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Balance

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(@cactuschris)
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Living in the Now has a beguiling pull to it, however it is not all it seems from my experiences. I have been look at why this is.
Certainly there are a number of advocates of this way of being, yet when I look I see not the open, horizonless spaces, instead I see the benefits enclosed within barriers and boundaries. The devotees of the Now do not see these, they suppose that the space is limitless, encompassing all, but they allow themselves to be blinded by their zest into seeing only what they wish was the case.

The trouble is that living in the now forces an exclusion of aspects that do not fit well. We cannot live in the past, but that does not mean that that we cannot get benefit from ‘reliving the past’ – yet this is excluded. We cannot predict the future but that does not mean that we should not prepare for it – yet this is seen as worthless and is excluded. We are complex beings and should not deny ourselves the richness of our past or of looking forwards to the future.
Take for instance a formula 1 driver, sitting in his car waiting for the race to start – is he living in the now? Not at all, he will be once he sets off, but for now he is reliving the past (laps) and seeing where he will be in the laps to come. He works with the past and the future in order to become better at his job, better able to operate in the now when he needs to.
Actually even those who claim to live in the now understand the need to plan – they compose shopping lists, fill the car with fuel before it runs out and clean their teeth to stop decay later in life. They strive to somehow remain in the now while having to deal with things that drag them out of it.

Now living in the now is seen by many as enlightenment, as some kind of step forwards – yet this is not necessarily the case. Along with living in the now often comes a sense of joy or perhaps bliss, this is highly attractive and many would say that if one can have this then why have anything else, why have the issues and problems that come with not living in the now? Seems a valid argument. That is until one changes the words to reflect perhaps what a heroin addict would say, they would use the same argument if they were offered unlimited access to heroin. It is much what a child would say if offered only sweets and crisps rather than a balanced diet that included fruit and vegetables.

So what possibly could be the reason to not live only in the Now, what possibly could be the benefits?

Firstly let’s look at the example of the heroin addict – for many of the same circumstances apply. Given the access to unlimited supplies of heroin they will spend all their time high, this creates an isolationist state, a state where only the addict matters, and others are of no consequence. The same can be said about living in the now, the focus moves only to activities that are self-serving, while one marvels at the wonder of the Now others are excluded, the sense of total connection to the universe and all in it is internalised, it is real only to the person experiencing the Now, just as the marvellous hallucinations and sense of peace are real only to the heroin addict – outsiders cannot see them and are not part of them.
The heroin addict has no worry about the future, they will allow themselves to grow thin from not eating, from not planning their future health, they will not worry about servicing many of the things that need servicing just to live in this world. Those living in the now advocate exactly this – pensions planning for an old age retirement are of no consequence because the they may never grow old, insurance is only purchased when required by law, because the need to claim may never arise – deal only with what is here now, do not worry about the future for it cannot be predicted.
The heroin addict (actually I have never taken heroin or any other addictive stuff so I write about my perceptions of it all), has no need of the past – it is gone and issues from it can be discarded, only the next fix matters they dip out of the now only to get it all ready for injecting the next shot, and the same is true of those in the now, the past is gone and has no relevance other than memories in the Now. In both cases behaviour is not governed by care for others, it does not allow for compassion or love, only the self is important, for that is the nature of the trip or the now – it is self-serving.

Now some might say that animals live in the now, they understand about dealing with what is here now and needs dealing with. Yes they do ‘squirrel’ away food for winter, but that is not really planning for the future – well…perhaps – it does seem to be mostly instinctive. The problem with this kind of argument is that it assumes that we are just animals.
Something happened to humans a long time ago that altered this, we became able to review the past, relive it and retell it, we became able to predict with varying degrees of accuracy the future, and to respond to the statistical probabilities and risks involved of that future. This is apparent from as far back as when cave paintings were first produced. The paintings were used as stories to relive the past and record it so that others might also relive it in the future. The paintings were done as a part of planning for the future, they were used as a way of preparing for the next hunt, they were even used as a way of insuring against spiritual attack by being used as wards. These people were different to the animals, they had achieved the means to see images and understand them, and they had learned to plan for things that were not threatening in the now. They collected healing herbs for ailments that would arrive when winter came, this was a means of insurance. They were often faced with problems of the now and had to deal with them, but they also gained the ability to relive and recount the past, they learned to foretell, however accurately, the future and to prepare for it. They became spiritually aware, as well as aware of the now and the past and future. They became humans rather than animals – they developed a thinking mind and they were able to synergise new concepts by reliving the past, existing in the now and visualising the future. Our cave painings of today are books and films, photos and heirlooms, and yes, even religious relics and amulets.
This is not something that we just discard because we suddenly have access to the ‘unlimited supply of heroin’. It is a part of us that is important, it has survival relevance, and it has developmental relevance. When we understand this we stop behaving like a child and become mature. By living only in the now one creates barriers that exclude these abilities that we have that differentiate us from the other animals, the barriers work selfishly to exclude that part of us that many describe as the mind, and yet this is a valid element of who we are, by denying it a share of our being we effectively kill who we are and reduce our capacity to become who we can be. That chattering mind that is so often distracting and that many seek to still has a legitimate place in our existence so long as it remains in balance with all the other aspects of our intricate being and if we just exclude it by devising barriers than we are reducing the possibilities of developing fully.

So don’t get me wrong I think there is a need for both, actually for all aspects of ourselves – the barriers that the now creates are selfish and protect only a part of us, excluding all the other parts of who we are in favour only of the now, this no better than denying the now completely. We are a complex balance of complex parts, and it is only when we are balanced that we have the opportunity to develop fully into who we can be.
love
chris

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Posts: 4956
(@paul-crick_1611052763)
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Hi Chris

It appears that your understanding of a heroin addict is about on par with your understanding of the now, if you understood how an addict lives their life, then you would not be suggesting that they are dipping in and out of the now, an addicts life revolves around their addiction.

The now is not about love and compassion for self or others, it is about being centred and balanced within self, without internal conflicts that are attached to past issues or worries about what the future might hold, so that life is fully experienced in the now as it unfolds around us because of our inner harmony.

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Energylz
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I won't answer all the post as it simply shows a continuing lack of understanding of the Now, especially if you are going to try and make it comparible to a heroin addict. Clearly you've not taken aboard anything that was discussed in the root cause of suffering thread and you seem firmly fixed on what you have always believed. You still see the now with barriers, you still see the now as exluding, you still see the now as self-serving, even though you have been told that it is none of these things. We tell you that 1+1=2 and you stick by your insistance that it =3. That's your choice.

I'll just pick out one part of what you say...

Take for instance a formula 1 driver, sitting in his car waiting for the race to start – is he living in the now? Not at all, he will be once he sets off, but for now he is reliving the past (laps) and seeing where he will be in the laps to come. He works with the past and the future in order to become better at his job, better able to operate in the now when he needs to.

This is a good example of lacking understanding of the Now.
If a formula 1 driver is sitting in his car waiting to start the race then his focus should be on what is needed right there and then. If he's sitting waiting for the starting lights to change but his mind is focused on reliving the past laps and seeing where he will be in the laps to come, then he will not be aware of the lights changing and will fail to get a quick start. If he tries to take the first bend the same as he took it in the past, because his mind is focused on how he took it in the practice lap, then he can easily fail to notice the other car/driver coming up the inside and may crash as a result.
Living in the now isn't excluding the skills learnt from past experiences, but about not letting the mind wander onto things that do not meet the needs of the present moment.

That may sound like it exludes the future, but it doesn't. If there is a need in this present moment to make provisions for something that is expected in the future, then that need to should be acted on, but spending time worrying about what may happen in the future and letting it effect you adversely in the present moment, serves no purpose.

'nuff said, otherwise we're just going to be repeating ourselves again.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

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derekgruender
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(@derekgruender)
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So, the Now is about barriers and boundaries, is it?

Well, if I choose to live in my past, I find myself bound by what I cannot change - after all, it is in the past. Reliving some previous time when I made choices that cause me pain, now, binds me up so tight, it hurts.

If I choose to live in the future, so to speak, I find barriers at every turn - how will I afford to pay for the things my children need, the bills, my tax, etc., while business is a bit slack? Is some of the discomfort and physical pain I feel something terrible that will end in some horrible illness and prevent me from working - or kill me? Where am I going to live, having been given notice on my tenancy and no suitable property available? Barriers, barrier, barriers.

But here, in the Now, there is nothing more at this moment that I can do about any of the above, and, actually, strange as it may seem, life is very good! I am, right Now, magnificence in human form; I am, right Now, a miracle; I am, right Now, full of the most unimaginable potential. Right Now, there are no barriers or boundaries, there is, as Paul says, only harmony and balance.

I know where I choose to live!

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NICE_1
Posts: 1165
(@nice_1)
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Hi All / Chris . 🙂

In respect to balance chris I would say that for an Individual to achieve balance one must allow past, present and future thoughts and expressions to manifest . To allow them to come and go without becoming to attached to them .

We cannot help past memories surfacing or whatever but we can help It If we allow them to take a foot hold within our present moment .

