So corporal is just the same as murder by kicking, stabbing or shooting?
So corporal is just the same as murder by kicking, stabbing or shooting?
I'm not even going to answer that and, in time honoured HP fashion, I am now withdrawing from this thread.
xx
I'm not even going to answer that and, in time honoured HP fashion, I am now withdrawing from this thread.
xx
Please don't (if you read this).
Corporal stuff can be misused. I wonder now about some males at my school getting off on it TBH, and in fact I know some did. So it wouldn't fit into today's society, I agree. But there does have to be more school discipline. That's a topic: What can the new disciplines be?
More to the general point, I just got a phone call from a close friend who is a long-time teacher, and I posed my points (above) to him. I think his responses are extremely interesting. There were two points as to causes of modern youth culture ( and I suppose modern culture in general):
1. In "our" day, say the 1970s, pupils and teens who were not going to do fantastically well at uni, and actually were not going to uni, still had a lot to aim for. There was a huge array of work possibilities that didn't involve academic training, but which could bring out the best in you. Even I spent a period working for Chrysler (motor cars) and the money was great, and then the GEC. Today it seems that if you don't have academic qualifications, you are stuck maybe on the minimum wage. I think this a real insight (thanks, Chris), as what else do youths then do? To find an identity, they join a gang. TBH I might have done the same. So the solution here is to create real, truly real, opportunities for youths to work and be successful - er, before age 18 which is the stupid latest government policy.
V
hi v we had corporal puinishment at my school when i was a child and those who got it deserved it these days we are too soft on everything in this country we are being taken for a ride we are the laughing stock of europe as we all know if we give impressionable children an inch they will take a mile it is human nature and that is why we shoould still have rules and bounderies
I'm having to use my old PC so posted the above before it all crashed. But the second point my friend, Chris, made, is that in the past (and in many nations this is still the case) we trusted those who ruled. We trusted politicians, and while we might have mocked the police we did trust them. Now it is all out in the open that politicians are - I'll put the asterisks in to save Mike's software - **** - so what role models do youths have to follow, if they know that even those who rule are corrupt, and you read about it every day in tabloids?
Thirdly, Chris mentioned one-parent families and the lack of male role figures. I'm not sure what I really think of that, but it was very brave of him and up-front to mention it, as his daughter and her children are cases in point.
But I actually think his first point in the post above is the most insightful. In the 1970s you kind of chose to "go" academic or to go into work. But even if you went into work, the pay was high, the unions were there, and you could really succeed. So if you are, say, 15-17 today, and not academic, what do you do? I think some youths turn into finding their identity in gangs and all that goes with that.
BTW, I hope you two guys will make up by PM.
V
Corporal stuff can be misused. I wonder now about some males at my school getting off on it TBH, and in fact I know some did. So it wouldn't fit into today's society, I agree.
Just to clarify, I didn't mean the boys! As it was an all-boys school, I now realise that one or two paeds had got in there - even the Headmaster - so a bit of spanking was right up their street. For that reason, corporal punishment can't be brought back. The b******* (saving Mike's software again, 🙂 ) even tried it on me (but I got away), just outside my house for heavens' sake.
So corporal punishment is out due to the paeds. IMHO. Therefore, what can the new school disciplines be, if it can't be corp, when what we presently have doesn't work, it seems?
V
Hi, I think this could also be interesting because from area to area the problems in the UK may differ
I'm just 'nipping in' to say that I think personally that half of what we 'see' in todays teens is a front, when my son had to go into hospital last year due to unknown stomach pains I stayed with him for the 2 or 3 nights he was in, the boy in the next bed was about 15, at night he sobbed & sobbed, I could here him & it was horrible, in the day when his 'mates' & family came to visit he was all front, being the big hard knock....you see, I wonder if kids are fed this image that they think they need to live up to, so much thats available to kids nowadays is wrong is so many ways and they look up to and respect a 'wrong' image
'Hope' has always been an issue with teens hasn't it? But I can see the piont about not having role models to respect or worth respecting. I'm not too sure if single parenting makes a difference, to be honest, from what I've seen where I live kids do have to fend for themselves & it's the same whether the have both parents or not, perhaps there can be an issue if parents break up when children are older
Education, perhaps some kids feel there's no piont in focasing on education when higher education is something that only kids from rich families are privillage to....with all the news about the cost of going to university ect.
