven by our our physical aspects of our individual self and the way that we choose to perceive self within the thinking aspect of consciousness.

This form of self, usually revolves around the attachments that we form to the things which we do and the actions which we perform, if we ask someone what they are and they answer with I am a plumber, teacher, parent etc, then they are perceiving themselves through their lower I am.

But our higher aspect of consciousness has another interpretation of our true authentic self, which it tries to utilise to help us to become true to self, but then I get a different sense of self from within the oneness than I do from my higher self which is contained within my matrix of consciousness in the here and now.

I hope that makes sense.

Yes our everyday analytical thinking mind is created to allow us to experience this physicality, and our other aspects of mind Is created to see the physical world for what It Is . The ordinary mind will keep an Individual within a bubble of materialism whereas the universal mind / higher mind will allow what we are to Integrate the bigger picture as you have mentioned for yourself that you are In a state of being when you converse with us when speaking of consciousness and speaking of the universe .

Ah, I see the problem I am having with the way that you are using the word mind, the way I perceive the aspect of consciousness which we call the mind is as a separate entity than the other aspects of consciousness, the higher consciousness, is not an aspect of the thinking mind, the lower memory or subconsciousness in not an aspect of the everyday thinking aspect of consciousness which we call the mind, the ego interface is not an aspect of the thinking mind, the core way of being in not an aspect of the thinking mind and the brain which is the central processor of the body is not a form of consciousness the same as the other aspects are (thought it interacts through our ego interface with our aspects of consciousness) so it is not an aspect of the thinking mind.

We can get an sense of our aspects of self within our thinking mind and when we have inner balance and harmony then they can interact with each other the way that they are supposed to, but the thinking mind performs one function, whilst the other aspects of consciousness perform other functions, if we had one mind, then we could not disagree with self, we could not receive fresh inspirational intuition or concepts which we had not encounters before, we could not perceive ourselves in different ways, we could not create different personalities with different physical attributes to each personality etc.

Yes the whole being is one but the one is made up of individual aspects of self.

Hi Daz

If I want to know something, then I have to bring my thinking mind into the equation ask a question, the same as I would ask you a question, but what I receive back is not an answer like I would get from you that I can analyse within my everyday thinking aspect of consciousness, it comes in through my higher consciousness and that gives my thinking mind an impression or a concept which my thinking mind has to try and interpret.

That works fine for me, for I have always thought conceptually, the problems start when I want to convey the conceptual understanding to someone else. 😉

Otherwise when I set time aside to meditate, often the thinking mind and lower aspects of consciousness are taken out of the equation and I merge with the oneness, within the completeness of the Now, I just allow myself to be and enjoy the experience. 🙂

Hi Paul .

I understand the process where Information filters through from one mind set to another where we are In essence becoming a channel for our own true self or higher self as some like to call It . I would say that there Is only self though and It’s to whether our particular mind set allows the self to express or not Is the key factor .

My understanding differs from yours In regards to what you refer to as being the thinking mind and what functions are attributed to It . I would say we cannot function In the physical world without Interacting with the thinking mind on some level . I would not be able to type what It Is that I am writing now without having an Intellectual understanding of how Individual letters form words that can be hopefully understood by someone else and have an understanding of how I can connect these words In a way that can then be displayed In a way that can be read by those logged on to healthypages .

All of that Is made possible because of the Intellectual part of mind . The aspect of mind where self can know/realize self doesn’t know what words and computers are . . . If one starts to remember and begins to comprehend such things then they are back within a mind set that Is of the thinking mind .

Like I said when I had my realizations there was no awareness of the universe let alone having an understanding of how to log on to a computer . There was no awareness of understandings of what the self or God Is because there Is no-thing present to make any evaluations .

I think that depends on which aspect of self we are knowing self from.

Our ego interface which we create our physical self perception of I am, is driven by our our physical aspects of our individual self and the way that we choose to perceive self within the thinking aspect of consciousness.

This form of self, usually revolves around the attachments that we form to the things which we do and the actions which we perform, if we ask someone what they are and they answer with I am a plumber, teacher, parent etc, then they are perceiving themselves through their lower I am.

But our higher aspect of consciousness has another interpretation of our true authentic self, which it tries to utilise to help us to become true to self, but then I get a different sense of self from within the oneness than I do from my higher self which is contained within my matrix of consciousness in the here and now.

I hope that makes sense.

Yes great point Paul .

You have to “be” your-self In order to know the self so If you are not (lets say) In expression of the self then the aspect of mind from where you are In evaluation of that self will not be a true reflection so to speak . I would say that the aspect of mind that allows the knowing of self Is an aspect of being In a not-knowing state he he heh . ( I just love contradictions) . . .

Yep I agree with your ego explanation and also how a different sense of self Is realized when other aspects of consciousness enters the fore . (If that’s what you meant)

Ah, I see the problem I am having with the way that you are using the word mind, the way I perceive the aspect of consciousness which we call the mind is as a separate entity than the other aspects of consciousness, the higher consciousness, is not an aspect of the thinking mind, the lower memory or subconsciousness in not an aspect of the everyday thinking aspect of consciousness which we call the mind, the ego interface is not an aspect of the thinking mind, the core way of being in not an aspect of the thinking mind and the brain which is the central processor of the body is not a form of consciousness the same as the other aspects are (thought it interacts through our ego interface with our aspects of consciousness) so it is not an aspect of the thinking mind.

We can get an sense of our aspects of self within our thinking mind and when we have inner balance and harmony then they can interact with each other the way that they are supposed to, but the thinking mind performs one function, whilst the other aspects of consciousness perform other functions, if we had one mind, then we could not disagree with self, we could not receive fresh inspirational intuition or concepts which we had not encounters before, we could not perceive ourselves in different ways, we could not create different personalities with different physical attributes to each personality etc.

Yes the whole being is one but the one is made up of individual aspects of self.

Yer no worries paul . 🙂 We probably have a different take on the mind the soul the self and to What Is or Isn’t God, Reality, illusions . .. ha haha haha .

I see the mind as the total environment as to where any form or formless energy can be conscious or aware or both . Consciousness In my eyes Is an aspect of the mind just as daz Is, the trees are, the sun Is, the sky Is, and the easter bunny Is . An Individual essence of what we are that some relate to as being the soul Is having an experience within mind (or of the mind) as Giles correctly mentions there Is not really an Inner or an outer that Is of the mind .

Now each Individual essence of the whole can Individually evolve through many forms and processes within life experiences had where they can transcend many mind sets that will eventually allow the realization of what they are within mind . Of course beyond mind there Is no-one / no-thing to realize . This Is where I feel true - being exists . No-one (to be) being anything “just being” .

x daz x