Just like an Individual living In the now does not place his hands In to an open fire because he/she knows through past experience / memories that fire will cause pain to them .

In other words living In the now Is not hindered by having past memories of fire .

Allowing a fear based experience of fire In the past that Influences how they live their lives In the present moment will be a hindrance .

x dazzle x

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Posts: 959
Topic starter
(@cactuschris)
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Joined: 14 years ago

Hi all,
Much the replies I expected - ok –
first
Hi Paul - I did not say the heroin addict lives in the now – I used it as a comparison – an analogy. I do understand what you sat that the now is not about love and compassion for others though, this is what I meant about it being self serving.

Hi Giles – I have listened to what you said and reviewed it and still find what I saw and your views incomplete. I think that because you are blind to the barriers you cannot see them – this leads you to the conviction that they do not exist. Yes – I see the being in the now as self serving – this annoys you but does not make it wrong.
If you watch formula 1 you will know that the drivers spend up to 10 minutes in the car waiting for the first warm up lap – watch them – they are doing what I described, eyes closed, reliving past laps and predicting future laps – I agree that when the red lights are on they are focussed only on the moment – waiting for them to change.
It was you that said you only have insurance because you are forced to.

Hi Derek,
No – the now is not about boundaries, but that does not mean that it has none.
You questions about the future show that you do worry about these things – simply ignoring them will not solve them – proacative action will though.
Yes – you are a miracle – and full of potential, but if you only live in the now then you are accessing only part of what you are and so your overall potential is never going to be fully realised – just as it would not be for someone who never lived in the now.

I understand what you mean when you say that you know where you choose to live – that was the whole point of much of my post – sweets and crisps.


You see much of this revolves around wishes and hopes that things will be as one would like them rather than facing how they really are. Take for instance the persistent use on being non-judgemental. Well there is a place for this – accepting that some people are as they are, accepting that we are as we are is part of being compassionate and loving – it is not a license to do whatever we want and assume that there is no subsequent consequence, and it is not a license to behave badly.
Being non-judgemental does not mean that there is no right or wrong, no good or bad. If we hurt people or behave badly than we will eventually have to face that, if we help people and behave in a loving and compassionate manner towards them then we will achieve an improvement in our lives, if we fabricate lies and con vulnerable people that is wrong and no matter what shouts of ‘non-judgemental’ will cleanse the injury we inflict. If we are lovingly honest, most especially with ourselves, then we respond with honour. If we are disrespectful towards others then this reflects upon ourselves and we will have to face the consequences of that. WE build a balance of the consequences of our lives and one day we will eventually have to review the balance, why should this be such a surprise?

love
chris

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(@paul-crick_1611052763)
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Hi Chris

Hi Paul - I did not say the heroin addict lives in the now – I used it as a comparison – an analogy. I do understand what you sat that the now is not about love and compassion for others though, this is what I meant about it being self serving.

What you said was that heroin addicts 'dip out of the now' to obtain their fixes, to my understanding, in order to 'dip out of the now', they must firstly be living in it!

As for the second part of your response, you have once again chosen to deliberately misquote what is said to attempt to make it justify your posts, please take note, the part of the post that you have misquoted actually said:

The now is not about love and compassion for self or others

My response had absolutely nothing to do with being selfish towards others, the point was that the now is impartial and neutral, it has nothing to do with what we choose to feel towards self or others, the now is simply the Now.

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Energylz
Posts: 16602
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Hi Giles – I have listened to what you said and reviewed it and still find what I saw and your views incomplete. I think that because you are blind to the barriers you cannot see them – this leads you to the conviction that they do not exist.

So, show me these barriers. I want to see them. In all the discussions we've had you've not been able to show them to me, yet you insist they exist.

Yes – I see the being in the now as self serving – this annoys you but does not make it wrong.

I doesn't annoy me, so I'm not sure why you feel that. But you insist that people living in the now are self serving and excluding others. I've met many people who choose to live in the Now and I have never experienced any who exclude others or are selfish in any way. You seem to have gained this idea from misinterpreting what others have written, not through your own experience perhaps?

If you watch formula 1 you will know that the drivers spend up to 10 minutes in the car waiting for the first warm up lap – watch them – they are doing what I described, eyes closed, reliving past laps and predicting future laps – I agree that when the red lights are on they are focussed only on the moment – waiting for them to change.

So you are able to read the minds of others? How do you know what they are focused on. Perhaps they are just stilling their minds or meditating, or focusing on someone they love to help remove their fears and nerves... it could be anything. I certainly wouldn't claim to know what they are doing, and it is surely a huge generalization to make that claim about all drivers.

It was you that said you only have insurance because you are forced to.

In your interpretation of what I said, maybe, but that's not the case.
There are insurances that are needed by law or some other body of society, and there are insurances that people take out of fear of what may happen in the future. If I look at what insurance I have... I have car insurance... required by law... I have house insurance ... required by my mortgage company... I have life insurance (of a sort) ... which just comes with part of the pension that is part of my employment that all employees have ... I have payment protection insurance ... also required by my mortgage company. None of these were taken out by me due to any fear of mine of the future, these have just been imposed by others fears of what may happen if something were to happen to me. I don't take out insurance or extended breakdown cover on items I buy such as fridges etc. but the company selling these things do their best to use fear tactics to get me to. e.g. "your warranty is about to run out, do you realise how much it can cost to replace such and such, you could be left with expensive repair bills on your hands, we can offer you a great deal on extending your warranty for less that 50p per day, that's about the price of a pint of milk" (let me think about that... ooo, that's about £150 a year, almost the cost of a new appliance anyway and if it lasts another 5 years, that's £750 paid, when I could have put the money aside for a new one and had money left over). So, Chris, what insurance am I supposed to take out according to you that I'm failing to do because I aim to live in the Now?

Hi Derek,
No – the now is not about boundaries, but that does not mean that it has none.
You questions about the future show that you do worry about these things – simply ignoring them will not solve them – proacative action will though.

Derek wasn't asking questions, he was demonstrating the sort of things people worry about if they are not living in the Now. The point is that many people spend so much time worrying about these sorts of things that that is all they do and even if they resolve one of the issues, they let their mind create more of them. At the same time, they are missing the needs of the moment, simply because of fear of what may be (but which is not likely to be as expected).

Yes – you are a miracle – and full of potential, but if you only live in the now then you are accessing only part of what you are and so your overall potential is never going to be fully realised – just as it would not be for someone who never lived in the now.

I understand what you mean when you say that you know where you choose to live – that was the whole point of much of my post – sweets and crisps.

And you missed Derek's point.

I think you fail to see that everyone who has chosen to live in the Now (or do their best to) has spent a lot of their lives not living in the Now. They know what it is like to suffer, to worry, to have fears etc. and they have found that living in the Now allows us to recognise those things for what they are... something that is not real... and thus let them go. It's not about ignoring them or supressing them, it's about an awareness. Living in the Now is an additional realization on top of how we used to live. We have the thoughts and memories past arising still, we have ideas and thoughts of the future, but we also have the awareness of what is real and what is not. You seem to have this idea that living in the Now somehow cuts out the past and future completely and this is why you believe it stops potential growth of a person. In fact it's the opposite, it allows the greatest growth possible by recognising what is true and what is not.

You see much of this revolves around wishes and hopes that things will be as one would like them rather than facing how they really are.

Wishes and hopes are not something in the Now, they are creations of ideas of the future based on the past. Facing how they really are is being aware of what is right in front of you Now... that is how things ARE.

Take for instance the persistent use on being non-judgemental. Well there is a place for this – accepting that some people are as they are, accepting that we are as we are is part of being compassionate and loving – it is not a license to do whatever we want and assume that there is no subsequent consequence, and it is not a license to behave badly.

Being non-judgemental does not mean that there is no right or wrong, no good or bad. If we hurt people or behave badly than we will eventually have to face that, if we help people and behave in a loving and compassionate manner towards them then we will achieve an improvement in our lives, if we fabricate lies and con vulnerable people that is wrong and no matter what shouts of ‘non-judgemental’ will cleanse the injury we inflict. If we are lovingly honest, most especially with ourselves, then we respond with honour. If we are disrespectful towards others then this reflects upon ourselves and we will have to face the consequences of that. WE build a balance of the consequences of our lives and one day we will eventually have to review the balance, why should this be such a surprise?

So why do you constantly judge those who choose to live in the Now with you claims of them being self serving, non-compassionate etc? :confused:

All Love and Reiki Hugs

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derekgruender
Posts: 834
(@derekgruender)
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Hi Derek,

No – the now is not about boundaries, but that does not mean that it has none.

Boundaries come before or after something - the now has no before or after so how could it have boundaries?

questions about the future show that you do worry about these things – simply ignoring them will not solve them – proacative action will though.

How can you presume that I worry or that I am simply ignoring questions about the future? Your skill at misinterpretation is certainly boundless!

– you are a miracle – and full of potential,

but not magnificence in human form? :016:

but if you only live in the now then you are accessing only part of what you are and so your overall potential is never going to be fully realised – just as it would not be for someone who never lived in the now.

