The Root cause Of Suffering .

I see suffering as a symptom

I agree Chris .

A damp carpet Is a symptom of a hole being In the roof . If we keep on replacing the carpet Instead of fixing the leak In the roof we will be forever changing the carpet .

daz .

Hi WildStrawberry,

If you heal people's thought patterns and beleifs... what is there left to do?

We also have to give them the tools and conceptual understanding to empower them to move forward in a positive, meaningful and self serving way. 🙂

If you have healed people's thought patterns and beleifs.. then it wasn't all their doing /responsibility... surely?

Yes. We are all ultimately responsible for our own thought patterns and beliefs, nobody can force anyone to think in a certain way or believe anything which they do not choose to embrace, the buck stops with self.

We have found that open and non-judgemental self acceptance, helps people to move positively forward in a self serving and meaningful way.

(Paul, I hope this isn't coming across as me mindlessly 'picking on you' ~ because that's not my intention:))

Not at all, if we do not ask, then we are left with uncertainty. 🙂

Hi Daz

Ah Paul - It matters not If an Individual does or doesn’t believe that what they are Is God . Beliefs do not make what we are to be anything other than what we are . Does an Individual that believes / perceives that they are God automatically become wise and all powerful do they automatically reconnect with the oneness only on the basis that they think that God is what they are?

What makes you think that a God has to be wise, intelligent or all powerful?

...do they automatically reconnect with the oneness only on the basis that they think that God is what they are?.

Nice, how can they reconnect to something that they were never disconnected from only by the illusory perceptions you keep mentioning?

I have to say Nice, you seem to be typing a soliloquy and not giving Paul any credit for Knowing any of this stuff - have you read his website?

So yes- I do understand - and I do sympathise. There are (more often than we would like it) times when we just wish it could all be made right for us - and the promise that someone will just take it all away and we can return to normality is appealing to say the least. This is the time when people are at their most vulnerable and their defences are at their weakest, and it is when we all feel the urge most to help.

Hi Chris, I am still a tad stoned from last night so do forgive me if I've misunderstood what you have written above, but I am not looking for somebody to 'take it all away for me' if I wanted that I would go and see my loony GP and get a potion from her, nor do I want anything 'made alright for me' I am not looking for help that does not necessitate my participation. Even when I was at my most weak and vulnerable I still did not want anybody to do it for me, I think the penny would drop for you a lot easier if you stopped believing that people are all in one box, some people like I said earlier are at a stage where they have done all their suffering, felt all their vulnerabilities etc and are ready for something new with the promise of lasting changes around self empowerment etc, the dissection of all the issues and underlying causes of suffering is something I have done for 9 years and I was still in crisis every 5 days out of 7 before my guides (gawd bless em) led me to Paul so therefore it could be argued that I am a typical example of somebody for whom all the dissecting, enquiring, empathy, 3 core conditons of counselling and healing has not worked, that's not to say it's been of no benefit for me it's been of enormous benefit but the bottom line is I was still suffering (a lot!) 9 years after the healing began and the reason for this is because I have been taught that everything must be felt, thinking is forbidden on pain of death and or never getting to qualify in counselling and Transactional Analysis but there is only so much feeling you can do before it dawns on you that it's not only not working but it was keeping me in victim mode convincing me that if I woke up one day and felt like crap it's because 'something had come up for healing' and this 'something' was related to my utterly crap upbringing I now know that I woke up and felt like crap because somewhere along the line I decided to feel like crap I have choices and could have chosen something else.

Love

Rebecca x

Hi Daz
What makes you think that a God has to be wise, intelligent or all powerful?

Hi paul .

I think paul that we would firstly have to agree as to If my understanding of that what we are can be related to God In some shape or form . I would say many relate to God and the self being the same and perhaps many do not . lol .

When an Individual connects with all that Is, be It the everything and the nothing or whatever one’s Individual awareness of one’s self limitations are no more . One’s potential Is evident . The creative energy that Is forever present Is realized and yet not understood . There Is no sense to what Is . Sense will come about from an Intellectual perspective .

I remember being aware of an energy that was much like a think tank . There was just an awareness that I (although I wasn’t present) could access anything have an answer for any question and create or do as my Individual will desired .

What happened though was that I didn’t ask any questions I did not choose to channel the energy Into any particular area or field I did not ask for strength or for world peace . I sat In awe and gratitude for connecting with what we are‘s true potential .

If what we are Is God then that Is why I can say wholeheartedly that God, Is wise, Intelligent and all powerful . I could go on and perhaps list another 100 words ....for what words exist that do not describe all that Is?

daz .

Nice, how can they reconnect to something that they were never disconnected from only by the illusory perceptions you keep mentioning?

I have to say Nice, you seem to be typing a soliloquy and not giving Paul any credit for Knowing any of this stuff - have you read his website?

On the contrary W.S. I listen to all replies and I regard all replies as being equally valid In respect to each Individuals perspective .

If you were to read a previous post I made I did suggest that an answer for someone who has seemingly lost themselves can be looking for something that Is not lost . In other words we are trying to reconnect with a connection that Is already there .

How many Individuals do you know W.S. that are an expression of what they are at the core . How many people do you know or do you feel that are feeling connected to the oneness? And yet they are connected and they are the oneness .

In reference to paul I have understood much of his thoughts and I have expressed as much . I am asking paul questions just as you are and everybody else .

I am sure paul will let me know If my questions are bothering him .

daz .

Yes. We are all ultimately responsible for our own thought patterns and beliefs, nobody can force anyone to think in a certain way or believe anything which they do not choose to embrace, the buck stops with self.

If you (Paul Crick) have "healed within consciousness" (side question: am I right in understanding you have entered their consciousness to perform the healing) a thought pattern or beleif of a client who came to you to assistant them with their suffering... then wouldn't you be partly 'responsible' for the consequential thought patterns and beleifs of that client? You have facilitated their motion, set them in motion.

