RE: Should smoking be banned in public?

Dr L,

This seems as if you are attacking people for having an opposing view to yours, quoting passages and taking them out of context, without properly understanding what is being said. This could be construed as dogmatic and rude behaviour, and is not acceptable.

Patsy.

RE: Should smoking be banned in public?

ORIGINAL: songstress

This seems as if you are attacking people for having an opposing view to yours

I'm not attacking anybody I'm just disagreeing with your support for smoking, if that's allowed.

quoting passages and taking them out of context

What exactly am I supposed to have taken out of context?

without properly understanding what is being said.

Please enlighten me as to what I have misunderstood. I think I have generally understood with what you have said, it's just that I don't agree with it.

This could be construed as dogmatic and rude behaviour, and is not acceptable.

Please tell me what I have said that is dogmatic and rude. [sm=scratchchin.gif]

Dr L

RE: Should smoking be banned in public?

Hi All,

I have to say that Patsy's comment about the 'Health Police' kinda rings true for me.

I’m not a toxicologist, nor am I specialist in the dangers of Smoking and/or passive smoking… nor indeed am I doctor however, I am an individual with a deep interest in learning how to ease the diseases of people in any way shape or form that is effective. Therefore, whilst I am deeply interested in the debate, I am more so interested in the ‘truth’ …

However, with all the wailing, breast beating and throwing of ‘ash on head’ of the ‘anti-smoking propaganda spin machine’ it’s becoming increasingly hard to hear oneself think rationally let alone come to a calm objective opinion. The wailing and angry finger pointing is so scathing & vociferous that reasonable voices (and scientific studies that show a contrary conclusion) are frankly either drowned out or fashionably suppressed.

Whilst there can be no doubt that ‘smoking’ per se is dangerous and lets face it who am I to make any suggestions as to the ‘real’ effects of passive smoking one way or the other (as I’m clearly not qualified) I do feel that the self righteous ‘wailing & finger pointing’ is getting somewhat tedious and quite irksome - it reminds me of the cowering Indian kid outside the ‘French huts’ (in a school in Hayes Middx in the particularly ‘paki-bashing’ phase of 1973) surrounded by people that I had thought were fairly OK and well balanced shouting things at him like “you people stink” & “you’re all filth” just before they laid into him and left him in a bloody sobbing pile.

So, in order to bring some balance to the ‘question’ lets consider another substance that’s used and abused in this country for a minute and here are some stats for it:

Number of road casualties related to this substance in Britain in 2002 - 302,000
Cost of abuse of this substance in Britain - £3.3 billion (yes billion)
Cost to the NHS caused by abuse of this substance - £1.7 billion (yes I said billion again)
Number of working days lost to abuse of this substance and related illness per year – 17 million
Percentage of related deaths as opposed to total deaths from other illicit drug use – 300%
Cost of clearing up related crime and social problems caused by the abuse of this substance – runs into 10’s of billions
Number of reported violence incidents related to the abuse of this substance per year – 1.2 million
Percentage of related A&E admissions 40% - rising to 70% between midnight & 5am.
Number of Children affected by parents who have problems with this substance – 1.3 million
Number of NHS diagnosed mental and behavioural disorder hospital admissions due to the abuse of this substance – 78,900

So, are we going to ban this stuff? Nahhh!
Will every government in power ensure that it stays freely available to the general public – you betcha!
Why??? – well because 90% of us like to take the stuff (& that’s a lotta votes folks)

So what about the “what causes cancer” debate, if all reports are to be believed, well then pollution causes cancer, roast pork causes cancer, oral sex causes cancer, hair shampoo and washing up liquid cause cancer, mobile phones cause cancer, going on holiday causes cancer etc…etc… hell! Even worrying about cancer – causes cancer!

So, back to smoking, ...Did you know that studies have consistently found that smokers have lower rates of Parkinson's disease? – Nah!