Potential is never fully realised - that's why it's called, 'potential.';) And rather than just 'accessing' a part of what I am, the part that is healthy, balanced, happy, content and full of life, you think I should also access the part from the past and the part from the future which will cause me pain? Is that what you mean by proactive action? I've made a note in my diary for next time I get dangerously happy, to book a session with you!

I understand what you mean when you say that you know where you choose to live – that was the whole point of much of my post – sweets and crisps.

No, you don't! 'Cactuschris understands.' Perhaps the best example of an oxymoron I've ever heard!

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Sue1
Posts: 111
 Sue1
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but not magnificence in human form? :016:

Derek you ARE magnificence in human form!!!!!:dance:

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derekgruender
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Derek you ARE magnificence in human form!!!!!:dance:

:1kis:

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beckyboop922
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this is what I meant about it being self serving. Will you explain what you mean by this Chris please because I don't understand?
I live in the now because I feel to do anything else has proved pointless to say the least but my life evolves around helping others both in work (I counsel heroin and crack addicts in a homeless hostel;)) and in my private life I love to help my family and friends on a daily basis in any way I can, if I can, I occasionally say no but this IMO is healthy no point in running myself into the ground I won't be any good to anybody then, self included.

I am also interested to learn your thoughts about the issue of being self serving you speak about this issue like it's something, bad, wrong, to be avoided, if one is self serving is does not have to mean we are totally selfish, uncaring, lacking in compassion & humility but you make it sound as though it does.

I can't figure out what you issue with the now is, you appear to have a need to over-complicate something which to me at least is quite simple, that's one of the things I love about it, I don't mean that unkindly btw Chris I just don't understand your need to complicate it and pick holes in it for lots of reasons but the main reason is because your theory can be applied to anything for example one person may get something out of a certain religion but it won't suit everybody that won't then mean it has to be self serving or no good but it might rock the boat of the person practicing it.

You are inventing issues that are not there, nobody is forcing those who live in the now to do so, it obviously bugs you a lot but finding fault is not the answer, there are no faults for those choosing to stay in the now and if they are happy what's the problem?

Love

Rebecca

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Posts: 959
Topic starter
(@cactuschris)
Prominent Member
Joined: 14 years ago

Hi Paul,
Yes – I see that addicts do dip into the now when all they can focus on is the next fix, needed immediately, this fits well with descriptions of only one point of focus. I do not think that they live in the now – anything but.

Regarding ther point about living in the now being only about the person living it it this is self evident. The perception that they have of the now is totally focussed around themselves and totally centred about themselves. This is evident from Giles’ comments about the sun. you see Giles said that it was all about what is now, but when I pointed out that what we see when we look at the sun is actually only what amount to seeing the past he commented that this did not matter, it was only what he saw that mattered. Now if this is the case, that the definition can just be altered of what is in the now, then living in the now is just about the perceptions of the person ‘living in the now’, the light in the eyes as Giles puts it. That makes the process totally centric, with the observer effectively creating their own world that cannot be shared, only the similarities notes from what others describe about their own view of their own centric now. This is why it ultimately will only serve the person at the centre of the now.

Hi Giles,
I have tried again and again to describe the barriers, these are what I perceive but I also believe that you choose to be blind to them. In the example above about the sun I see that you choose to discard ‘corrupt memories’ as part of living in the now, but accept corrupt memories of the sun, this is a choice you make, it is done to support the Now that is your conceptual version of it, rules can be made and broken so long as the outcome supports the concept.
Now the Formula 1 drivers is interesting, I watched on the weekend – however the process that they are going through has been described by them, I have not tried to second guess them, only listened to what they have said – they are not stilling their minds, meditating or whatever else you might come up with to try to discard my description. Unless that is they are lying for some reason.
Insurance is an interesting aspect – all I did was quote you that you did not take out insurance other than that that was required – I think you reiterated that .
I agree fully that worry and fear are not good, both destructive in my view, so as I’ve said if you are worrying about something either do something about it to remove the worry or stop worrying until you can. Fear is also a problem, and facing the cause of the fear and dealing with it will solve that too if one chooses to. That is not about living in the now, it is just a way to deal with worry and fear – living in the now may be one way to deal with this but it is not the only way.
Wishes and hopes are all I see about descriptions of the now, they support and prop up the concepts, just as deciding that the corrupted light from the sun is ok but corrupted memories are not.
I use all of the parts that are the sum of me, I have looked into the now and I have seen what I see, and I am ok to make evaluations (judgements) on it, I see what is does to people and I am ok to make comments (judgements) on it, we do this all the time, even you have judged that I am making judgments – this is part of who we are, why I asked would anyone deny part of who they are in order to try to achieve full potential – it is like driving a car only in first gear. I see that things can be right or wrong, good or bad, I understand that this is ‘in my view’, but that is the nature of gathering experience and is part of our spiritual journey – it is part of karma and balance.

Hi Derek,
Boundaries actually divide things, and keep them separate, so I think what I see is keeping the now separate from something, I am trying to understand what and will continue to do so, but the very nature of boundaries can be to make that difficult.
Ahh – one day we will all reach our full potential – that is the nature of the journey we are on – if you have given up on that then it will make the journey all the harder.
I have every intent at some time to achieve my full potential, maybe not this lifetime, maybe not the next, but I will get there.
Being abusive will not achieve potential though, it is just rude and vulgar and exhibits an unpleasant attitude .

Hi Rebecca,
I have quoted the dictionary version of self serving:
Serving one's own interests, especially without
concern for the needs or interests of others” from the Freedictionary. This does not mean it is selfish, though it can be, it means that it is centric around the person. One does not have to live in the now to be self- serving, but the description came from descriptions of living in the now on other threads.

It was Paul who introduced the self-serving aspect of all this.
But just from one who advocates the Now this is the selection of options on offer:
“We can choose to live life now and experience it as it is happening to the full, or we can choose to ignore what is happening right now and be consumed with our memories of the past and fill ourselves with past longings and what ifs, alternatively we can also choose to ignore what is happening right now and be consumed with worry and fear of the future.”
So the choice is to live in the now and everything is great or two their choices where all is not great – yet this is clearly not the case, many who do not live in the now do not live consumed with memories or live in fear and worry.

I have looks at the now as best as I can, I saw barriers that I am told are not there, yet this is what I saw. I see nothing wrong with living in the now, but I also see that by doing so one discards much of the other aspects that make us up, so I asked what is the reason that we would discard things that are part of us, what is it about the now that imposes upon us the need to deny access to parts of us that are not only natural but inborn?
Ha – now you tell me that I am inventing things that are not there, very judgemental, but can you prove they are not there, or is it simply that you do not see them or choose not to? I am enquiring about the now, some here can help, but if it simply means that they ‘tell me’ and I have to accept it then is it any surprise that I question further? I have been told that there are no barriers, I have been told that I am inventing things – what possible reason would I have to do this? – but being told what to think is not the answer either. If happiness depends on misinformation, which many regimes depend upon then it is false.
love
chris

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(@paul-crick_1611052763)
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Hi Chris

Hi Paul,
Yes – I see that addicts do dip into the now when all they can focus on is the next fix, needed immediately, this fits well with descriptions of only one point of focus. I do not think that they live in the now – anything but.

That is back to front Chris, to experience the now we need inner calm and tranquillity, something I am sure you will agree that a heroine addict is sadly lacking all of the time. 🙂

Regarding ther point about living in the now being only about the person living it it this is self evident. The perception that they have of the now is totally focussed around themselves and totally centred about themselves.

Sorry, but once again that concept is entirely flawed, you have not taken into account that more than one person can and share the now within their existences, I do this all of the time, both with my partner and other people. 🙂

This is evident from Giles’ comments about the sun. you see Giles said that it was all about what is now, but when I pointed out that what we see when we look at the sun is actually only what amount to seeing the past he commented that this did not matter, it was only what he saw that mattered.

Sorry to point out the obvious flaws in your thoughts, but you are saying that because it takes a while for the sun's light to reach this planet, that we are focusing upon the past, but that is not true, please consider that we only perceive the light as it reaches our eyes right now, that makes the light that we see current.

We perceive the stars at night, now irrespective of how many thousand or millions of our years that light has taken to arrive here, we are still seeing the light as it is appearing right now as we look at it, it is all happening on this planet in the now.

Now if this is the case, that the definition can just be altered of what is in the now, then living in the now is just about the perceptions of the person ‘living in the now’, the light in the eyes as Giles puts it. That makes the process totally centric, with the observer effectively creating their own world that cannot be shared, only the similarities notes from what others describe about their own view of their own centric now. This is why it ultimately will only serve the person at the centre of the now.

No our perceptions create our realities, they do not change the now, 10 people can come together who have created 10 different realities, but if a balloon explodes in their presence, then they all will experience the balloon exploding in the now, the now is constant, but the way that we choose to interpret and internalise the memorise of what happens in the now is individual to each person.