Btw Paul, would you mind defining the term "self serving" for me, as you see it.

Thanks

On the contrary W.S. I listen to all replies and I regard all replies as being equally valid In respect to each Individuals perspective.

That's very gracious of you.

How many Individuals do you know W.S. that are an expression of what they are at the core .

All of them.

If you (Paul Crick) have "healed within consciousness" (side question: am I right in understanding you have entered their consciousness to perform the healing) a thought pattern or beleif of a client who came to you to assistant them with their suffering... then wouldn't you be partly 'responsible' for the consequential thought patterns and beleifs of that client? You have facilitated their motion, set them in motion.

I'm sure Paul will answer for himself, but if I may pre-empt his reply, I believe the answer is that the healing is by BEing at One with the conciousness which is the same consiousness as Paul, the client and everyone.

In a sense, yes, you could say that being at one with the client in consciousness and then thinking your own thoughts would have an effect (let's face it we already talk about the power of thoughts outside this context); however I think Paul (and others) would say that the healing comes through the consciousness and not through putting one's own beliefs about what 'should' be done into the process. Any thoughts about what should be done should not come from the practitioner, but should come through from the client. I guess we're getting into the realms of intuition and being free of the control of the 'individual' (excuse that expression, but I can't come up with a better one) mind.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

.... and not through putting one's own beliefs about what 'should' be done into the process...

Giles, I didn't for a split second think or beleive that Paul was imposing his own beleifs onto the client. Did you see that in something that I wrote?

Hi Chris

You appear to be still reading things which I have not put up, so just to avoid future misunderstandings on this subject, I will clarify my understanding of symptoms and the underlying cause of the symptoms.

Symptoms:
[INDENT]Symptoms to my understanding are an outward manifestation to alert us to an underlying inner conflict within self, symptoms are being created right now in real time by self in direct response to our consciousness.
[/INDENT]Underlying Cause:
[INDENT]In our experience, the underlying cause of the manifestations of symptoms, are also to be found within our consciousness, they are inner conflicts or disharmony created by self within our aspects of consciousness which are manifesting as unrest and disease within our reality in real time.
[/INDENT]As we deal primarily with the underlying causes which are inner conflicts within self, we would not treat sadness as that is, as you say, a manifestation of the underlying cause, which is self, so we would heal and transform the consciousness which is creating it.

Because we understand and heal within consciousness, this allows us to quickly and painlessly apply our transformational healing solution, which creates a lasting transformational change within the core essence of the being, this can normally be completed within a day. If we were to work with symptoms, then we could not offer a transformational healing solution, we would probably be trying to heal someone for the rest of their lives.

I hope that qualifies our position for you.

Hi WildStrawberry

If you (Paul Crick) have "healed within consciousness" (side question: am I right in understanding you have entered their consciousness to perform the healing) a thought pattern or beleif of a client who came to you to assistant them with their suffering... then wouldn't you be partly 'responsible' for the consequential thought patterns and beleifs of that client? You have facilitated their motion, set them in motion.

As Giles says, we are not talking about brain washing, so they have to agree with whatever transformational work is utilised in a manner which they can understand and embrace.

Transformational healing work is applied to self within the oneness, what they embrace is a reflection of the transformation which is happening within the oneness of the healer, it is still subject to personal choice, we can't force them to be healed and become whole if they choose not to.

So no, since we are not controlling their thoughts, we are not in any way responsible for their own thought patterns and beliefs. 🙂

Btw Paul, would you mind defining the term "self serving" for me, as you see it.

As each person is different with individual requirements, then what one person perceives as self serving, the next person would disagree with, but to my understanding something which is self serving, helps a person to maintain their reality in a positive and meaningful way, to be truly self serving, it needs to be in accordance with their true authentic self and also needs to be something which they are prepared to take personal responsibility for.

Giles, I didn't for a split second think or beleive that Paul was imposing his own beleifs onto the client. Did you see that in something that I wrote?

Not at all, I was just expanding on my answer. 🙂 :hug:

Hi Daz,
You said "On one level a golden rule that Is to treat others as you want to be treated Is still being overlooked across the globe . If every Individual made decisions with this golden rule In mind then the world would change over night . The knock on effect would be tremendous .
Why would anyone at a root level want to bring harm to another . The answer to that Is the root cause of sufferings . Perhaps If I was to mention that every Individual that brings about sufferings to another will have a lack of awareness of self and a lack of self love In expression."

I agree that there would be a big change - and I have come to agree that we should not cause harm, so let me ask you a question.....if you don't like it ignore it...

If someone manifests something for themselves and it is at the expense of another person does that show a lack of awareness of self - in other words if we choose to manifest a happiness and abundance, and for certain it means that someone somewhere will lose out, then what is the meaning of that.

Another.

If we make the choice, and decide what is good for another, and make it happen, what does that say?


Hi Paul,
Circumstances are not always, perhaps not even usually "a symptom of the underlying cause which is self.", take for instance someone in a long term famine belt in Africa, the only choice they may have is to move, the land will not support them, but they were born there, how then is self the underlying cause?

Now saying " do not understand the process, we always apply healing in a meaningful manner, so that it is meaningful to the person receiving it, so they can embrace it in a positive manner and make whatever use of it they want to. " does nothing to explain why it is meaningful, it just obfuscates.
As for saying that you can identify the real issue because you are dealing with "what is being created within them right now" returns only to the suffering, not the cause, once again an example of treating the symptoms only.- temporary relief, nothing more.

Oh yes "Have you not developed intuition and empathy yet? they are a part of a healers tool kit!" - of course, I use it extensively, but that does not mean that I use it just to heal the symptoms, people are much deeper than that - I use it to find the causes and get the person to deal with them.

If you just heal the symptoms then I agree "there is nothing to forgive". There is if lasting healing is managed though.

Yes Daz, you have seen the smoke and mirrors with your comment that "Does an Individual that believes / perceives that they are God automatically become wise and all powerful".