And how about I leave you with this little ‘telling’ quote from one of the most universally respected anti-smoking scientists in the world (and incidentally one of the first 'experts' that established the link between smoking and cancer – and an avid anti-smoking advocate) Professor Sir Richard Doll who said (whilst on radio 4’s ‘Desert Island Discs’) to Sue Lawley “the effects of other people smoking in my presence are so small it doesn’t worry me”.
Hmmmm! Makes ya think eh?

OK, good people I gotta go, but lets not forget:

“Smoking is the Leading Cause of Clinical Trials”

RE: Should smoking be banned in public?

ORIGINAL: rogergarcha

So, in order to bring some balance to the ‘question’ lets consider another substance that’s used and abused in this country for a minute and here are some stats for it...

So, are we going to ban this stuff? Nahhh!
Will every government in power ensure that it stays freely available to the general public – you betcha!
Why??? – well because 90% of us like to take the stuff (& that’s a lotta votes folks)

Ok so I guess I'm in the 10% Anyway as I said above on this thread it's not about prohibition, it's about restricting anti-social behaviour.

So what about the “what causes cancer” debate, if all reports are to be believed, well then pollution causes cancer, roast pork causes cancer, oral sex causes cancer, hair shampoo and washing up liquid cause cancer, mobile phones cause cancer, going on holiday causes cancer etc…etc…

Roger I don't see how any of this is relevant unless you are seriously suggesting that smoking is not a major cause of cancer?? By the way folks in case anyone is thinking that I am some kind of wacky extremist, may I remind y'all that smoking in public bans are now a reality in Ireland, Norway and some parts of the USA and hopefully (as far as I am concerned) coming to the UK in the near future. I predict that more and more countries will go this way in the next 10 years.

Dr L

RE: Should smoking be banned in public?

Patsy, Roger, well said;)

Whilst I agree smoking in public is unacceptable in certain places, i.e. work, restaurants and public transport, what we do at home is our business. The Nanny State, or Big Brother is watching YOU[:'(] and that is also unacceptable.

I also had a relative die of lung cancer who never smoked in her life, whose husband did not smoke and did not work in a smoking environment. I have had a friend die of colon cancer who never ate meat, was a vegetarian all her life and a health fanatic. My grandfather smoked all his life and died at 92 and not of cancer of the lungs.

Tolerance seems the best way here. And a reminder that people get sick for many reasons, some of which seem unexpected and not related to lifestyle at all.

Obviously Dr. Lightbody, you are a fanatical non smoker. This is absolutely right for you on a personal level, but what you are asking is that everyone else think and do the same as you, and this is not what people are made of. We are diverse in character, desires and habits, and that is what makes us unique and interesting.

Let's all just be who we are, and do what we wish to, with a mind to how it also affects other people, and live life, instead of being frightened by it;)

Love

Gillyxxx

RE: Should smoking be banned in public?

ORIGINAL: gillyann

Whilst I agree smoking in public is unacceptable in certain places, i.e. work, restaurants and public transport, what we do at home is our business.

I agree but as I've said this before this is not about prohibition - smoking bans are concerned with public places.

Obviously Dr. Lightbody, you are a fanatical non smoker.

I take that as a compliment.

This is absolutely right for you on a personal level, but what you are asking is that everyone else think and do the same as you, and this is not what people are made of.

I'm not asking for everyone to agree with me - I know that some people especially smokers will be upset by a smoking ban but that's too bad IMO. Some people want a smoking ban and others don't - the government can't please everyone but at the end of the day it's a question of priorities.

Dr L

RE: Should smoking be banned in public?

Hi Dr.L

ORIGINAL: Dr D P Lightbody
Ok so I guess I'm in the 10% Anyway as I said above on this thread it's not about prohibition, it's about restricting anti-social behaviour.
Dr L

Ohhh! OK, but I'm a little surprised that you don’t consider the list that I provided you regarding the vast amount of damage (physical, mental & financial) that alcohol does to both those that do and don’t participate - as somewhat anti-social?? … Fair enough.