If there was no one in the world to observe what is unfolding within the now, it would still continue to unfold within the now, the now is not dependant upon us, we are dependant upon it.

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Energylz
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Hi Paul,
Yes – I see that addicts do dip into the now when all they can focus on is the next fix, needed immediately, this fits well with descriptions of only one point of focus. I do not think that they live in the now – anything but.

Regarding ther point about living in the now being only about the person living it it this is self evident. The perception that they have of the now is totally focussed around themselves and totally centred about themselves. This is evident from Giles’ comments about the sun. you see Giles said that it was all about what is now, but when I pointed out that what we see when we look at the sun is actually only what amount to seeing the past he commented that this did not matter, it was only what he saw that mattered. Now if this is the case, that the definition can just be altered of what is in the now, then living in the now is just about the perceptions of the person ‘living in the now’, the light in the eyes as Giles puts it. That makes the process totally centric, with the observer effectively creating their own world that cannot be shared, only the similarities notes from what others describe about their own view of their own centric now. This is why it ultimately will only serve the person at the centre of the now.

And this shows that you, yet again, completely misinterpreted what was said for your own purposes. In that other thread, that is the part where I said you could get pedantic about it, and you actually chose to do that. You yourself can only see the sunlight that reaches your eyes in the present moment, that's a scientific fact (and I know you like thinks that are scientifically proven), so by your own pedanticism you too can only live by your own perceptions and you too cannot share your world and are living in a totally self serving manner. Thus by your own definition, all those critisisms you are applying to those who aim to live in the Now, you can apply to yourself.

Hi Giles,
I have tried again and again to describe the barriers, these are what I perceive but I also believe that you choose to be blind to them.

As I said, I (and I'm sure everyone else) has spent a good majority of our lives living in the past and future in our minds. We know what is experienced by not living in the Now and we know what is experienced by living in the Now. We know, from those experiences that if we choose to live in the Now, it actually removes all barriers and opens up the whole Universe to us, whereas living in the past and future creates barriers. If we've seen barriers and removed them to allow us to see the Now, what are the barriers we are being blind to? I suspect it is perhaps yourself that can't see past the barriers as the descriptions you give seem to show that to be the case.

In the example above about the sun I see that you choose to discard ‘corrupt memories’ as part of living in the now, but accept corrupt memories of the sun, this is a choice you make, it is done to support the Now that is your conceptual version of it, rules can be made and broken so long as the outcome supports the concept.

You seem to be making these rules up youself again.
The memories are not 'discarded' as you suggest and as we've said many time before, though you seem to ignore us. Living in the now does not exclude or discard what has happened in the past experiences, which seem to be the barriers you believe we have. The past memories and experiences are there, but actually re-living those experiences in the mind serves no purpose, yet the skills and lessons learnt at the time they happened does serve us in the present moment as the need arises for those skills and learnings. It is yourself who is constantly insisting that living in the now excludes things and has discarded past memories, but that is down to your own misconceptions, no matter how many times we've told you otherwise. You are free to believe what you want, but by claiming that your beliefs of the Now is actually the reality of the Now, simply shows that you are not understanding it.

Now the Formula 1 drivers is interesting, I watched on the weekend – however the process that they are going through has been described by them, I have not tried to second guess them, only listened to what they have said – they are not stilling their minds, meditating or whatever else you might come up with to try to discard my description. Unless that is they are lying for some reason.

I'm not trying to discard your description, but the way you are describing it is as though you know yourself what is in the minds of these people. Even if they say they are focusing on certain things before a race, they, like many other people, often say what they believe people want to hear. It wouldn't sound professional or inspiring to the viewers if they were to say "well, I get quite nervous and just think about my wife and kids and how I love them" or "I often get distracted by the babes that are wandering around on the track before the race". The truth is that they may be focusing on past races, or practice laps, or meditating or doing any number of things, but you and I simply won't know that, so to try and use what you believe is in other people's minds as an example to prove your points rather than personal knowledge and experience serves no validity in the discussion.

Insurance is an interesting aspect – all I did was quote you that you did not take out insurance other than that that was required – I think you reiterated that.
I agree fully that worry and fear are not good, both destructive in my view, so as I’ve said if you are worrying about something either do something about it to remove the worry or stop worrying until you can. Fear is also a problem, and facing the cause of the fear and dealing with it will solve that too if one chooses to. That is not about living in the now, it is just a way to deal with worry and fear – living in the now may be one way to deal with this but it is not the only way.

So, I shouldn't take out insurance for my white goods, just in case one of them breaks. That's a relief, I was getting worried. 😉

Wishes and hopes are all I see about descriptions of the now,

Wishes and hopes are things of the future created from the past. They can't be descriptions of the now. This is your own mis-perception.

they support and prop up the concepts, just as deciding that the corrupted light from the sun is ok but corrupted memories are not.

The light hitting my eyes when I look up to the sun (speaking figuratively, don't start at the sun children it'll blind you!) is what I see as the sun, giving me an image of a round yellowy thing in the sky. That is what I know as the sun and the image everyone else sees is their knowledge of the sun. I could create an imaginary idea in my mind of what the sun is like at this moment in time, right there up in space, but I can't actually experience it, and there's no need to, because the sun as I see it right now is all that is needed. I can't prove that the sun exists right Now except as the light that is hitting my eyes (or the signals reaching my brain as you like to be pedantic) and neither can anyone else, but there isn't a need to. The light hitting my eyes IS the sun. That's not corrupted light, that is just the light of the sun.

I use all of the parts that are the sum of me,

Great, so you live in the Now. The Now always exists, and it's not something you can discard, so if you use all parts of you, then you must be in the Now.

I have looked into the now and I have seen what I see,

From where are you looking? Are you outside the Now? You time travelling again Chris? :dft002:

and I am ok to make evaluations (judgements) on it, I see what is does to people and I am ok to make comments (judgements) on it, we do this all the time, even you have judged that I am making judgments – this is part of who we are, why I asked would anyone deny part of who they are in order to try to achieve full potential – it is like driving a car only in first gear. I see that things can be right or wrong, good or bad, I understand that this is ‘in my view’, but that is the nature of gathering experience and is part of our spiritual journey – it is part of karma and balance.

Who is denying anything? Living in the Now does not deny the past memories or experiences. However living in those past memories or creating ideas of the future is denying what is going on right here and Now. That's why so many people get distracted and make mistakes, because they are not focused on what is needed right now.

Hi Derek,
Boundaries actually divide things, and keep them separate, so I think what I see is keeping the now separate from something, I am trying to understand what and will continue to do so, but the very nature of boundaries can be to make that difficult.

To have something on the other side to your boundary you are creating around the Now, would have to be something that is Not Now. Can anything actually exist that is not existing Now? I suspect, so long as you believe in a barrier around the Now, you are going to be searching for what is Not Now for ever.

Ahh – one day we will all reach our full potential – that is the nature of the journey we are on – if you have given up on that then it will make the journey all the harder.

Do you not choose to live to your full potential now? Why wait? Why believe it will happen 'one day'?

I have every intent at some time to achieve my full potential, maybe not this lifetime, maybe not the next, but I will get there.
Being abusive will not achieve potential though, it is just rude and vulgar and exhibits an unpleasant attitude .

So, referring to people choosing to live in the Now as being blind, equating them with heroine addicts, saying they do not have compassion or love for other people...etc. these are all pleasant attitudes? :confused:

Hi Rebecca,
I have quoted the dictionary version of self serving:
“Serving one's own interests, especially without
concern for the needs or interests of others” from the Freedictionary. This does not mean it is selfish, though it can be, it means that it is centric around the person. One does not have to live in the now to be self- serving, but the description came from descriptions of living in the now on other threads.

No, it came from your misinterpretation of the descriptions.
People said that living in the now is not about compassion or love etc. but that doesn't mean that such people do not exhibit compassion or love. Living in the Now naturally allows compassion and love to shine through rather than false attachments that create falso compassion and false love. Analogy... Living life is not about driving cars, but that does not mean that cars cannot be driven.

Your concept of living in the Now is to make things mutually exclusive from each other. This is your mind creating duality, hence why you are seeing barriers. This is not the truth of living in the Now. Simple as that. You see the barriers, yet we don't, and that's not because we are blind to the barriers, but because we do not create them as you do.

It was Paul who introduced the self-serving aspect of all this.
But just from one who advocates the Now this is the selection of options on offer:
“We can choose to live life now and experience it as it is happening to the full, or we can choose to ignore what is happening right now and be consumed with our memories of the past and fill ourselves with past longings and what ifs, alternatively we can also choose to ignore what is happening right now and be consumed with worry and fear of the future.”
So the choice is to live in the now and everything is great or two their choices where all is not great – yet this is clearly not the case, many who do not live in the now do not live consumed with memories or live in fear and worry.

Are you aware of what's in other people's minds again? Even the happiest people on the outside can be wrought with fear and worries on the inside.