In many families both parents work these days, hardly any families eat together any more, infact many families have their dinner on the sofa watching TV...what I mean is could it be a problem that good old fashioned family life style,is there a lack of 'nurture'??
xxxx
David,
I think your friend's remarks are quite telling regarding the loss of manufacturing job opportunities for working class youth, particularly young men.
When I left school in '73 there were plenty of factory jobs available and some payed fairly good wages. In fact there were some factories in Swindon that payed production workers far more than junior staff in professions such as accounting, teaching or nursing.
Many of these jobs are now gone and as you pointed out minimum wage jobs are never going to offer a stable future.
On the other hand we do have people coming here from Poland and other European countries to do low payed jobs while we are happy to dole out welfare payments to able bodied young Brits who won't touch them.
The fact that I agree with corporal punishment, yet do not use this in my home is not a contradiction at all. It means that if one of my children were punished in this way (as I was at School) I would not object because they probably did something to deserve it.
My Mother never used corporal punishment on me either but signed a consent form to have it used on me if it was deemed necessary.
With my children I used psychological techniques that are taught in the army, yes i am ex-military and yes I went to war in Kuwait so that the bleeding heard middle classes could screw up this country and I guess that they, like you, will just roll over and say that it is complicated and there are lots of issues to address and shut their doors and say well it's not bothering me it's someone elses problem.
All I am trying to say is don't rule it out and if everything else has been tried and been unsuccessful then lets try this and see if it works. How do you know it will not work? The answer is you don't but you are happy to sit in comfort and judgement on what is right.
I really don't appreciate the fact that people like you can make light of what soldiers are preparred to do because they are given orders and are told it is right. I did fight in a war for this country and I saw people killed and did some myself and this time round I lost a cousin to a road side bomb in Iraq are my family saying we should not be fighting this war.....NO we are morning a loss but proud he stood up to be counted for his country for something he believed was right..........
In your defense you seem to have gone off on a tangent that has little to do with my original post to this thread. You come over in your response to me as aggressive and rude.
You assume too much. You know nothing about me and so I dismiss your response as insignificant as it has no relevance.
Maybe the 'corporal punishment' you received when you were at school kept you in line; but did it teach you to have respect for others and their opinions?
May I suggest that you read this thread again and try to read your responses in the third person? How do you think you come over? There are many intelligent people on HP that do not need to resort to rudeness to put their opinions across or disagree with others.
I am truly sorry that you felt the need to reply in such a manner and that my post seemed to evoke such negative emotion from you. I hope, if you read the section of my original post that applies to you again, you can see the friendly manner in which it was intended.
If you would like to try again and respond to my post in an equally friendly manner then maybe we can have a good tussle of opinions as my points still stand, that way you may learn a little more about me and my involvement with our Armed Forces.
If not, I respect that and look forward to crossing paths with you on other posts.
If you feel the need to 'tell me what for' in a rude manner again may I kindly ask you do this in a pm as I will not respond to such a post on this thread again, as directed by HP protocol.
Take care.
Rx
David,
I think your friend's remarks are quite telling regarding the loss of manufacturing job opportunities for working class youth, particularly young men.
When I left school in '73 there were plenty of factory jobs available and some payed fairly good wages. In fact there were some factories in Swindon that payed production workers far more than junior staff in professions such as accounting, teaching or nursing.
Many of these jobs are now gone and as you pointed out minimum wage jobs are never going to offer a stable future.
On the other hand we do have people coming here from Poland and other European countries to do low payed jobs while we are happy to dole out welfare payments to able bodied young Brits who won't touch them.
I was glad to get the opinion of someone outside of HP altogether. I think he is often darned insightful, and the remark that - without going to uni and becoming a boffin - which is my way of wording it! - you have nothing else to aim for - rings true.