Will catch up with the rest later.

love
chris

Hi Chris

Circumstances are not always, perhaps not even usually "a symptom of the underlying cause which is self.", take for instance someone in a long term famine belt in Africa, the only choice they may have is to move, the land will not support them, but they were born there, how then is self the underlying cause?

How do you know that the land will not support them, there is water available but it is either underground and needs to be extracted or it can be supplied from the sea after processing.

Moving is an obvious choice, but then they have chosen to be born in that environment so that they can experience what it is like to live within what that environment offers them, do they not also have one of the most inhospitable deserts close by which people also choose to live in and manage to exist even though it rarely rains?

Now saying " It only sounds like an illusion because you do not understand the process, we always apply healing in a meaningful manner, so that it is meaningful to the person receiving it, so they can embrace it in a positive manner and make whatever use of it they want to. " does nothing to explain why it is meaningful, it just obfuscates.

For transformational healing to be meaningful to the people who are receiving it, it needs to be capable of not only transforming their way of being, but it also has to give them informed answers which will enable them to understand how they have inadvertently got themselves in their current situation, as well as a solution to empower them to implement positive changes right now and in the future, should they choose to utilise it.

The idea is not to make someone dependent upon the healer so that they need to keep coming back year after year, but to heal and empower them straight away, so that they become their own healer and guide.

As for saying that you can identify the real issue because you are dealing with "what is being created within them right now" returns only to the suffering, not the cause, once again an example of treating the symptoms only.- temporary relief, nothing more.

I see that you still do not understand the difference between a symptom and the cause, the cause is not the suffering or the physical manifestations which they are creating around them such as their circumstances, but themselves.

Now you have said that you introduce people to the concepts and get them to treat their past lives, past issues and get them to work to improve their circumstances because you class these as the underlying causes, you also say that it is good for people to suffer as they will learn something from that experience, by using your understanding, you say that it takes them many years to achieve a lasting change within themselves so that they become completely healed.

Healers who deal with the person as the underlying cause, can achieve this for them in a few hours.

Oh yes "Have you not developed intuition and empathy yet? they are a part of a healers tool kit!" - of course, I use it extensively, but that does not mean that I use it just to heal the symptoms, people are much deeper than that - I use it to find the causes and get the person to deal with them.

Exactly, you get the person to heal themselves after they have suffered what you consider to be long enough to learn their lessons! have you considered that it would be more compassionate to refer them to a healer who can actually heal them?

If you just heal the symptoms then I agree "there is nothing to forgive". There is if lasting healing is managed though.

People who think they need forgiveness, require healing. It is a symptom of being judgemental.

Hi Daz,

I agree that there would be a big change - and I have come to agree that we should not cause harm, so let me ask you a question.....if you don't like it ignore it...

Hi Chris .

There was a stage In my life chris where I became quite empathic regarding my healing work . It was whilst I was getting to know myself . I had triggered off an energy through certain experiences had and I felt an urge to heal the world and everybody In It . Perhaps other healers on this site can relate . The burden became heavy on my shoulders I even became aware that I was of a soul group that whilst my body rested at night my spirit was transforming the energies around war torn countries . I remember an O.B.E where I was standing my a mass grave at the time of the Kosovo War and seeing hands sticking out from beneath the ground and the emotion was unbearable .

So when you say Ignore It - It can be easier said than done If you get me . I have though over the past few years concentrated more on myself although as a healer, a healers work Is never done Is It lol There Is always someone on the horizon that enters your life that Is In need of your light . I began to understand that at times not helping another can be the best way of helping them . I have understood that not attaching to the emotions felt within my empathic episodes works, whilst still feeling and allowing the energies to flow . In other words I’ve started not to take the sorrows on board . I used to soak up other peoples negativity . I think It was only my own light work and daily meditations that allowed me to regenerate each day .

If someone manifests something for themselves and it is at the expense of another person does that show a lack of awareness of self - in other words if we choose to manifest a happiness and abundance, and for certain it means that someone somewhere will lose out, then what is the meaning of that.

What’s happening here chris Is that when an Individual Is In expression of the self there will be no manifestations for that self that will bring harm or will there be any repercussions or expense had to another .

If someone Is In expression of happiness and abundance as you mention then another will have to allow that same energies to flow within themselves, It would not be at fault of the Individual that has already allowed what was already within come to the fore . When you mentioned another will be losing out sometimes losing Is winning . Sometimes sufferings are blessings .

Only love manifests and only love Is expressed, It Is a cycle, a continuous cycle of love .

Whilst an Individual Is not In expression of the self there Is a tit for tat karmic game of ping pong happening until there Isn’t . It takes two to tango . If one decides not to dance to the same tune anymore the link Is broken . The fog has to lift before one stops playing ping pong . When the fog lifts the self comes to the fore because the Individual can only realize the self under certain conditions . Out of purity comes clarity . The Individuals needs to be pure of Intention and free within mind .

Another.

If we make the choice, and decide what is good for another, and make it happen, what does that say?

I would say that an Individual under those circumstances would need to be In connection with that others soul In order to know what Is or Isn’t good for them . On a more basic level If a parent decides to take a kitchen knife out of the hands of their 2yr old child, they kinda know that taking It off them Is a decision that they have literally taken out of the childs hand (excuse the pun) because they know whats best for that child .

dazzle .

Hi Paul,
Thanks for the clarification - I think I understand the symptom bit, however you see the symptoms as being only in the now (and if they are chronic then they have a history and will have created issues of their own), and you see them as (always? Not sure) being only due to an inner conflict of some kind. So although you say they are being created now, and they are, they too have a history.