I have looks at the now as best as I can, I saw barriers that I am told are not there, yet this is what I saw. I see nothing wrong with living in the now, but I also see that by doing so one discards much of the other aspects that make us up, so I asked what is the reason that we would discard things that are part of us, what is it about the now that imposes upon us the need to deny access to parts of us that are not only natural but inborn?

I think I've covered that above.

Ha – now you tell me that I am inventing things that are not there, very judgemental, but can you prove they are not there, or is it simply that you do not see them or choose not to? I am enquiring about the now, some here can help, but if it simply means that they ‘tell me’ and I have to accept it then is it any surprise that I question further? I have been told that there are no barriers, I have been told that I am inventing things – what possible reason would I have to do this? – but being told what to think is not the answer either.

Absolutely. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Anything about living in the Now should be put to personal test. That doesn't mean that we will always get it right and we may find barriers in the process. Having a good teacher or guide to discuss with can allow us to try again. Also, recognising that the mind plays games with us and creates things (not You Chris, but your mind, and as mentioned many times, it's not about blame) allows us to recognise what the mind is up to and stop it creating the barriers.

If happiness depends on misinformation, which many regimes depend upon then it is false.

I myself do not believe I have given any misinformation. I've spoken the truth as I know it.

If happiness depends on re-living the past or 'learning from suffering' I have yet to find such happiness. As mentioned at the start of this post, I have spent much time living in the past, and much time suffering, but no happiness was ever found there and no lessons learnt from the process of suffering, only from the actual experiences as they happened. Living in the Now allows freedom from those things that cause the suffering, and nobody has been able to show me any benefit to myself or anyone else from living otherwise.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

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Hi Giles

I have spent much time living in the past, and much time suffering, but no happiness was ever found there and no lessons learnt from the process of suffering, only from the actual experiences as they happened.

I think that you will find that you did learn from the process of suffering (most of us eventually do), which is why you chose to explore another path which freed you from the suffering that you were creating and experiencing within self. 😉

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Energylz
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Hi Giles

I think that you will find that you did learn from the process of suffering (most of us eventually do), which is why you chose to explore another path which freed you from the suffering that you were creating and experiencing within self. 😉

In a sense yes, I learnt that suffering isn't real so there's no point in suffering.
I do make a differentiation between experiencing things and suffering things. To me, suffering is re-living or carrying things from the past into the present moment, after the actual event has happened. This is why I say that there is nothing to be learnt from suffering, as it only detracts from what is really here in the Now. All I learnt was to recognise the suffering for what it is... a creation of the mind based on the past.

As for the experiences at the time they happened (in the present moment of that time past), that is where real learning happens.

😉

All Love and Reiki Hugs

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(@paul-crick_1611052763)
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Hi Giles

I think we are saying the same thing but perhaps not recognising the lesson which we have learnt through suffering.

To me, suffering is re-living or carrying things from the past into the present moment, after the actual event has happened.

Yes I agree, but until we learn what suffering teaches us, then we do not understand what we are dealing with, so we continue to suffer in confusion.

All I learnt was to recognise the suffering for what it is... a creation of the mind based on the past.

The lesson is to understand the nature of suffering, so that we are empowered and able to choose not to continue suffering needlessly. 🙂

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Energylz
Posts: 16602
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Yes Paul, I think we're saying the same thing.
We suffer, we identify with the suffering, we realize what the suffering is in truth, and from that lesson we let the suffering go. Untimately we can learn that there is no need to suffer in the first place... experience things, yes, but suffer no.

😉

All Love and Reiki Hugs

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(@cactuschris)
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Hi Paul,
I was not aware that calm and tranquillity is a prerequisite for living in the now though I do agree that the two usually seem to go together.
In terms of sharing the now, well people can share past experiences, but each of them will have seen a different aspect of the same event and each will have different perceptions of ‘what the facts were’. The fact that it seems to be dependent upon what one sees (like the light from the sun) makes it such that there are commonalities but each person experiences something different.

Regarding the sun, see what Giles says “The light hitting my eyes IS the sun. That's not corrupted light, that is just the light of the sun.” so now if that is true then the memories that are surfacing now are actually happening, they ARE reality, and this just does not work. The only explanation for this is that each person experiencing the now is an isolated experiential being, and so it once more appears to be centric. In the same way memories being relived are like the stars – the ones we are reliving are “all happening on this planet in the now.” If this is not true than the now as you see it is just based on what you choose to include and what you choose not to, it becomes a personal viewpoint and not an absolute.

I liked this:
If there was no one in the world to observe what is unfolding within the now, it would still continue to unfold within the now, the now is not dependant upon us, we are dependant upon it.” .

Hi Giles,
Regarding the comments from Derek I will just quote what you wrote to Malchy in your moderator mode in another thread, however it seems that you choose to apply these words depending on your own bias:
“Hi Malchy,
If you wish to judge and try and insult members of the forum by saying that we're squabbling, not open to new understanding or that we have big old egos, I'm more than happy to refer you to the forum guidelines (Discussion Forum Guidelines & Commercial Posting Rules) in respect of Language:
“Quote: Language: Any foul or hostile language used will not be tolerated. This includes any derogatory statements and profanity. Direct or indirect personal attacks are strictly not permitted. Insults and negative attitudes are not allowed. Saying you don't agree and why, can be done in a good humoured and polite way without causing offence.”
Perhaps you could explain the difference to me in this case…….. and how this is defensible as a moderator – or does it exhibit the same attitude as the original commentator?

Anyway that aside:
You seem to think that I have some ‘purpose’, or so you say and so I misinterpret what you say. This is not correct. I investigate and examine, evaluate and describe. The fact that I do not just take your words on face value and accept them blindly does not mean that I have decided to try to twist them. You use words like “Clearly you've not taken aboard anything that was discussed in the root cause of suffering thread and you seem firmly fixed on what you have always believed.” And “no matter how many times we've told you otherwise.” But this is not the case – that is the nature of a discussion – otherwise it is a mutual agreement group. I have no attachment to the now, I have no fear of looking and finding what may not fit any preconceived notions, or any worry about disturbing the picture that I need to exist of the now, no suffering if it does not fit my belief, so all I do is examine it.

Yes- we all live by our own perceptions, this is not something I deny, I accept it. Sometimes they can be flawed by time or distance, but they are what we perceive. We are all much the same in that.
I cannot answer at the moment what the barriers are, I am looking and I have some thoughts that they are about discounting aspects of ourselves, natural and inborn aspects in order to become immersed in the now, but I will eventually find the answer I think. That does not mean that they do not exist or that they are only of my making, if you are blind to them, if you are creating a blind spot then you would not see them. The problem is that you now are attached to the idea that there are none, that the now is limitless, and so this becomes a problem.
The formula 1 drivers have given this view of what they do, I see no reason for them to fabricate it to please others , and so it is not what I believe, but what they said, the fact that it does not fit your argument means you try to discount it as potentially false, this is from someone who keeps on trying to ‘tell me what is there’ and assumes I should accept it.
Regarding insurance, well you should do what you need to. I reason that if I can afford to replace something insurance is not good value, if not then it becomes a possible option. In order to avoid needing it therefore I have a fund that I use to replace goods, I can afford to replace them then so do not need to insure them.
The fact that wishes and hopes are about the future does not mean that you do not have them.
This “The light hitting my eyes IS the sun. “ simply reinforces the centric perception that living in the now creates.

I do not believe that living in the now excludes other aspects of our existence, I think that just as living in the now is a natural process so is the ability to relive events in our minds, so is the ability to look head, and to look to the future, and so on for all the aspects of our complex existence. Excluding many of these aspects that are natural and inborn does not allow our full potential to be explored. For instance you say “living in those past memories or creating ideas of the future is denying what is going on right here and Now. That's why so many people get distracted and make mistakes, because they are not focused on what is needed right now.” – I agree, but that does not mean that it has no value, instead of seeing it as valueless or something to be avoided we can embrace all that we are.

“Can anything actually exist that is not existing Now?” – yes- future hopes, lost loves and aspirations and of course the mind – just for a start. However this question of what exists in the now is a bit complex, for you say that the now contains everything, but also that the past cannot exist in the now, both cannot be true, somewhere in there lies a contradiction. The now is therefore constrained by time.

I have a long way to go before I reach my full potential, many lives, many people I meet and many experiences yet to come will continue to move me along my journey, if anyone thinks they are all they can be then they are selling themselves short I think.

“Are you aware of what's in other people's minds again?” – sometimes yes – I talk to them and I listen to them – I read what they write and Paul only offered three options – those were his words (sic).

“I myself do not believe I have given any misinformation. I've spoken the truth as I know it.” - yes –I appreciate that and see that is accurate.
love
chris

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Energylz
Posts: 16602
(@energylz)
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Hi Giles,
Regarding the comments from Derek I will just quote what you wrote to Malchy in your moderator mode in another thread, however it seems that you choose to apply these words depending on your own bias:
“Hi Malchy,
If you wish to judge and try and insult members of the forum by saying that we're squabbling, not open to new understanding or that we have big old egos, I'm more than happy to refer you to the forum guidelines (Discussion Forum Guidelines & Commercial Posting Rules) in respect of Language:
“Quote: Language: Any foul or hostile language used will not be tolerated. This includes any derogatory statements and profanity. Direct or indirect personal attacks are strictly not permitted. Insults and negative attitudes are not allowed. Saying you don't agree and why, can be done in a good humoured and polite way without causing offence.”
Perhaps you could explain the difference to me in this case…….. and how this is defensible as a moderator – or does it exhibit the same attitude as the original commentator?