ORIGINAL: Dr D P Lightbody
Roger I don't see how any of this is relevant unless you are seriously suggesting that smoking is not a major cause of cancer?? Dr L

Please read my post again DrL, you’ll find that I say “there can be no doubt” that smoking is dangerous.

ORIGINAL: Dr D P Lightbody
By the way folks in case anyone is thinking that I am some kind of wacky extremist, Dr L

I certainly don’t think you’re a ‘wacky extremist’, I happen to think that you always make well reasoned points and arguments, but I do happen to think that many, many people are being a little conned into having their attention diverted away from (what I personally would consider to be) more important issues.

Did you not think that one of the world experts in the 'smoking & cancer' issue saying that “the effects of other people smoking in my presence are so small it doesn’t worry me” - Is at least a little food for thought...

ORIGINAL: Dr D P Lightbody
may I remind y'all that smoking in public bans are now a reality in Ireland, Norway and some parts of the USA and hopefully (as far as I am concerned) coming to the UK in the near future. I predict that more and more countries will go this way in the next 10 years.
Dr L

I have to admit that I’m not (and never have been) convinced that the blanket banning of anything is a clear indication of ‘the right thing to do’ from the global ‘Catholic’ banning of contraception to the ‘ban’ in the recent ‘foot & mouth’ fiasco.

ORIGINAL: Dr D P Lightbody
I predict that more and more countries will go this way in the next 10 years.
Dr L

This, my friend, I don’t doubt, but on a very personal note, it’s not the smoking ban that worries me. Leaving the ‘smoking’ aside; I look at my two small grandsons and can’t help but envisage their ‘grown up world’ where they are bound, managed, gagged and monitored with invisible ‘soul and personality destroying’ chains and shackles. But then I suppose that's a whole different thread eh?

rgds, & peace to you DrL

Roger

RE: Should smoking be banned in public?

Just to add my 2-cents, no, smoking should not be banned - I can think of so many worse things...

RE: Should smoking be banned in public?

I am a smoker myself and i think that the whole subject of banning smoking from public places is totally hipocritical. The government knows that smoking is bad for you and others around you that are breathing in your smoke. and the only thing they can come up with is banning it from public places? I want to give up myself but the thing is i have no insentive to give up. smoking is about the only pleasure i get out of life and it is slowly killing me. If the government is wanting to push to us how bad smoking is and they are constantly pushing people to stop then why dont they just bann it tottally? beceause of the millions of pounds they make every year from those individuals that cant stop. If they banned smoking totally. and stopped the production of ciggarettes in this country and the import of ciggarettes they would be uproar. Yes they would be uproar for the first couple of months whilst everyone is going through the withdraw symptoms. but there would also be help from doctors under the national health to help people come to terms with the loss of something that has been a part of their life for many years. but when the dust has settled give it about 6 months everyone will just totally forget about it. after a year the general public. me included will wonder why we ever started smoking in the first place and why we didn't stop earlier. and in future generations that grow up without smoking being pushed at them they wont even know what a fag is except if you are american LOL But the government will never do this because they would loose too much money. Just shows you that the people that create the laws arn't bothered about the general public but are more bothered about staying in power for another four years and making more money from those of us stupid enough to pay taxes. which is everyone in the country.

RE: Should smoking be banned in public?

ORIGINAL: rogergarcha

Ohhh! OK, but I'm a little surprised that you don’t consider the list that I provided you regarding the vast amount of damage (physical, mental & financial) that alcohol does to both those that do and don’t participate - as somewhat anti-social?? … Fair enough.

Of course I think that alcohol causes enormous problems (that's another thread ;))but I just mean that prohibition is not in the answer for smoking or alcohol or other drugs for that matter. Re the smoking ban people keep mentioning prohibition which just confuses the issue - the government is not considering a total ban but a ban re public places.

Please read my post again DrL, you’ll find that I say “there can be no doubt” that smoking is dangerous.

Ok but you did seem to be trivialising the issue here by saying

ORIGINAL: rogergarcha
if all reports are to be believed...roast pork causes cancer, oral sex causes cancer, hair shampoo and washing up liquid cause cancer... going on holiday causes cancer etc…etc…

While many things are suspected to cause cancer we know for an absolute fact that smoking is a major cause of cancer.

