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The Great Climate Silence

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Crowan
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Thoughts?

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amy green
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The response to this march would refute that finding

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Crowan
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Actually, I would say it proves it.

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amy green
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Actually, I would say it proves it.

Huh? The march was directed to one ignorant man who is in denial - Trump! The level of support for climate change and scientists is clearly shown on the 600 marches!

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Crowan
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There are plenty of people who are aware that climate change is happening, that - unless we act 'now' or 'soon' it may be 'too late'. I know from things you have posted before that you come into that camp. But the article was about the fact that we have already gone 'too far'.
"Our best scientists tell us insistently that a calamity is unfolding, that the life-support systems of the Earth are being damaged in ways that threaten our survival."

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amy green
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I heard today that Trump is, predictably, dragging his feet re. confirming the commitment to cut carbon emissions, made in Paris (2 years ago) on climate change. He said that he will make a decision as to whether or not to sign up next week. I am SO angry at his damn arrogance and moronic attitude! Is US so powerful that they can jeopardize this important deal? It can go ahead without this idiot can't it?

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 mac
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Sadly the behaviour of morons is, well, moronic; stupid is as stupid does. It's probably wholly unrealistic to expect anything other than that from a man who showed exactly what he is throughout his campaigning.

I HAD once hoped we might have read him wrong, that there was more to him than we saw before he became president - yeah, right!

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Crowan
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I heard today that Trump is, predictably, dragging his feet re. confirming the commitment to cut carbon emissions, made in Paris (2 years ago) on climate change. He said that he will make a decision as to whether or not to sign up next week. I am SO angry at his damn arrogance and moronic attitude! Is US so powerful that they can jeopardize this important deal? It can go ahead without this idiot can't it?

The Paris agreement was a drop in the ocean - there was nothing in it that could change anything, even if we had time to change. That being so, there's no point in worrying about what Trump does or doesn't do.

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amy green
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The Paris agreement was a drop in the ocean - there was nothing in it that could change anything, even if we had time to change. That being so, there's no point in worrying about what Trump does or doesn't do.

Trump represents a huge country so that's a lot of cut carbon emissions!
Something is better than nothing, i.e. confirming their commitment to cutting back on carbon. Clearly you feel it is all too late then. Why bother even posting on the topic then? I feel you DO still have some hope (if that's not a swear word to you).

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 mac
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The Paris agreement was a drop in the ocean - there was nothing in it that could change anything, even if we had time to change. That being so, there's no point in worrying about what Trump does or doesn't do.

You're right! I fear that if anything ever gets agreed it will be too little and come too late. I'll probably be dead but I feel for the generations who face unprecedented, severe climate changes. Teflon Don will be remembered just in history books.

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Crowan
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You're right! I fear that if anything ever gets agreed it will be too little and come too late. I'll probably be dead but I feel for the generations who face unprecedented, severe climate changes. Teflon Don will be remembered just in history books.

This will be your generation. This is already your generation. Unprecedented, severe climate change is already with us. On the plus side there won't be any history books.

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Crowan
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Trump represents a huge country so that's a lot of cut carbon emissions!
Something is better than nothing, i.e. confirming their commitment to cutting back on carbon. Clearly you feel it is all too late then. Why bother even posting on the topic then? I feel you DO still have some hope (if that's not a swear word to you).

Whatever you feel I have is in your head.
Yes. It's too late. All hope is doing is blinding us to the reality. What do you think can happen? Realistically, not hopium.

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amy green
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Whatever you feel I have is in your head.
Yes. It's too late. All hope is doing is blinding us to the reality. What do you think can happen? Realistically, not hopium.

Well what I felt was accurate then (not in my head/imagination) since you confirm what I said you felt, i.e. that it's too late.

Hoping can be like wishing....no harm in it if supported by measures to bolster that wish.

Can happen or will happen? I think there are too many variables (as I have said before). Predicting on the current scenario is not to factor in these unforeseen, influential variables.