I fail to see what you mean. There is no personal bias in what was said. The point of moderating the forums it to make sure people adhere to the guidelines set down by the site administrator. The language used by that member was clearly not polite and was clearly intended to insult all of us who were involved in the discussion. Yes a moderator has to make judgements, but the ability to moderate comes from being able to do so with as little personal bias as possible, and that involves removing oneself from any previous personal opinions of that person and just looking at the facts as they are there and now. I have no problem with such members taking part in discussions if they wish to contribute, but if they are clearly breaking the guidelines, as was the case there, then that has to be dealt with.

Anyway that aside:
You seem to think that I have some ‘purpose’, or so you say and so I misinterpret what you say. This is not correct. I investigate and examine, evaluate and describe. The fact that I do not just take your words on face value and accept them blindly does not mean that I have decided to try to twist them.

It has been quite apparent from what you post that somebody will say something and then you will repeat this back to their in your own interpretation which turns it around from what they meant. Even when they tell you that that is not what they meant, you persist that they meant otherwise. This is twisting people's words for your own purpose, which appears to be to discredit people chosing to live in the Now as excluding others, being non-compassionate and unloving etc. which we have all said is clearly not the case. You have described how you see the Now, and we have told you that this is not the Now that you are describing, but your own perceptions. You are correct that you shouldn't take anyone's word for it, and we've said so before. It must be put to the test. You only seem to have tested it in your mind, not in your life experience from what we read.

I have no attachment to the now, I have no fear of looking and finding what may not fit any preconceived notions, or any worry about disturbing the picture that I need to exist of the now, no suffering if it does not fit my belief, so all I do is examine it.

But not experience it?

Yes- we all live by our own perceptions, this is not something I deny, I accept it. Sometimes they can be flawed by time or distance, but they are what we perceive. We are all much the same in that.

Though we can remove or reduce those flaws by recognising how they occur and stopping that happening. We can make our perception see what is here and now rather than what our mind creates. And that's the point.

I cannot answer at the moment what the barriers are, I am looking and I have some thoughts that they are about discounting aspects of ourselves, natural and inborn aspects in order to become immersed in the now, but I will eventually find the answer I think.

You are still believing that living in the Now is about discounting or excluding things. Nothing is excluded when you live in the Now. The past memories exist, the future thoughts exist, our natural aspects of love and compassion and judgement and everything else exists, but we recognise them for what they are and don't let them effect us in this present moment adversely, whilst correctly using the skills, knowledge and things we have learnt from experience that are needed in this present moment. I've said it before and I'll say it again... it's all inclusive. I believe it's your belief of the exclusions that are the barriers you see, but they are not excluded and are not barriers in the Now.

That does not mean that they do not exist or that they are only of my making, if you are blind to them, if you are creating a blind spot then you would not see them. The problem is that you now are attached to the idea that there are none, that the now is limitless, and so this becomes a problem.

If I am driving a car and there is roadworks in the way, I could just stop and choose to go no further, but I can also see them for what they are and go around the roadworks. Just because I know I can go around the roadworks does not mean they cease to exist, but they are recognised as not being a barrier and so the road is opened up further than before. Your understanding seems to suggest that I would ignore the roadworks (not see them) and just end up driving into the big hole the gas board has dug in the road. :rolleyes:

The formula 1 drivers have given this view of what they do, I see no reason for them to fabricate it to please others , and so it is not what I believe, but what they said, the fact that it does not fit your argument means you try to discount it as potentially false, this is from someone who keeps on trying to ‘tell me what is there’ and assumes I should accept it.

As I said I don't assume you should accept anyting (even though you keep telling me that I do). You ask questions, I tell you what I know to be true, and you can test that if you choose, yet you only seem to 'examine' it in your mind, and the mind will do all sorts of tricks to make it look different. You say that the formula 1 driver would have no reason to fabricate what they say, but how do you know that for sure? If that were the case then you should believe everything the politicians tell you too, after all, what reason would they have to fabricate anything? 🙂

Regarding insurance, well you should do what you need to. I reason that if I can afford to replace something insurance is not good value, if not then it becomes a possible option. In order to avoid needing it therefore I have a fund that I use to replace goods, I can afford to replace them then so do not need to insure them.

Exactly, I do what is needed, not what others try and make me believe I need. As mentioned before, if I have spare cash I can keep that for when it is needed and for whatever purpose it is needed. Why tie it down to a particular thing and in such a way that the money cannot be retrieved for another purpose if needed, by using an insurance company.

The fact that wishes and hopes are about the future does not mean that you do not have them.

Of course not, but getting attached to them will not serve any purpose. If I spent all my time wishing I had more money and a bigger house, I would not be doing anything about it as my focus would simply be on wishing.

This “The light hitting my eyes IS the sun. “ simply reinforces the centric perception that living in the now creates.

That is really about solipsism. Nobody can prove that anything beyond what they perceive as their Self actually exists. It's not centric in the selfish manner which you seem to imply, but simply states fact. You cannot tell me that the sun is anything other than the light hitting your own eyes and the concepts that are created in mind to give it a label.

I do not believe that living in the now excludes other aspects of our existence...

That seems contrary to what you have said before?

..., I think that just as living in the now is a natural process so is the ability to relive events in our minds, so is the ability to look head, and to look to the future, and so on for all the aspects of our complex existence.

Yes, agreed, the mind has a natural tendancy to be able to live in the past and future, whilst processing input from the present moment. However, just because it's a natural process of the mind does not make it useful or productive to our Self, especially if it creates negative emotions or hurts us or others in some way, or detracts from the needs of the moment. Living in the now doesn't exclude the mind from it's natural processes, but allows us to recognise the needs of the moment and use the mind constructively to meet those needs, rather than the mind controlling us and losing that moment.

Excluding many of these aspects that are natural and inborn does not allow our full potential to be explored.

Hang on, you just said above that living in the now doesn't exclude other aspects, but now you say that is what is being done? Confused! :confused:

For instance you say “living in those past memories or creating ideas of the future is denying what is going on right here and Now. That's why so many people get distracted and make mistakes, because they are not focused on what is needed right now.” – I agree, but that does not mean that it has no value, instead of seeing it as valueless or something to be avoided we can embrace all that we are.

When we talk of "living in" the past or future, we are talking about being attached to it, to the extent that we miss what is going on now, just as when someone is daydreaming. It's a lack of awareness and doesn't really serve any purpose. Using knowledge from the past, such as a mathematician applying a formula they have previously learnt to a set of figures in the present moment, is still living in the now, but if they try and use that formula and their mind distracts them because they start thinking of when they learnt the formula and their teacher and the other students and what great days they had back then at university etc. etc. then this isn't serving a purpose.

“Can anything actually exist that is not existing Now?” – yes- future hopes, lost loves
and aspirations and of course the mind – just for a start.

But all those things are only existing now. Just because they are conceptually the past or future doesn't mean that they ARE the past or future. A future hope is a hope in the present moment about what may be in the future, but it isn't the future itself. A lost love is a memory and emotion in the present moment created from an imprint of the past in the mind, but it is not the past itself. The mind itself only exists in the now, though it's very creative at creating concepts and beliefs of the past and future.
Nothing you describe there shows anything existing that does not exist in the Now.

However this question of what exists in the now is a bit complex, for you say that the now contains everything, but also that the past cannot exist in the now, both cannot be true, somewhere in there lies a contradiction. The now is therefore constrained by time.

The past, as an event that happened does not exist in the now. The concept, memory etc. of that past event exists in the now, but it cannot be the whole event, because the whole event would involve the whole universe. Only the individual perception of the past is available to the individual mind, and that is why I refer to it as a corruption of the past. You don't have to look at that 'corruption' as a bad thing, but to believe it to actually be the past is not correct. If you like, you can say that there are patterns of the past imprinted in the present, but those patterns are just a present representation of the past.

I have a long way to go before I reach my full potential, many lives, many people I meet and many experiences yet to come will continue to move me along my journey, if anyone thinks they are all they can be then they are selling themselves short I think.

Maybe, maybe not. Who knows the future or what the 'journey' is supposed to entail or where it is supposed to end... supposing it does end. 😉

“Are you aware of what's in other people's minds again?” – sometimes yes – I talk to them and I listen to them – I read what they write and Paul only offered three options – those were his words (sic).

It is still only your perception. I've talked to people. I've listened to people. I've read their body language. People I've know all my life, I couldn't claim to know what is in their mind at any particular moment.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

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Hi Chris

I was not aware that calm and tranquillity is a prerequisite for living in the now though I do agree that the two usually seem to go together.

That is because you do not understand the Now.