I certainly don’t think you’re a ‘wacky extremist’, I happen to think that you always make well reasoned points and arguments, but I do happen to think that many, many people are being a little conned into having their attention diverted away from (what I personally would consider to be) more important issues.

I'm not saying it's the most important thing in the world but it is important. While we're waiting to solve the big problems (world peace etc) we might as well get on with tackling some of the smaller ones.

Did you not think that one of the world experts in the 'smoking & cancer' issue saying that “the effects of other people smoking in my presence are so small it doesn’t worry me” - Is at least a little food for thought...

Well ok that's one individual doctor and of course many doctors are themselves smokers, but I have quoted the BMA above (of which I think 80% of British doctors are members) which says that passive smoking is a serious problem. So maybe it doesn't worry your expert but it does worry me = I don't want to breathe other people's smoke.

it’s not the smoking ban that worries me. Leaving the ‘smoking’ aside; I look at my two small grandsons and can’t help but envisage their ‘grown up world’ where they are bound, managed, gagged and monitored with invisible ‘soul and personality destroying’ chains and shackles. But then I suppose that's a whole different thread eh?

OK but I think we have to distinguish between serious issues that warrant government action and trivial issues that don't. The Big Brother thing is a red herring here for me.

Dr L

RE: Should smoking be banned in public?

ORIGINAL: Gamb1t247

I want to give up myself but the thing is i have no insentive to give up. smoking is about the only pleasure i get out of life and it is slowly killing me.

I suggest you join a good hatha yoga class - this may give you more more appreciation for your breath, your body and your health generally, and so smoking will no longer appear attractive.

If the government is wanting to push to us how bad smoking is and they are constantly pushing people to stop then why dont they just bann it tottally? beceause of the millions of pounds they make every year from those individuals that cant stop.

Taxes may be a factor but more important is that prohibition is unenforceable and doesn't work. It would just create a massive black market as for cocaine etc.

Dr L

RE: Should smoking be banned in public?

Hi all,

two comments: the first about 'Dr L's' assertion that, like prohibition, the banning of smoking would be unworkable. I absolutely agree. No one in their right mind takes part in a practice that has been scientifically proven (using the scientific method test, I am so fond of) unless that mind has been warped by that practice,, ie smoking is a drug, aka 'Dr L's' 'cocaine'. Smokers WILL have their fix, if neccessarily, outside the law.

The present sad druggees are for the most, lost, but surely something more should be done to stop the youngster about to take his or her first 'drag', just because of peer pressure or fashion. That's where the genius of the ad world should be concentrating,, stop them before they start.

The second comment,, of topic a bit ,,, sorry,,, is the attack on 'secondary smoking' by the media and medics and Roger's correct reference to the harmful effects of alcohol. Can I add to Roger's comments by bringing up the killing and maiming of others by drunken drivers. This surely is as much a 'secondary killing' by alcohol as is scheloris can be the primary....

I do admit to being a drinker of good wine in good company and the value of alcohol as a socialising medium,, there is absolutely no redeming factor for smoking.

Leo

RE: Should smoking be banned in public?

Clearly there is a potential health hazard from smoking as indeed there is from many other habits, which our fellow humans have taken on. However this topic, which Sarah has put forward concerns smoking and the view that it might be of benefit to people if it were to be banned in the UK.
We are not discussing aspartame, saturated fat, traffic fumes, alcohol, etcetera. So let's keep to the subject matter that Sarah wishes us to discuss.

I am not too keen on being in the prescence of tobacco smokers. Not so much because I think of heart and lung problems but I do tend to think of my clothing becoming smelly and breath odour. OK I know that I have my priorities the wrong way around.
Fortunately most of my friends refrain from smoking but there are still many occasions both work and social, when I need to enter smoke-ridden places.
Certainly more smoke free public areas are needed but I think that an outright ban could be unnecessary.
As someone who enjoys visiting Ireland, I would be interested to hear from people who have up to date knowledge of what the current situation is. How, for example, have smokers got along with the new scenario.