The causes are more complex, firstly you see them manifesting as disease or unrest, well what is the difference between disease and unrest manifesting in real time and symptoms? Are these the same?
Next you say that you deal with the underlying cause, however that is the cause, in real time, that is currently causing the symptoms. This assumes that treating the underlying cause, now and in real time, deals with the history of the effects that the original issue has had, and the original issue is also in some way healed, for simply dealing with the now is ok, so long as one only stays within the now. The moment one does not the original case will re-exert its effects again. So this is like a trap, in order to remain symptom free one has to stay in the confines of the now.
That is why this is only temporary. If it was a permanent solution then being in 'the now' or not would not matter. In permanent healing the client does the healing and there is no relapse, it is permanent, no matter what - and the symptoms will not recur - not ever.
So the effects that you see, of painless and quick, all done within a day, are just what they seem, fixed for the moment, and fixed as long as one never leaves the now. You say that the clients have a choice about this, whether they choose to do the now thing and stay healed, but it is not a real choice, for they are trapped. You lay a level of control over their future (nows) by this, and then have the get out of blaming them if they stray (or don't take personal responsibility for in your words).
This is not self-serving, it is short term gain (and I think it is genuine gain) balanced against long term constraint, it is not positive it is based on denial, it is constrictive - it does not seem to me to be in the best long-term interests of the client - but perhaps given the previous discussions the future is of little consequence.

now I'll try to catch up again....

love
chris

As Giles says, we are not talking about brain washing, ...

I know Paul, as I said to Giles I didn't for a second beleive that is what you were doing.

Transformational healing work is applied to self within the oneness, what they embrace is a reflection of the transformation which is happening within the oneness of the healer, it is still subject to personal choice, we can't force them to be healed and become whole if they choose not to.

Paul you seem to be dealing with transforming core thought patterns and beleifs in order to heal the root cause of suffering, yes? This is your method as I see it, tell me if I've misunderstood.

I'm sure we all understand that Being in a state of Enlightenment ends all suffering ~ there are no more illusory perception, no "mistaken" (illusory) thought patterns and beleifs to cause suffering:

As each person is different with individual requirements, then what one person perceives as self serving, the next person would disagree with, but to my understanding something which is self serving, helps a person to maintain their reality in a positive and meaningful way, to be truly self serving, it needs to be in accordance with their true authentic self and also needs to be something which they are prepared to take personal responsibility for.

Paul, your method seems to be the removal of your client's broken spectacles (illusory thought patterns and beleifs causing suffering) & giving them a nice new "self serving" pair - still perceiving illusory thought patterns and beleifs through the lenses ~ just a different set of ones that will sooner or later cause suffering.

Not at all, I was just expanding on my answer. 🙂 :hug:

Giles. I was posing a question asking what you may have benn projecting onto a post/posts of mine ~ I wasn't upset.

Hi Paul,
Thanks for the clarification - I think I understand the symptom bit, however you see the symptoms as being only in the now (and if they are chronic then they have a history and will have created issues of their own), and you see them as (always? Not sure) being only due to an inner conflict of some kind. So although you say they are being created now, and they are, they too have a history.

Chris,

I think you are misunderstanding symptoms from Pauls understanding (I'm sure Paul can speak for himself, but I will put the following in my own words of understanding if it helps to clarify)...

You are perceiving Pauls understanding of symptoms as a chain of things... Let's say "A" is the symptom we get as an event happens, then after a time this has manifested in the mind as symptom "B", and further along as "C", then "D" etc... and currently our symptoms are changed in such a way as to manifest as "E"...

A -> B -> C -> D -> E

Now you are saying that healing in the Now will only deal with symptoms "E"...

A -> B -> C -> D

Leaving the rest of things from the past still there.

I think this is a wrong perception. If you consider the same symptoms changing over time, then "A" changes to become "B", but "B" still contains the elements of "A"...

A
-> B(A)

... but A by itself no longer exists as it is incorporated into B

likewise, "B" becomes "C"...

B(A)
-> C(B(A))

... which incorporates B which itself incorporates A

and likewise to the present...

C(B(A))
-> D(C(B(A)))
-> E(D(C(B(A))))

So now there is just "E" which incorporates all of A (the root symptom) and the corruptions along the way.
"E" is the only thing that exists in the present moment, and by healing "E" all of the suffering is removed in one go. There is no residue, nothing left to heal, no re-occurence of symptoms later on, just the memory of the event itself that happened which cannot be removed, but which no longer has any effect in the present moment.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

Hi Chris

When you can explain to me how I can travel back in time and address things when they were actually happening in the past whilst it had the potential of exerting a direct influence upon them in the now, then I will be happy to travel back to a past event and help to sort it out.

Mind you that would potentially change everything which has happened to them since that time, so perhaps that is not such a good idea. 🙂

There is only the now, everything which is happening, is happening right now in real time, it is because you do not understand the now, that you are constantly referring to things which no longer exist right now.

We can only deal with what is happening right now in real time, what happens in the future will be determined in the future when that becomes the now, if someone chooses one way or another way of being in the future, then that is a personal choice and nothing to do with anyone else but themselves.

When you understand the now, you will understand that it is not actually temporary, it is constant, we do not temporarily heal people one moment and the next moment they become unhealed, we heal them right now which moves forward within their reality within the now.

You lay a level of control over their future (nows) by this, and then have the get out of blaming them if they stray (or don't take personal responsibility for in your words).

No that is completely wrong, I respect people's freedom to choose to do with their lives whatever they choose to do, my job is to heal people, not to try and control their future or tell them what they should and should not do with their lives.

If their future choices do not serve them in a positive and self serving way and they choose to create more inner conflicts, then that is a personal choice. We would be happy to see them again and heal the new inner conflicts non-judgmentally. Judgement, blame and condemnation create inner conflicts that require healing, so they have no place within healing.

Hi WildStrawberry

Paul you seem to be dealing with transforming core thought patterns and beleifs in order to heal the root cause of suffering, yes? This is your method as I see it, tell me if I've misunderstood.