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 mac
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This will be your generation. This is already your generation. Unprecedented, severe climate change is already with us. On the plus side there won't be any history books.

You MIGHT be right that the changing weather patterns herald the start of the severe changes that are down to humankind rather than natural global cycles and variations.

It's hard to sort out how much is natural and how much is human activity and largely acedemic unless humankind acts globally to minimise future impact. And that's not looking likely right now but who knows what of the future?

Never say never - look who's president of the USA!

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Crowan
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Well what I felt was accurate then (not in my head/imagination) since you confirm what I said you felt, i.e. that it's too late.
.

Huh?

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amy green
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Huh?

Oh this is tedious....(sighs) here goes then.

I said that clearly you feel it is too late.

You replied Whatever you feel I have is in your head.

Soooo..... I was accurate then (not in my head/imagination) since you confirm what I said you felt, i.e. that it's too late.

I shouldn't have to spell this out. The posts all follow on from each other with logical progression. Please refer to recent past posts if you do not understand.

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Crowan
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You said:

I feel you DO still have some hope (if that's not a swear word to you).

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amy green
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You said:

Ah OK - my mistake then. You still haven't addressed what I posed in that post though, i.e. I don't understand why anyone would post on this issue if they had no hope....it suggests otherwise else why bother?

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Crowan
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Ah OK - my mistake then. You still haven't addressed what I posed in that post though, i.e. I don't understand why anyone would post on this issue if they had no hope....it suggests otherwise else why bother?

I think maybe you are seeing hope as the opposite of despair? Depression? I don't. I have an understanding, from my shamanic work, that there is a spiritual way through for some souls. This is mainly what I teach now and the reason I've been very bitty about replying over the last few days is that I have a student staying with me at the moment and we have been working through just this issue.
There is no future for civilization. I don't think there is a future for humanity - if there is it will be for isolated pockets here and there. The evidence adds up to extinction for humans - and most mammals, birds, amphibians and fish. Possibly for all life.
Some (not all) souls can make it through, since - on a spiritual level - this is Ragnarök, not Armageddon.

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amy green
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I think maybe you are seeing hope as the opposite of despair? Depression? I don't. I have an understanding, from my shamanic work, that there is a spiritual way through for some souls. This is mainly what I teach now and the reason I've been very bitty about replying over the last few days is that I have a student staying with me at the moment and we have been working through just this issue.
There is no future for civilization. I don't think there is a future for humanity - if there is it will be for isolated pockets here and there. The evidence adds up to extinction for humans - and most mammals, birds, amphibians and fish. Possibly for all life.
Some (not all) souls can make it through, since - on a spiritual level - this is Ragnarök, not Armageddon.

I see the opposite of hope as giving up/abandonment. You have declared here what has been evident from your posts, i.e. that we have no future so I am still puzzled that you contribute to such environmental threads! Why? To bring us all down and say why bother? Do you begrudge that people are still trying to make a difference (however futile you may regard that)? Your motive is not clear to me...is it that you hope to offer your shamanism?

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I believe in hope and the changes that are presented to us that are a struggle or difficult to provide still a sense of hope. I think about all the persons in POW camps over the hundreds or even thousands of years that believed in hope and how that survived. Yes our earth in serious trouble serious. I still personally try to have hope and we as a family do what we can. Omg..let's at least have hope.

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Crowan
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I see the opposite of hope as giving up/abandonment. You have declared here what has been evident from your posts, i.e. that we have no future so I am still puzzled that you contribute to such environmental threads! Why? To bring us all down and say why bother? Do you begrudge that people are still trying to make a difference (however futile you may regard that)? Your motive is not clear to me...is it that you hope to offer your shamanism?

This is not the first time that you have suggested my mentioning shamanism is somehow in order to – what? Make converts? Increase my income? I have not noticed that you take this attitude with anyone else’s belief system.

I said already,

I think maybe you are seeing hope as the opposite of despair? Depression? I don't.