Unfortunately we live in an ever increasing nanny state and eventually none of us may be permitted to do anything that might be considered injurious to either ourselves or to others.
I believe that we should be encouraged to continue down the educational route rather than introducing too many outright bans.

RE: Should smoking be banned in public?

Can I recommend particularly to smokers the book

'The runaway Jury' by John Grisham.

This hilights the cynical almost subliminal advertising of cigarettes to young people. Once they're hooked they have them. Also the formulation of cigs (has some awful additives) to increase addiction.

More and more smokers are considerate these days and I would be in favour of small areas where they can smoke, but unfortunately the smoke just travels and permeates everything.

The lovely little cafe I often go to has 1 table for smokers!! Whats the point. It only takes one puffer to fill the air with second hand smoke, I wish it could be banned from all restaurants if not pubs. A similar thing happened wile enjoying fish and chips in Whitby. Only 2 people among about 40 smoked but we all had to 'share it'.

PS I have been a smoker and found it very hard to give up, especially socially, but managed it in the end.

Jan

RE: Should smoking be banned in public?

Hi Jan,

About cigarette advertising to young people - I think that the success of this would depend on whether the young person has any notion that he/she would want to smoke anyway. More likely is the so-called 'peer pressure' and copying of smoking adults, that seem to encourage youngsters into smoking. There was plenty of advertising of tobacco when I was young (no strict regulations in force then!) but I did not want to smoke. Not because it was smelly, but because of the filth it leaves behind - fag ash, fag ends and dirty ashtrays. I have a great aversion to fag ends and fag ash, and I will go out of my way to avoid stepping on discarded ends lying on the pavement. That's the part of smoking that I object to - not the smoke or the smokers themselves.

Hi RG,

You make some good points here. The 'nanny state' is slowly creeping up on us. That's what we really have to watch out for. However, all the education in the world isn't going to stop someone from beginning to smoke if he/she truly wants to.

Love,
Patsy.
xxxxxx

RE: Should smoking be banned in public?

People who want to ban stuff ought to be BANNED...!!!...., pretty soon they will make it an offense to fart in public or to wear a loud shirt in a built up area in the hours of darkness .....or something....

...hold on...just checking to see if i have the right to breathe [>:]

RE: Should smoking be banned in public?

Hi all,

I found this little excerpt from a Radio phone in from the Rep of Ireland regarding developments and the publics thoughts now that it has been a few weeks since the smoking ban smoking in Ireland discussion

Rgds,
Roger

RE: Should smoking be banned in public?

Front page of today's 'The Guardian' -

Labour to ban public smoking

Patrick Wintour, chief political correspondent
Wednesday June 30, 2004
The Guardian

A ban on smoking in public places along the lines of restrictions in Ireland will form part of Labour's third term manifesto, according to draft policy documents to be presented to Labour's policy forum...

In Ireland it has been illegal to smoke in bars and most other public places since March this year.

The third term Labour agenda, passed to the Guardian and due to be published later in the summer, focuses on restrictions on binge drinking, irresponsible pubs and unscrupulous food marketing.

The document, the result of consultation involving ministers and party members, will set the themes for Labour's general election manifesto.

… "The need to protect young people and children is seen as of paramount importance," the papers conclude.

The wording suggests the government has only to decide whether restrictions on public smoking should be imposed by local councils or national government. Sustained and above-inflation tax increases levied on tobacco products were viewed as the minimum the government should be doing to restrict consumption.

Yesterday, calls for a ban on smoking in bars and restaurants gained weight with the publication of evidence suggesting that the risks of heart disease faced by passive smokers are double what was previously estimated.

Previous research had found that passive smoking is linked with a 25-30% increased risk of coronary heart disease. But the latest study, published on bmj.com, found that non-smokers faced a 50-60% increased risk. The study focused on 4,792 men from 18 British towns who were monitored for 20 years…

On obesity, with a white paper due in the summer, the papers say it is essential to have "further consumer information through both marketing and labelling if we are to raise the quality of the nation's diet"…

RE: Should smoking be banned in public?