I'm sure we all understand that Being in a state of Enlightenment ends all suffering ~ there are no more illusory perception, no "mistaken" (illusory) thought patterns and beleifs to cause suffering:

It is the conflict between the aspects of consciousness (self) which is the inner conflict or core issue which needs healing, so yes we deal with the underlying cause which is creating or manifesting the symptoms which people are focused upon.

We do not deal in enlightenments, we prefer to deal with everyday reality which is what people have to live with.

Paul, your method seems to be the removal of your client's broken spectacles (illusory thought patterns and beleifs causing suffering) & giving them a nice new "self serving" pair - still perceiving illusory thought patterns and beleifs through the lenses ~ just a different set of ones that will sooner or later cause suffering.

Using your analogy, I would say that people are seeing through self deceptive glasses, we replace them with glasses that can clearly see reality and back that up with an understanding of being real within the now and taking responsibility for their chosen thought patterns and beliefs which are going to create their future.

Hi Paul,
Long term famine areas are well defined, yes there is water underground, and anything is possible, but it is not in the remit of the people there to alter the area while they suffer from war and famine. In terms of saying that they are suffering the situation they are in because they chose to, is that not true of everyone who suffers? Some do have the things needed to change though, others not, but if they are suffering is that not what they chose, so what are you doing changing that?

I agree that we should not make people dependent on the healer, but they should also not be dependent on the modality or process. If we lock them into things we do we create more problems that we solve. And yes - I've clearly understood the difference between causes and symptoms, not the least of which is that a healed symptom can recur while a cause will not.

I don't advocate that people take years over healing, though I accept that they may need years, it depends on them, but I do not suggest that they hang on to suffering, when they are ready they will heal the cause and suffering will go. For some it may be quick, others not so, I give them the time and space that treats them as respected clients, I do not hurry them or try to force them into what I think they should do just because I see my time as more precious or important than theirs. I decide nothing for them, not how long to suffer or how quick they should be, they are able to decide themselves, and I respect their decision. The key word here is respect - it works alongside love and compassion, something I see as essential, but something your process have no place for. Oh - and I don't charge so there can be no issues about that.

It is not people who need forgiveness, it is the issue. This achieves permanent healing, instead of temporary healing that only locks them into a modality that they dare not leave - and the locking in process is actually more compelling for the practitioners, for if the control of the mind to stop corrupt behaviour must be part of their continued existence or else all is lost and suffering recurs. It feels like the door to trap of the Now is firmly closed and that 'healing' in the now looks like a life sentence of internment compared to allowing the client some time to heal at their own rate.


Hi Daz,
Nice posting btw.
A lot of people go through a sort of healing expansion that does bring the kind of feelings that you describe. When it includes past lives it usually means that you were a healer in the past, this does not leave you. I have asked on this forum before why people do healing? Actually all I get is shallow replies as if no one has considered it in depth (I think they have), and I think it is your kind of experience that allows deeper consideration and investigation. I think it sounds as if you are a very connected healer, a rare thing as it were.

In terms of not helping another in order to help them, this is one of the insights that many find impossible to conceive. They see only the need to apply healing, nothing of the respect for the person or their journey, they assume the right to interfere, and to decide for others. It is an insight based on love and compassion that comes with experience, sometimes many lives of experience, it is the sign I think of a mature healer. It is not a case of deciding what is bad for them, or judging them, it is not about deciding not to give money to an addict, for that is judgemental, it is about giving them the choice, it is about acceptance and so it is about love and compassion.

The craft know to be careful about what you wish for or manifest. Again it is a sign of maturity when one realises the consequences of making changes in either one owns life circumstances or another's by the use of energy systems. The balance that will always be in play means that the 'ebb and flow' as you describe it will happen whatever we wish for. Now here I disagree with you a bit for I think that there are times when we manifest what we want, and others pay the price of the balance, but I do not think that they have always chosen to - sometimes they are the 'innocent wounded' - just a view. Love is the great guide, for love and compassion allow us to think of others.

I think that the balance you describe as the karmic game goes on all the time. The universe insists upon balance, and it will happen whatever we do, it cannot be avoided.

Deciding what is best for another is something we do all the time, we use it at a local level (as your example of child/knife), and at a national level by way of government. It is a controlling measure, it takes power from an individual and passes it to another. The point about your example is that we believe the child does not realise the danger, we would not do it to an adult. If we try it with an adult they would be insulted, because it would treat them with a lack of respect. So it is in healing too, if we want to control, we decide what people need, if we want to treat them with respect they must decide themselves. It becomes more complicated though, for in deciding we have the right to decide, and so to take control, we demean ourselves, we treat ourselves with a lack of respect, we lose the love for others we have, and so we lose the love for ourselves - it is a lose-lose situation, and then the only way out is to deny love, and become 'heartless' and functional, and this is often what we see, the ends we hear justifies the means.

I'll catch up on later posts later.
love

chris

Hi Chris

In terms of saying that they are suffering the situation they are in because they chose to, is that not true of everyone who suffers? Some do have the things needed to change though, others not, but if they are suffering is that not what they chose, so what are you doing changing that?

It is up to each individual to make their own choices which form their reality, that is what free will is all about, I do not interfere with peoples freedom to choose whatever they want to do.

My job as a healer is to heal them from whatever they have created within them, which is stopping them from making choices and to understand that they can now make whatever choice they want to, but at the same time understanding that with choices comes responsibilities and to evaluate if they are prepared to pay the price of exercising that choice or not, the choice has to be theirs and has nothing to do with us.

I agree that we should not make people dependent on the healer, but they should also not be dependent on the modality or process. If we lock them into things we do we create more problems that we solve.

I agree we are in the profession of setting people free, when they are healed they should be completely reliant upon self and nothing else, this is what healing and personal development is all about.

And yes - I've clearly understood the difference between causes and symptoms, not the least of which is that a healed symptom can recur while a cause will not.

This is not accurate, the only way we could stop something from recurring for someone else would be to exercise ongoing control over someones free will, they are free to choose what they want to do for themselves, if they choose to once more become trapped within their own consciousness, then that is a personal choice which they are free to make and we have no control over.