In terms of sharing the now, well people can share past experiences, but each of them will have seen a different aspect of the same event and each will have different perceptions of ‘what the facts were’. The fact that it seems to be dependent upon what one sees (like the light from the sun) makes it such that there are commonalities but each person experiences something different.

No that is not what I am talking about, all is one, it is possible for people to come together and experience things in the Now in the same way, within the separate moments of time that we perceive as the present moment.

Regarding the sun, see what Giles says “The light hitting my eyes IS the sun. That's not corrupted light, that is just the light of the sun.” so now if that is true then the memories that are surfacing now are actually happening, they ARE reality, and this just does not work. The only explanation for this is that each person experiencing the now is an isolated experiential being, and so it once more appears to be centric. In the same way memories being relived are like the stars – the ones we are reliving are “all happening on this planet in the now.” If this is not true than the now as you see it is just based on what you choose to include and what you choose not to, it becomes a personal viewpoint and not an absolute.

There are only two absolutes within our existences here, one is that we come here and are born on this planet, the other is that we will die and leave this planet, everything else is fluid.

Everything which is happening within this present moment and the next etc, is happening in the Now.

If you want to experience the Now, just go outside and switch off your thinking mind and the background chatter, go deep within yourself and find the place of complete stillness, inner peace and harmony, now observe, merge and become one with all that surrounds you, then allow yourself to expand into all that is, for all is one within the Now.

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beckyboop922
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I cannot answer at the moment what the barriers are

Hi Chris this is just getting silly you have spent weeks both on this thread and the 'Root Cause' thread telling us what you think the barriers are.

Love

Rebecca

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Hi Giles,
Yes – repeating back what has been perceived is called reflection, it tests the understanding of what was said. If you assume that I should never translate what is said or simply take it as read, then it becomes a matter of dictat, or perhaps a religion. It is not a confirmation of what they mean but a synergy of what was said and what is perceived. Again you still insist that I have a purpose, is this not the same thing after I have said that I do not.

The now for any of us can only be our perceptions, this is why I have described it as centric. The sun that you see is not the same sun that anyone else sees, it is a singular view that relates only to your perceptions – that makes any perception centric. This is equally true of only focussing on ‘the needs of the moment’ – this actually is also about only the needs of the person involved, because it is their perceived moment – that does not exclude the fact that they may ‘need’ to help others, but it is their need.

There is however a common thread of insistence that if what is perceived does not fit what fits into the ‘must be right’ group that one immediately discredits it – this is done with almost religious fervour, for instance the formula 1 racing drivers – they do not fit what you would like so suddenly anything they say cannot be trusted, they may be lying for reasons known to themselves – this is just ridiculous, and if one takes it its full extent then only what you experience can be trusted, so you assume that the earth is flat (because you only see its flatness). If this is the kind of argument that the now needs to support it, and any questions thrown out about it then it has become truly a belief system. For instance you say that it includes all the stars, but you cannot see them all so how can you possibly know?

“As mentioned before, if I have spare cash I can keep that for when it is needed and for whatever purpose it is needed. Why tie it down to a particular thing and in such a way that the money cannot be retrieved for another purpose if needed, by using an insurance company. “ so you plan ahead with your money, this too is a form of insurance, just a different choice (not that I disagree with the choice).

For any of us, and indeed any system, full potential can only be realised by utilising all of the resources available.

“to the extent that we miss what is going on now, just as when someone is daydreaming. It's a lack of awareness and doesn't really serve any purpose.” – and this just underlines the sentence above – there is a place for daydreaming, not while driving or not while on has some task that needs full focus, but this “doesn't really serve any purpose” is exactly the kind of thing that I see as excluded. Many of the finest inventions and discoveries have been synergised while day dreaming. Reminiscing about times gone and friends is seen then as purposeless – how sad.

“Only the individual perception of the past is available to the individual mind, and that is why I refer to it as a corruption of the past.” – just as the sun as you know it is. The application of this is totally inconsistent.

The options Paul gave were listed, this is not down to my perception, they are his words, he wrote them, there is could be scope to translate them differently, but I counted them and pointed them out, so the standard fall back of ‘it is your perception’ and so it cannot be trusted is misplaced – there were only three.
“We can choose to live life now and experience it as it is happening to the full, or we can choose to ignore what is happening right now and be consumed with our memories of the past and fill ourselves with past longings and what ifs, alternatively we can also choose to ignore what is happening right now and be consumed with worry and fear of the future.”
Three options.

Hi Paul,
“If you want to experience the Now, just go outside and switch off your thinking mind” - this is the way to get to the now, it excludes the thinking mind in order to achieve “the calm and tranquillity”, and I see that, I have done it, but the question was is it the only way?
The exclusion (by switching off) of the thinking mind is key perhaps to the barriers I see. It assumes that allowing the mind to be present renders the now as unavailable – yet it is a natural and inborn part of each of us – so we seek to be less than we are in order to achieve some apparent sense of the joy of the now.
The switching off of the now is a form of blinding, it renders one less able to perceive than before, a small death.

“it is possible for people to come together and experience things in the Now in the same way, within the separate moments of time that we perceive as the present moment.” – perhaps (actually I think I agree with this), however given there is a difference (and perhaps this is the point) between ‘in the same way’ and ‘the same now’.

“There are only two absolutes within our existences here, one is that we come here and are born on this planet, the other is that we will die and leave this planet, everything else is fluid.” – actually given Giles’ questioning of what we are told versus what we experience neither of this is fixed if we have to rely on our earthy senses. We cannot remember the experience of being born and it is only others that have told us about it, and we will not (in an earthly) sense be able to experience the moment we die – lol.

“If you want to experience the Now, just go outside and switch off your thinking mind and the background chatter, go deep within yourself and find the place of complete stillness, inner peace and harmony, now observe, merge and become one with all that surrounds you, then allow yourself to expand into all that is, for all is one within the Now.” – yes – already described it, and it is a nice place to be, I have no problem with its existence or the feelings it generates. The question revolves more about whether it is ‘boundless’ and whether it allows one to achieve full potential – these I do not see as you do.

Hi Rebecca – I have spent a long time saying that I perceive barriers, I’ve struggled to describe them because it is not easy to investigate, I am working on it and have tried to give impressions of what they are, surly that is part of the point of this discussion.

love
chris

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Hi Chris

I have said to you on more that one occasion that I can't give you an understanding of the Now, it is something that has to come from within the fullness of self, you have to still more than the thinking mind if you want to get past the barriers that are being formed within consciousness, so that you can then not only perceive something which is unbound and limitless, but you will then be able to embrace and become one with it. 🙂

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Energylz
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Hi Giles,
Yes – repeating back what has been perceived is called reflection, it tests the understanding of what was said. If you assume that I should never translate what is said or simply take it as read,

How many times have I said that you should not take it as read? Which part of that are you missing? :confused:

There is however a common thread of insistence that if what is perceived does not fit what fits into the ‘must be right’ group that one immediately discredits it – this is done with almost religious fervour, for instance the formula 1 racing drivers – they do not fit what you would like so suddenly anything they say cannot be trusted, they may be lying for reasons known to themselves – this is just ridiculous,

It's not about what I like Chris. You used the formula 1 driver analogy to try and suggest that their mind was focused on the past. You made claim that you knew what was in their minds. I simply pointed out that you cannot make such a claim that you know their mind because you cannot know what they are focused on, and just because a person says something doesn't make it true (formula1 driver or anybody), otherwise you are just believing a person because they said so. You say that you can't just take our word for it about living in the Now and that you need to examine it yourself, yet you are happy to take a formula 1 drivers word for what they say? You seem to contradict yourself.
I'm not saying that everyone is lying, but I also cannot know that they tell the truth rather than what people expect them to say.

and if one takes it its full extent then only what you experience can be trusted,

Absolutely. Test everything for yourself, and make it knowledge, otherwise it's just untested information.

so you assume that the earth is flat (because you only see its flatness). If this is the kind of argument that the now needs to support it, and any questions thrown out about it then it has become truly a belief system. For instance you say that it includes all the stars, but you cannot see them all so how can you possibly know?

It's the universe as I know it. Solipsism. 😉

“As mentioned before, if I have spare cash I can keep that for when it is needed and for whatever purpose it is needed. Why tie it down to a particular thing and in such a way that the money cannot be retrieved for another purpose if needed, by using an insurance company. “ so you plan ahead with your money, this too is a form of insurance, just a different choice (not that I disagree with the choice).

It's not planning for the future. I have no idea of what the future will bring. The spare cash is just cash that isn't needed in this moment so it is put aside and if it is needed in the future then it will be used, if it isn't it won't be. The focus is not on what will happen, but what is needed now. There's no plan as to what will happen in the future. That's the difference you are failing to see.

For any of us, and indeed any system, full potential can only be realised by utilising all of the resources available.