My family's experience is rather like Gilly's

I also had a relative die of lung cancer who never smoked in her life, whose husband did not smoke and did not work in a smoking environment. I have had a friend die of colon cancer who never ate meat, was a vegetarian all her life and a health fanatic. My grandfather smoked all his life and died at 92 and not of cancer of the lungs.

- though it was my gran who did 3 packets a day for 60 years and only made it to a sprightly 88. She was also incredibly considerate about where she smoked and who was around her.

We agree that smoking is bad for us, active or secondary. Enough newspaper articles on that, already!

I do believe that banning would have a lot of negative consequences, would glamourise smoking for kids, wouldn't really cure anyone of an addiction.

We have adequate technology nowadays to ensure that smoking areas don't 'bleed' into other areas and I believe it's important to keep a space for free choice in a humane society. (As far as bar staff are concerned, I'd say the bar doesn't need to be in the smoking area.)
There's a right time in a smoker's life to face the challenge of breaking an addiction, and it isn't up to society to impose that time. Let's have pleasant and well-provided areas for both non-smokers and smokers, so that each is free to breathe what they need.
Deprivation is a wretched, miserable, stressful experience for someone who is addicted to cigarettes. I don't want to punish smokers for their addiction: some of the loveliest, most tolerant and good people in my life have been smokers.

Live and let live, say I!

Love and light
BV
[sm=cat.gif]
PS Of course we need to protect children - no-one advocates smoking in nurseries: but doesn't most exposure of kids to tobacco smoke happen in the home? And how do you tackle that?

RE: Should smoking be banned in public?

ORIGINAL: bigvoice

We agree that smoking is bad for us, active or secondary. Enough newspaper articles on that, already!

I don't think that we do agree about how bad it is - lots of people on HP say things like well it's not that bad, there are worse problems (true, but irrelevant), I don't accept the medical evidence, I don't trust doctors etc

There's a right time in a smoker's life to face the challenge of breaking an addiction, and it isn't up to society to impose that time.

OK but while the smoker is mulling it over I don't want to breathe his smoke.

Deprivation is a wretched, miserable, stressful experience for someone who is addicted to cigarettes.

That's not my problem.

PS Of course we need to protect children - no-one advocates smoking in nurseries: but doesn't most exposure of kids to tobacco smoke happen in the home? And how do you tackle that?

Good question - it is really sickening to see adults who are so selfish as to smoke over children. As I understand it passive smoking is even more harmful to children than it is to adults - this is common sense really - the child's body is less developed and so less strong. I think again that education / public awareness is a major factor here - there is still the attitude of 'oh it's not that bad'. And of course it takes years to change attitudes like this but we are at last moving in the right direction.

Dr L

RE: Should smoking be banned in public?

I am a life long non smoker and I prefer a smoke free environment.

However, I wonder who the Government would cope if all the smokers gave up thus ending the huge subsidy they provide to the Tax system and the NHS?

Pete

RE: Should smoking be banned in public?

My thoughts are that consumers will eventually make their own choice.

If there is a restaurant or bar that allows smoking and as a non smoker you go in there, then it is a choice you made. Its already fairly common for many public places to be completely non smoking or have only a small area.

If a bar bans smoking and finds that its business improves then more bars are likely to follow suit, the opposite case is also true of course. I dont see why *all* public places need the ban though. Let people choose where to go. I dont want the government or any agency telling me what to do more than they already strangle my choices.

Oh and FYI, I was a lifelong smoker until a little over three months ago when I finally managed to kick it, and not because of health risks or cost or anything like that, I was just sick of being controlled by a little white stick... Again a matter of choice.

I have friends who are both smokers and non smokers, I will spend time with them anywhere, mainly as its my belief that if your time is up there isnt a thing you can do about it, and in the mean time, live life to the full! - Please note that this is purely my own belief and I in no way push it on others.

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