I do not hurry them or try to force them into what I think they should do just because I see my time as more precious or important than theirs. I decide nothing for them, not how long to suffer or how quick they should be, they are able to decide themselves, and I respect their decision. The key word here is respect - it works alongside love and compassion, something I see as essential, but something your process have no place for. Oh - and I don't charge so there can be no issues about that.

Actually that is also inaccurate, they come to you with a lot of problems which they are struggling with right now, to which you dig their hole a little deeper and throw in judgements and self condemnation, karma and past lives and past issues as an extra burden, so they not only have to sort out themselves of what is happening right now, they also have to try and sort out things which no longer exist! But this is done because you love and respect them so that is all right!

It is not people who need forgiveness, it is the issue.

We are supposed to be healing people not creating more disease within them by making them more judgemental. I see you still have you not grasped that it is not what people have done to us in the past and no longer exists out side of our consciousness which needs healing, it is what we do to our self following the event which needs healing, healing is always about self.

It feels like the door to trap of the Now is firmly closed and that 'healing' in the now looks like a life sentence of internment compared to allowing the client some time to heal at their own rate.

It is not a trap, it is freedom to live life and experience life to the full within the Now, they will heal at their own rate within the reality of this existence which functions within the Now, locking someone in the past is not healing them, locking someone in the future is not healing them, setting them free within the Now is.

Hi Daz,
Nice posting btw.
A lot of people go through a sort of healing expansion that does bring the kind of feelings that you describe. When it includes past lives it usually means that you were a healer in the past, this does not leave you. I have asked on this forum before why people do healing? Actually all I get is shallow replies as if no one has considered it in depth (I think they have), and I think it is your kind of experience that allows deeper consideration and investigation. I think it sounds as if you are a very connected healer, a rare thing as it were.

Thanks for your kind words chris .

Yes you are right many past lives was I practicing healing on some level .

Why do people do healing you asked . I would say that an Individual would have to know themselves at a deep level to answer that . I think as time goes by a healer that Is asked that question will give a slightly different answer as to why they do from one year / decade to the next . In a way as one of my threads suggest Life Is all about you and yet being a healer and being selfish do not go hand In hand ha aha - but as we know life being all about you Is not about being selfish - It’s more about being self-less .
With that essence In mind I would say that healing another Is also partly healing the healer as In every blessing that Is projected to another returns twofold . I mentioned at one point that I wanted to heal the world and everybody In It but what became apparent was that my focus became more self orientated . All healers will have to heal themselves at one stage . It’s another trigger being a healer that leads to self enquiry . You cannot observe the sufferings of another without having reflection and contemplation In respect to one’s own sufferings . A healer needs to be beyond the need of help themselves In order to help another In one respect .

In terms of not helping another in order to help them, this is one of the insights that many find impossible to conceive. They see only the need to apply healing, nothing of the respect for the person or their journey, they assume the right to interfere, and to decide for others. It is an insight based on love and compassion that comes with experience, sometimes many lives of experience, it is the sign I think of a mature healer. It is not a case of deciding what is bad for them, or judging them, it is not about deciding not to give money to an addict, for that is judgemental, it is about giving them the choice, it is about acceptance and so it is about love and compassion.

I liked what you said here chris . There’s so many different Individual Issues that can be In motion regarding when a patient sees a healer . Some Issues are beginning to show signs of blooming whilst others Issues are seemingly burning themselves out . So this perhaps Is one way of understanding how two Individuals that have similar illnesses recover differently be It the same healer giving the healing . So It has a lot to do with where the patient Is at within themselves .

One patient can perhaps have held on to anger and resentment for over 20 years bringing on a stomach complaint and another with a similar complaint has now started to work on such Issues would still show signs of the same stomach complaints but the Inner healing work has already begun .

It’s easier to clear a blocked sink If what’s blocking the sink has begun to degrade already .

The craft know to be careful about what you wish for or manifest. Again it is a sign of maturity when one realises the consequences of making changes in either one owns life circumstances or another's by the use of energy systems. The balance that will always be in play means that the 'ebb and flow' as you describe it will happen whatever we wish for. Now here I disagree with you a bit for I think that there are times when we manifest what we want, and others pay the price of the balance, but I do not think that they have always chosen to - sometimes they are the 'innocent wounded' - just a view. Love is the great guide, for love and compassion allow us to think of others.

My prior reference chris was made for a self realized Individual . The self realized have very few needs or wishes for there Is contentment for just being what they are . Everything Is present . What could one need other than food clothing and shelter .

In reference to someone who does not know themselves can wish for an array of things and manifest what they feel Is what they need and yet they do not need whatever that may be . On some level the Individual will not realize that manifesting “wants” Instead of needs will not bring about Inner happiness or joy . I think there Is a process that happens where we can for example experience a life full of religion In order to know that religion Is not what they need . They are trying to fill the discontented hole that they feel within with various love substitutes .

Deciding what is best for another is something we do all the time, we use it at a local level (as your example of child/knife), and at a national level by way of government. It is a controlling measure, it takes power from an individual and passes it to another. The point about your example is that we believe the child does not realise the danger, we would not do it to an adult. If we try it with an adult they would be insulted, because it would treat them with a lack of respect. So it is in healing too, if we want to control, we decide what people need, if we want to treat them with respect they must decide themselves. It becomes more complicated though, for in deciding we have the right to decide, and so to take control, we demean ourselves, we treat ourselves with a lack of respect, we lose the love for others we have, and so we lose the love for ourselves - it is a lose-lose situation, and then the only way out is to deny love, and become 'heartless' and functional, and this is often what we see, the ends we hear justifies the means.

Yes I understand your thoughts regarding control and the effect that It can have on others .

dazzle .

