Foregiveness, enough in itself?

RE: Foregiveness, enough in itself?

Sunanda,

If a person doesn't learn by his actions and demonstrate remorse for them, then any forgiveness will be meaningless because he can then turn around and slap you on the other cheek.

Rosi - again, forgiving a rapist is forgetting if he doesn't know that he's been forgiven for the act. If he is brought to trial then a measure of forgiveness can be given. It seems to me that there is a distinct line between 'forgiving' and 'forgetting.' If the same person did the same thing again the memory of the first attack would be brought back. That's memory retrieval and doesn't relieve the burden on anyone. True forgiveness cuts both ways - the forgiver who is willing to forgive, and the forgiven who realises what he has done, is sorry for it, and learns by his actions.

Love,
Patsy.
xxxxxx

RE: Foregiveness, enough in itself?

Sorry Sunanda, I meant to say that the example you used of the mother who forgave her daughter's murderer. Was she truly 'forgiving' him, or not? Was it uttered from shock or not? It would be extremely unusual for someone in that position to just forgive the deliberate killing of one's child so soon, no matter what the circumstances. Often, forgiveness comes many years after the original act, and then only when the perpetrator has shown true remorse for his action.

Not forgiving someone doesn't mean that it will be carried around with you. The only thing that gets carried around in such circumstances is the knowledge that the person responsible will have to live with the fact that he hasn't earned forgiveness. That's truly a terrible burden to carry.

Love,
Patsy.
xxxxxxxx

RE: Foregiveness, enough in itself?

Often, forgiveness comes many years after the original act, and then only when the perpetrator has shown true remorse for his action.

I agree that forgiveness a lot of the time comes after years of the original act, and to some it comes quicker than others but again it has nothing to do with the perpetrator showing remorse for his/her actions. But I feel like I'm repeating myself here.

How can you say that forgiveness is just about the perpetrator showing remorse, this is not how it always happens, so this being the case, it is possible to forgive without the perpetrator knowing.

The only thing that gets carried around in such circumstances is the knowledge that the person responsible will have to live with the fact that he hasn't earned forgiveness. That's truly a terrible burden to carry.

Speaking from experience, the burden is in dealing with the pain of what has been done to you, that is the burden, and the biggest burden,you are in your own hell. What gets carried around is what has been done to you, a bigger burden than whether the perpetrator has shown remorse or not.

It has just occurred to me that forgiveness may be the first stage of healing and beginning to move on: which is surely healthier than getting stuck in a loop of reliving the injury forever.

Sunanda, I so agree with the above.

Love and light
Rosi X

RE: Foregiveness, enough in itself?

Hi Patsy,

Like Startingtoheal, I also agree with you 100% - anyone who has committed a wrongful act against someone else has to acknowledge that it is wrong before any healing can take place within that person, or those they cause suffering to.

There are many criminals of all kinds, drug pushers, rapists, murderers, etc., etc., and the less dramatic people who cause pain to others by rejection, bullying, ignorance etc., etc., unless any single one realises that what they are doing is affecting another person(s) badly, then they obviously have no conscience, no remorse and no regret.

If the perpetrator is unmoved by his crimes, then it is feasible for the victim to forgive him/her, that is entirely subjective and up to the person, the victim concerned, however, it will not serve any purpose other than to help the victim to come to terms with the crime committed upon them. As is understood, the majority of victims believe, falsely, that they were somehow 'responsible' for the crime - and by forgiving the perpetrator, they forgive themselves.;)

With respect to other's opinions, IMO we have to use commonsense in thinking about forgiveness, as in everything in life. Perhaps we forget? that we are grounded on Earth in a three - four dimensional reality, possibly for a purpose, and we have to DEAL with the reality we are in here and now. It feels very nice to forgive someone, but it doesn't solve the problem of how to stop them doing it again, or, get through to most of them in the first place;)

Perhaps I can point towards human nature here. Throwing the light directly on myself, I can see that, far from being a criminal, nevertheless I am certain to have hurt, however unintentionally, many people through the course of my life. In each and every case, looking back, I can see (lovely thing hindsight);) that I was blinded to the truth of what I was doing, simply by putting myself and my own feelings first. The lesson? To think before acting, which I try to do now, but, it took a good part of my life to learn this[&o]. And that's what we are up against, in larger and smaller form, the inability for most people to see what they have done, or to acknowledge they are done wrong.

And coming back to that, they cannt accept forgiveness, spiritually or otherwise, until this acknowledgement is firmly in place.

Just MHO;)

Gxxxx

RE: Foregiveness, enough in itself?

You know, those of you who choose to hang onto anger and resentment (re-sending the evil back) are perfectly entitled to do so. After all, for countless generatons, all over the world, people have refused to forgive and have held onto hatred, feeling that somehow this is a punishment for those who they perceive have done them wrong. This has caused countless incidennces of suffering (even death), right up to present times - look at all the ethnic cleansing all over the world, look at Northern Ireland, look at Israel and Palestine, at how those who refuse to forgive are trying to ransack the future of Iraq and now, this refusal to forgive has come to London and caused death here.

On the other hand, if you choose to forgive, not only are you freeing that person to reform and become the character you would like to see, but you are, above all else, freeing yourself from pain and ill-health. I typed FORGIVE into the search box on www.spirituality.com and they had 149 articles on forgivness - here are some excerpts from just 3 of them:

Forgiveness holds hands with spiritual healing

Walking through the woods with his little grandson, a Native American grandfather said, “There are two wolves fighting in my heart. One is filled with anger, bitterness and resentment; the other is filled with love, trust and compassion.” His grandson asked, “Which will win?” “The one I feed,” he answered.

http://tinyurl.com/8r9kz

Forgive and your health won't forget

A growing body of research reveals that those who are forgiving not only have improved relationships, but fewer health problems and lower incidence of the most serious illnesses.

To be angry is not good for your health, says Herbert Benson, president of Harvard's Mind/Body Medical Institute. "Hatred is a banquet until you recognize you are the main course." Forgiveness reduces anger and stress, and 60 to 90 percent of all the business that comes to physicians is stress-related, he says.

http://tinyurl.com/8lr2o

And here is an interveiw with a researcher on forgivness who learnt a big lesson when his own mother was murdered:

Forgiving the unforgivable

Here I was, a person who does research on forgiveness, and when I was confronted with myself there in the early morning hours, I realized I had gone the whole day, and I had probably never thought of even the word forgiveness. I was just consumed with anger and rage. Forgiveness never entered my mind.”

“I was well aware of the research that shows that people get stuck in expressing negative emotions. It makes them, in the end, have physical problems and mental problems and relational problems. But if people can move past the expression of the negative and get a different perspective on things, then that results in changes that are positive—physical health that’s positive, and mental health—as well as relationships that are better.”

..........And as I look back on this whole thing, nothing[/] will make that murder itself anything but just pure evil. But I think of being able to forgive this person as a gift from God.”