Okay, “despair, depression” are not quite the same as “giving up/abandonment”, but I have said in the past that I do not share your perception. I do not think that trying to make a difference is futile. I do think that we are not going to save civilization.

‘Hope’ is a word that is generally used to mean an expectation and trust that something will happen. For example, a few days ago The Guardian reported that recent polls gave Corbyn and the Labour Party “crumbs of hope”. We all know what that means – that they can have a little, not much, hope of winning the election. Just as we know what it means to say that Paul Nuttall has “no hope” of being the next Prime Minister”. I’d like Leanne Wood to become the Welsh Leader, but I can’t honestly say I hope she will. I do, however, hope that she gets nearer to it than she is at the moment. Hope has to have a semblance of reality about it, at the very least.

You have, yourself, said:

Hope against all the odds may be a different thing....it can turn into faith.

So, I have no hope for civilization. Whether some few hundred, scattered humans might survive, I don’t know. I hope so. I can use ‘hope’ here because that might still be on the cards – although getting less so rapidly.

You also said:

I think it is very important - it keeps people buoyant.

Why is buoyancy more important than reality? Is false hope to be recommended, as well?

If you believe there is still genuine hope, please show me your evidence.

I still personally try to have hope and we as a family do what we can. Omg..let's at least have hope.

Zandalee, I could say pretty much the same to you – where is your evidence? Or is ‘hope’ unrelated to evidence?

Hope keeps the masses drugged (hence ‘hopium’). If we had woken up to the fact that the climate situation is hopeless several years ago, then we’d have maybe done something while we could.

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amy green
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This is not the first time that you have suggested my mentioning shamanism is somehow in order to – what? Make converts? Increase my income? I have not noticed that you take this attitude with anyone else’s belief system.

How odd that you take my enquiry cynically! It was not meant that way at all but to try and understand why you post on a subject that you feel is doomed. You still haven't given a reason for this by the way.... I just can't work out why you would bother with a subject that you obviously regard as defunct. Surely it can't be to try and bring us all down? You don't have a monopoly on reality i.e. we are all subject to the media and what version of reality we are presented. Propaganda exists although, of course, nature has been showing us signs of her distress for ages now.

You also said: Why is buoyancy more important than reality? Is false hope to be recommended, as well?

If you believe there is still genuine hope, please show me your evidence.

I have never said buoyancy is more important than reality...that is your take on my saying that hope is important, i.e. that it keeps us buoyant. Nothing wrong in trying to maintain an upbeat stance in life... there are enough negatives in it to bring us all down if that is our focus! I used to be fatalistic and melancholic. I had a transforming turning point and now have a positive mindset hardwired into me. I rejoice in that and don't look back!

We can either make the most of the positives or just give ourselves (and our life) a hard time...the choice is ours. That I see we are in a dire situation is not to say I have to dwell on it - what's the point unless it's to try and make a difference? I have told you (several times now) that all we have are predictions based on the current situation. Who knows what unknown influential factors will change that prediction hence there is some hope.

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Crowan
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How odd that you take my enquiry cynically! It was not meant that way at all but to try and understand why you post on a subject that you feel is doomed. You still haven't given a reason for this by the way.... I just can't work out why you would bother with a subject that you obviously regard as defunct. Surely it can't be to try and bring us all down? You don't have a monopoly on reality i.e. we are all subject to the media and what version of reality we are presented. Propaganda exists although, of course, nature has been showing us signs of her distress for ages now.

I have never said buoyancy is more important than reality...that is your take on my saying that hope is important, i.e. that it keeps us buoyant. Nothing wrong in trying to maintain an upbeat stance in life... there are enough negatives in it to bring us all down if that is our focus! I used to be fatalistic and melancholic. I had a transforming turning point and now have a positive mindset hardwired into me. I rejoice in that and don't look back!

We can either make the most of the positives or just give ourselves (and our life) a hard time...the choice is ours. That I see we are in a dire situation is not to say I have to dwell on it - what's the point unless it's to try and make a difference? I have told you (several times now) that all we have are predictions based on the current situation. Who knows what unknown influential factors will change that prediction hence there is some hope.