Root cause

Hi Giles,
Thanks for the example - it is an interesting analogy. You see because you deal with the now, when you do the healing all that will happen is that the part that is in the now, the symptoms that are in the now (This is 'E'), will be healed and removed.
So you end point of E(D(C(B(A)))) will become D(C(B(A))), these are not in the now so will not be dealt with, the root cause remains unaffected, cocooned within layers of events and symptoms that have been left untouched.
The fact that the E has been removed will provide relief, and as I see it while the person remains in the now, then D(C(B(A))) will not be affecting them, the boundaries of the now exclude them. But the person is then faced with the choice of never leaving the now, or facing the symptoms and effects that they have been living without for some time - imprisonment or suffering.

An enlightening example.

Hi Paul,
I think Giles has provided the answers - no need to travel in time - and I think I have grasped the nature of now. Instead of locking away all the issues that accumulate and only dealing with the one on the surface I prefer to allow the client to deal with them all, and so effect healing of them all, this is then permanent and the client is free of them, no imprisonment or further threat of suffering.

"If their future choices do not serve them in a positive and self serving way and they choose to create more inner conflicts, then that is a personal choice. We would be happy to see them again and heal the new inner conflicts" - I see, if they leave the now, then it is their fault, and they will then have to return to you for further work. A captive audience in more ways than one I guess.
love
chris

Hi Paul,

We do not deal in enlightenments, we prefer to deal with everyday reality which is what people have to live with.

Paul, isn't that 'everyday' reality simply a divine/higher (urgh words, I hope you know what I mean) still being viewed through limiting or "mistaken" thought patterns and core beleifs?

I wonder if the misunderstanding going on between Yourself (& Giles (don't want to drag you in on this Giles if I've misperceived matters)) & cactuschris is simply a natural difference in the Male and Female perspective:

I can see why as a Male you take everything on board as you/only you/youself being soley responsible for your own life and the life/reality you choose to create for yourself and family - "Getting the Job done" - is what can seem like an attractive prospect when it comes to the healing of suffering. And you have helped BeckyBoop, who has been singing your praises.

It seems to me (maybe I'm wrong) that what you are referring to as Self is what I would see/call as Ego (ego can be seen as a dirty word in some spiritual/self development setting - but I don't mean it that way) & that what myself, Nice & cactuschris (from a female perspective) would perceive Self to be is that part of us relating to God (Love/Source/Universe ~whatever).

And so I think this the misunderstanding is occuring : the Male aspect want to solve the problems ASAP/ get the job done swiftly and efficiently ~ admirable, persuasive and necessary. The Female aspect wants to nuture (a bit of a cheesy overused word~ but I'm kind of running out of time here) the 'Issues/Suffering' allow the pace to be dictated by the client (as cactuschris is advocating), making sure that every tiny bit of gravel is removed from the scratched Knee before the dressing is applied.

Root cause

Hi Giles,
Thanks for the example - it is an interesting analogy. You see because you deal with the now, when you do the healing all that will happen is that the part that is in the now, the symptoms that are in the now (This is 'E'), will be healed and removed.
So you end point of E(D(C(B(A)))) will become D(C(B(A))), these are not in the now so will not be dealt with, the root cause remains unaffected, cocooned within layers of events and symptoms that have been left untouched.

No Chris, you've completely turned the analogy on it's head.
In the example of E(D(C(B(A))))) you cannot just remove E as the rest are fully embodied with it. E is D(C(B(A)))) with some extra corruption. Your idea of removing E leaving the rest, is the first part of the analogy where they are just chained together and we only remove the last link of the chain, but that is not how the issues represent themselves in the Now, they are not chained together, but they are a cumulative mass of the original issue and it's corruptions over time. Removing E in the present moment will, by it's very nature remove ALL of the issue. You cannot simply say removing E will leave the rest when the analogy itself is to show that's not the case; otherwise you are just creating your own analogy for your own purposes and completely ignoring what was put to you.

The fact that the E has been removed will provide relief, and as I see it while the person remains in the now, then D(C(B(A))) will not be affecting them, the boundaries of the now exclude them. But the person is then faced with the choice of never leaving the now, or facing the symptoms and effects that they have been living without for some time - imprisonment or suffering.

As you say... this is how you "see it". It's not how it really works in the Now, or how treating the issues will be, as demonstrated in the latter part of the analogy. It seems you just keep failing to see how an issue in the Now is not a seperate part that is healed by itself, but is a culmination of everything from the past, so healing what is there Now will remove it all. It's really is as simple as that.

An enlightening example.

You appear to work in a formulaeic manner, so I thought such an example would be better than words. One tries one's best to communicate clearly. 😀

Hi Paul,
I think Giles has provided the answers - no need to travel in time - and I think I have grasped the nature of now. Instead of locking away all the issues that accumulate and only dealing with the one on the surface I prefer to allow the client to deal with them all, and so effect healing of them all, this is then permanent and the client is free of them, no imprisonment or further threat of suffering.

I fail to see where you have got this idea that working in the Now is somehow associated with only treating a singular element of an issue and not treating all of it. Paul and myself have both indicated that this is not that case, yet you seem to continue searching for that and twisting (for want of a better word) what we say to make it fit your (mis)understanding. Healing in the Now heals All the issue, not just a part of it.

"If their future choices do not serve them in a positive and self serving way and they choose to create more inner conflicts, then that is a personal choice. We would be happy to see them again and heal the new inner conflicts" - I see, if they leave the now, then it is their fault, and they will then have to return to you for further work. A captive audience in more ways than one I guess.

That's not what Paul is saying. You are wrong to twist it around like that.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

Paul, isn't that 'everyday' reality simply a divine/higher (urgh words, I hope you know what I mean) still being viewed through limiting or "mistaken" thought patterns and core beleifs?

I would say yes, though the "mistaken thought patterns and beliefs" can be changed. The person can learn to recognise their True Self (that which is aware of the thoughts arising) and through being present and aware, not let such thoughts take control and influence their everyday reality in a fashion that would cause them suffering.