You mean meeting the needs of the moment? :rolleyes:

“to the extent that we miss what is going on now, just as when someone is daydreaming. It's a lack of awareness and doesn't really serve any purpose.” – and this just underlines the sentence above – there is a place for daydreaming, not while driving or not while on has some task that needs full focus, but this “doesn't really serve any purpose” is exactly the kind of thing that I see as excluded. Many of the finest inventions and discoveries have been synergised while day dreaming. Reminiscing about times gone and friends is seen then as purposeless – how sad.

So, again you know the minds of those who have invented and made discoveries. You really are a talented mind reader it seems. Daydreaming only detracts from things in the present moment. Admittedly, if things in the moment are distracting us from the needs of the moment (such as figuring out how to make an invention work) then daydreaming can be less of a distraction than those others and can help to bring us towards a focus, but not completely. Only focusing on the need itself can do that.

“Only the individual perception of the past is available to the individual mind, and that is why I refer to it as a corruption of the past.” – just as the sun as you know it is. The application of this is totally inconsistent.

I haven't observed any inconsistency, except in your manipulation of what we say to you.

Hi Paul,
“If you want to experience the Now, just go outside and switch off your thinking mind” - this is the way to get to the now, it excludes the thinking mind in order to achieve “the calm and tranquillity”, and I see that, I have done it, but the question was is it the only way?
The exclusion (by switching off) of the thinking mind is key perhaps to the barriers I see. It assumes that allowing the mind to be present renders the now as unavailable – yet it is a natural and inborn part of each of us – so we seek to be less than we are in order to achieve some apparent sense of the joy of the now.
The switching off of the now is a form of blinding, it renders one less able to perceive than before, a small death.

There are different states of mind. The thinking mind is distracting and serves no purpose. Yet, when focused on the needs of the present moment, the mind can be put to use as a good tool for solving and dealing with the needs.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

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Energylz
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Saw this and thought it apt for this thread. 🙂

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Hi Giles,
I have not said that I know what is in a racing driver’s mind, I have related what they have said about what was in their mind, at least that was the intent. Now there is scope that for some reason they are lying, but we evaluate everything everyone says and judge its veracity, and in this case I have no reason to doubt it, I do not see why you do except that is does not fit your model of the now. If you (quoting back “Absolutely. Test everything for yourself, and make it knowledge, otherwise it's just untested information.”) were driving along and a sign says the road is closed ahead do you always assume someone is lying, that only personal experience of the road being closed will suffice and so venture on past the sign to check? We take on trust (at least to some degree what people say –it is an evaluation process). The more investment in what is being said that the speaker has the less we are likely to trust it at face value. If however you practise true solipsism then I can only assume you take nothing that is said as correct until you have personally tested it.

“For any of us, and indeed any system, full potential can only be realised by utilising all of the resources available.” “You mean meeting the needs of the moment?”
Yes and No actually – it can be about meeting the needs of the moment, but it can equally be for the future – education is a bit like this for instance – I do not allow only the ‘moment’ to be the sole facet, it is only one part of the whole.

“Daydreaming only detracts from things in the present moment.” – yes that is probably true, but again it is not just the present moment that is important – daydreaming is a bit like freethinking, it has value – it is about imagination, and is a valuable part of who we are – so valuable in fact that scientists are trying to teach computers to daydream. Bell reported that he was daydreaming when he invented the telephone – as a small example – and Issac Newton was a daydreamer apparently. I fail to understand why aspects like these must play no part in one’s life or are regarded as detrimental in some way – they are valuable and natural parts of who we are - “The thinking mind is distracting and serves no purpose.” and if there was evidence of the closed mind set that it causes the last statement is a prime example.
love
chris

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Energylz
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Hi Giles,
I have not said that I know what is in a racing driver’s mind, I have related what they have said about what was in their mind, at least that was the intent. Now there is scope that for some reason they are lying, but we evaluate everything everyone says and judge its veracity, and in this case I have no reason to doubt it, I do not see why you do except that is does not fit your model of the now.

As I pointed out, we wouldn't know their motivation and thus we cannot know their mind. It's possible they are telling the truth, but it's also possible they are aware they are on TV and they are role models for a new generation wanting to be drivers, so they are saying what they expect the audience wants to hear. Many people in life will admit that they say what they expect people want to hear in many situations. It doesn't have to be outright lying, but it doesn't necessarily have to be the truth. So, the outcome of the point is that, just because they say it, doesn't make it true, and thus using others as an example to prove that there is benefit from living in the past is not a valid proof, and certainly wouldn't stand up to scientific scrutiny.

If you (quoting back “Absolutely. Test everything for yourself, and make it knowledge, otherwise it's just untested information.”) were driving along and a sign says the road is closed ahead do you always assume someone is lying, that only personal experience of the road being closed will suffice and so venture on past the sign to check?

No, I don't assume that anyone is lying, but I also don't assume that it's necesarily the truth. As it happens I often do venture past the "Road Closed" signs, as typically there is room for cars to get past for "access" purposes, and more often than not you will find that the "access" still allows you to drive down the road and come out the other end where the other "Road Closed" sign is. So, that may seem odd to you, but I do often find out for myself from personal experience. Of course, before you jump to the obvious pedantic extremes, I do observe road signs, so if it says there's a junction ahead and I've to give way, I don't just drive as if there's no junction or carry on without giving way. That would just be ridiculous, as such sign are obviously permanent and there for direction and awareness at that moment.

We take on trust (at least to some degree what people say –it is an evaluation process). The more investment in what is being said that the speaker has the less we are likely to trust it at face value. If however you practise true solipsism then I can only assume you take nothing that is said as correct until you have personally tested it.

It's all valid information, but not knowledge till it's tested, that's correct. And you are correct that some people will have more investment in what they are talking about than others (some politicians or salespeople being obvious examples, but read what follows...), so the key is not to assume that people are lying but to actually not pass judgement or assume that something must be true just because the information has been given. There is no doubt some very trustworthy and honest politicians and salespeople, and it is reputation and ideas from the past that create such judgments in us. If we live in the now we can simply listen to what a person has to say in that moment, and test it without judgement as much as possible.

“For any of us, and indeed any system, full potential can only be realised by utilising all of the resources available.” “You mean meeting the needs of the moment?”
Yes and No actually – it can be about meeting the needs of the moment, but it can equally be for the future – education is a bit like this for instance – I do not allow only the ‘moment’ to be the sole facet, it is only one part of the whole.

Not sure I understand you. How can resources be available in the future that you can use at this moment in time?

“Daydreaming only detracts from things in the present moment.” – yes that is probably true, but again it is not just the present moment that is important – daydreaming is a bit like freethinking, it has value – it is about imagination, and is a valuable part of who we are – so valuable in fact that scientists are trying to teach computers to daydream.

The point is that it doesn't serve a purpose unless a particular need is required from it. If someone is using their imagination, it's only of value if they are doing it to meed a need at this time. A writer who has a need to write a book, will use their imagination to meed that need. A schoolchild who is in class using their imagination to create a story in their mind of how they are a spaceman fighting off monsters etc. is not meeting the need if they are in the middle of a maths lesson. The difference is that one is using the mind as a tool and the other is letting the mind distract them from the moment. The mind has it's place, but not when it's doing the controlling.

Bell reported that he was daydreaming when he invented the telephone – as a small example – and Issac Newton was a daydreamer apparently. I fail to understand why aspects like these must play no part in one’s life or are regarded as detrimental in some way – they are valuable and natural parts of who we are - “The thinking mind is distracting and serves no purpose.” and if there was evidence of the closed mind set that it causes the last statement is a prime example.

I assume that was meant as some sort of insult. As you wish Chris, that's your choice, and simply highlights how your mind is taking the words incorrectly and putting them within the tight limits of its own belief. My point was that the thinking mind takes control of us rather than us using the mind as a tool. It seems your mind wants to read it differently though and try and use that as an attack against those who choose to live in the Now. This is the nature of personality and I accept that personalities are not truly who you are.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

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Hi Giles,

You say
“Living in the now doesn't exclude the mind from it's natural processes, but allows us to recognise the needs of the moment and use the mind constructively to meet those needs”
“The mind itself only exists in the now”
“The thinking mind is distracting and serves no purpose”

Paul says “If you want to experience the Now, just go outside and switch off your thinking mind”

These however I read them are just inconsistent – and this may well be why you advocate personal testing I suppose.

I used education as an example of planning for possibilities, it is something we all do, we take in information and learn skills that we may never use as part of being prepared for the day that we might use them. Learning all this stuff does nothing to meet the needs of this moment, but there is a chance that it might meet the needs of a moment in the future if that wording works better for you.

In terms of daydreaming I disagree, daydreaming can have benefits without having a specific goal, in fact this is some of the times when man is at his most inventive, when possibilities are seen and it is this that can then give direction to actions to make these ‘dreams’ real. This is not just ‘thinking outside the box’ stuff, it is actually a lot less directed and has many more options.

No – no – no insult intended, apologies if that is how it read, I see that by saying that “The thinking mind is distracting and serves no purpose” for instance that this does force closure on other options, it seems that much of the meaning and process of ‘the now’ is very limiting in that it insists that things are only seen in a singular manner – or at least that is how it feels.
love
chris

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