Okay - you have no hope to share.

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amy green
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Okay - you have no hope to share.

I have doubt to share i.e. I do not buy that we are doomed. Your mindset is firmly entrenched...not sure how receptive you can be therefore to reappraising that, i.e. you are no longer open minded on this topic. Care to share why you bother to post on this issue? Or do you have a reason to constantly avoid answering that question? To be interactive on these posts when you have no hope doesn't bode well motive wise.... You can't drag me down!

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Crowan
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I have doubt to share i.e. I do not buy that we are doomed. Your mindset is firmly entrenched...not sure how receptive you can be therefore to reappraising that, i.e. you are no longer open minded on this topic. Care to share why you bother to post on this issue? Or do you have a reason to constantly avoid answering that question? To be interactive on these posts when you have no hope doesn't bode well motive wise.... You can't drag me down!

I bother to post for discussion. (And there's evidence in itself that I can keep hoping even though the evidence for sensible discussion is lacking!) If you have already decided that I am not receptive to reappraising our 'doom', is that why you only argue from a personal viewpoint rather than with information concerning studies?

I have looked at the evidence. I see no future for civilization. However, new evidence can change my mind - it has done on many topics and it might on climate science. I doubt it because I doubt that there is that evidence.

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amy green
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I bother to post for discussion. (And there's evidence in itself that I can keep hoping even though the evidence for sensible discussion is lacking!) If you have already decided that I am not receptive to reappraising our 'doom', is that why you only argue from a personal viewpoint rather than with information concerning studies?

There you go! THAT is what my first suggestion was, i.e. that you post because you haven't given up, i.e. still have hope!

I just heard that Trump didn't sign up - no surprise. Now I am pretty depressed. There is a thread on this topic (another forum) that says....

some hope?

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Crowan
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Prof. Jian Shuisheng of the Jiatong-University estimates the production of just 6 solar panels requires one ton of coal. This works out to about 660 lbs of coal per square yard of solar panel. This is because the silicon has to be baked at 2,000°F. One company cut down 5 acres of woodland to install solar panels to manufacture plastic bags.

The manufacture of solar panels lets off some of the deadliest greenhouse gases known to humankind. These include hexafluoroethane (12,000 times stronger than CO2), nitrogen trifluoride (17,000 times stronger than C02), and sulfur hexafluoride (23,000 times stronger than C02). Solar manufacturing plants produce 500 tons of hazardous sludge each per year. This sludge is never included in the solar industry carbon footprint data. Chinese solar waste disposal firms have been witnessed dumping this waste behind school yards.

Five kilograms of hydrogen chloride per square meter of solar panel is used to liquefy the metallic silicon. Silicon carbide is used to cut the silicon into wafers. Cadmium telluride panels, or emerging thin film technologies, utilize untested nanomaterials that pose a threat to the environment and workers during the manufacturing and recycling stage.

Dust, humidity, haze, and even heat dramatically affect solar panel output. Solar panels lose up to 1% of their efficiency each year lasting some 20 - 30 years, after which they become toxic waste, containing things like cadmium and other heavy metals. While the cost of the silicon wafers are dropping, they only make up 20% of the installed costs.

And so on.

I expressed exactly how much hope I have, and in what. I repeat, I have no hope for civilization. I have some slight hope that some very few humans might survive. I have a bit more hope that some life on earth will survive.

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amy green
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I have now heard that the reason Trump doesn't want to sign up is that it puts a stranglehold on economy. Although obvious, that hadn't occurred to me.

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Crowan
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I have now heard that the reason Trump doesn't want to sign up is that it puts a stranglehold on economy. Although obvious, that hadn't occurred to me.

Well, he's wrong there, isn't he?
My guess would be that he doesn't want to sign up in part because many of his supporters are Climate Change deniers and in part because he has investments in fossil fuels.

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