It seems that some believe this takes continual hard effort to achieve, but it's like riding a bike... at first it takes a lot of practice, but with time it becomes easier, until it becomes second nature and we can easily get back on the bike as and when we need, or even continually ride the bike without effort.

I wonder if the misunderstanding going on between Yourself (& Giles (don't want to drag you in on this Giles if I've misperceived matters)) & cactuschris is simply a natural difference in the Male and Female perspective:

I can see why as a Male you take everything on board as you/only you/youself being soley responsible for your own life and the life/reality you choose to create for yourself and family - "Getting the Job done" - is what can seem like an attractive prospect when it comes to the healing of suffering. And you have helped BeckyBoop, who has been singing your praises.

It seems to me (maybe I'm wrong) that what you are referring to as Self is what I would see/call as Ego (ego can be seen as a dirty word in some spiritual/self development setting - but I don't mean it that way) & that what myself, Nice & cactuschris (from a female perspective) would perceive Self to be is that part of us relating to God (Love/Source/Universe ~whatever).

I wouldn't say that is the case myself.
The Ego, as I see it, is what in Sanskrit they call Ahankara. Ahan (Aham when used as a word solely on it's own) relates to the True Self (the One consciousness or awareness or whatever you want to call it) and the Kara is anything in creation (so this could be physical, or anything created by the mind or perceptions etc.). When the True Self becomes attached to anything in creation then this creates Ahankara, which is the ego. Ego therefore relates to attachment.

The Self that is referred to is, aside from the labels suggested above, the unchanging observer. It is that part of us that can observe our physical being or surroundings changing, can observe our emotions come and go, can observe thoughts arise and the mind at work, but in itself, simple observes. Simply put, if you can observe something then that something is not the True Self, but is something it is are attached to. The True Self cannot be observed, but is known because of the fact it observes. As you can probably figure out, this is the awareness or one consciousness that we cannot observe.

And so I think this the misunderstanding is occuring : the Male aspect want to solve the problems ASAP/ get the job done swiftly and efficiently ~ admirable, persuasive and necessary. The Female aspect wants to nuture (a bit of a cheesy overused word~ but I'm kind of running out of time here) the 'Issues/Suffering' allow the pace to be dictated by the client (as cactuschris is advocating), making sure that every tiny bit of gravel is removed from the scratched Knee before the dressing is applied.

I really don't think it's male/female distinction. I know plenty of females who practice living in the Now. It is not us as males who are making a choice to get a job done quickly, that would be entirely up to the person who is seeking healing. However, if someone comes to you for assistance in removing their issue, then that is what is given. There's no point in us making a choice to drag out a persons healing, and even they are likely to prefer that their suffering goes as soon as possible (otherwise why would they have sought help?). The pace is still dictated by the client. They may have an issue that has several aspects to it, and for any given session they may choose to work on just some of those and then come back to work on the others later, or they may wish to be free of them all in one go, or maybe even work on some within the session and go away and work on the rest themselves. The choice is the clients, nobody has said otherwise or is exerting their own opinion of what is best for the client. Healing everything in the now, will not leave any more gravel in the knee than taking time to nurture and slowly pick out the gravel over time. I think that's a misunderstanding that's happening in these conversations.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

"If their future choices do not serve them in a positive and self serving way and they choose to create more inner conflicts, then that is a personal choice. We would be happy to see them again and heal the new inner conflicts" - I see, if they leave the now, then it is their fault, and they will then have to return to you for further work. A captive audience in more ways than one I guess.

Hi Chris,

I don't mean this unkindly but the penny has dropped for me around what appears to be going on here and that is the fact that one or two things you have said throughout this thread, including this tripe above leads me to the conclusion that you are not aware/well up on the topic of self empowerment either personally or professionally.

I feel the many comments you made about planning for the future are indicative or your lack of understanding about self empowerment and your comment above illustrates it even further, if somebody after Paul & Giles brand of healing later leaves The Now then of course it's the clients issue (although not necessarily a 'fault' IMO) who's else's is it?
You also appear not to be able to grasp what I meant in an earlier post when I said that some people are ready to have their issues/residual issues 'bulldozed' as quickly as humanly possible and again I feel this indicates your lack of understanding about how some people do know what is best for them and that not all people need to have every issue dissecting one by one over a long period of time in order to heal.
Apologies for repeating myself but as I said before I typify somebody for whom the aforementioned approach has not worked, there have been benefits many of them but on the whole dissecting of issues one by one has, largly only served to keep me in a powerless, victim mentality walking round with the belief that I have this left to 'look at' and that left to dissect and talk about endlessly in healing, counselling and supervision, but I now know the issues that were keeping me in that place are not existing except in my mind I have done all my crying for the crap life I've had, I've given myself compassion by the bucketload and finally realised that all we have is The Now and I have made the decision to stop allowing past events which I can't change to impact on my present reality because I have seen the utter pointlesness of doing this to me it's the same as picking the frying pan up and banjoing myself on the head with it it would beg the question; "why would I want to do that"?
I feel you would have a far better grasp of what Paul & Giles talk about if you had a better understanding of self empowerment and the issues around the concept of spirituality or the Mind, Body & Spirit connection, while humans are choosing independence over a relationship with all their sum parts there will always be conflict, perverts and poor souls starving in a droubt in Africa, we live in a global comminity which lives off fear where warlords and people like Mugabe decide that they want a Lear Jet over a water irregation system for his people, that is a choice and one made out of greed and fear, things such as greed and fear do not exist in the minds and hearts of our true beings, it's our true or real self which knows there is nothing to fear, nothing to plan for and plenty to go round but people are so out of touch with the real self because they are taught to give their power away to others from a young age, add mass, obsessive consumerism into the mix and you are left with people who are so far removed from any relationship with the divine/higher intelligence/God that they are bound to end up in a place where they think, because somebody told them it's a good idea that their issues have to be dealt with one by one over a long period of time.

Love

Rebecca x