I went "both ways" so to speak, in the 70s, but there was much more money in factories and I did my time (it is how I paid for travel, but by the way I also could have become a top dog at computing, simply by putting in the hours), and you could make anything of yourself there. So I do believe the loss of such jobs - making them minimum wage across the board and for immigrants and so on - robs youth today of anything to aim for. Let us face it, not all of us are going to Oxbridge, and even if we do, so what? So the UK lacks immediate good job prospects for young people who are able but have nothing to do apart being minimum wage for life.
So - as I suggested before, let's focus on solutions. What's the solution(s)?
V
Ok..here's a thought...& I supose I need to get that sofa smiley ready:eek:
Maybe we're part of the problem (when I say 'we're' I mean the next generation in general)...sometimes it seems that we group 'youths, teens ect' into one catagory, and when something awful happens like the recent news that has started this discussion, we find that we're talking about the state of the youth of today...so perhaps some of the problem is that we are starting to see todays teens as yobs, as one entity (sp)..all of them that take part in the seasons fashion (or hoodie lol), it's as if some people who are more prone to get on a high horse and blame the state of sociaty on the lack of disapline don't see a child is a person who has emotions & weakness the same as we all do but only worse & more intense, kids maybe more confused and mixed up these days due to media junk, lack of family stability/values (nothing to do with single or 2 parents) and people like us...judging them, expecting the worst from their generation, grouping them as some sort of lost generation:rolleyes:...so perhaps, if we're looking for solutions it won't do any harm to look at our own perceptions too
Love
Amy
xxxx
Ok..here's a thought...& I supose I need to get that sofa smiley ready:eek:
Maybe we're part of the problem (when I say 'we're' I mean the next generation in general)...sometimes it seems that we group 'youths, teens ect' into one catagory, and when something awful happens like the recent news that has started this discussion, we find that we're talking about the state of the youth of today...so perhaps some of the problem is that we are starting to see todays teens as yobs, as one entity (sp)..all of them that take part in the seasons fashion (or hoodie lol), it's as if some people who are more prone to get on a high horse and blame the state of sociaty on the lack of disapline don't see a child is a person who has emotions & weakness the same as we all do but only worse & more intense, kids maybe more confused and mixed up these days due to media junk, lack of family stability/values (nothing to do with single or 2 parents) and people like us...judging them, expecting the worst from their generation, grouping them as some sort of lost generation:rolleyes:...so perhaps, if we're looking for solutions it won't do any harm to look at our own perceptions too
Love
Amy
xxxx
Hear Hear :047:
Of course, there are plenty of young people who are decent and law abiding and who any of us would be happy to work along side or know in general.
The vast majority are decent people. However there is also a problem with yobbish and anti-social behavior from a sizable minority that people would be foolish to ignore, just read the papers, watch the news or see the graffiti.
Where I live there are far fewer problems than, for example parts of South London or Nottingham. I live on a reasonably nice estate which has a church, a pub, and shops at its centre.
The problem is that the area outside the shop often during the evening has large groups of teenagers hanging about who loudly use foul language and are abusive. The shop staff often get abused, have to deal with successful or unsuccessful attempts to shoplift and general bad behavior.
There is the inevitable sheltered accommodation adjacent to the shopping area and a play park close by. Once the shop has closed at 11 pm the play park is occupied by teenagers until the early hours and the residents in the sheltered accommodation have to listen to the sound of their nocturnal recreation.
Some of these kids are school age, what on Earth are their parents thinking of allowing them to stay out all night in a play park drinking, smoking dope etc? Isn't this the sort of behavior that leads to emotional problems?
Wouldn't some discipline and structure in their lives be beneficial? Wouldn't it lead to these kids having a better future than the one they are on their way to if they carry on?
If parents are incapable of providing a stable and loving home life then the schools have to at least provide an environment where there is structure, rules and discipline.
Sometimes when your young you can be your own worse enemy and your mates can side with that enemy whereas your harshest critic can turn out to be your closest friend in the long run.
The problem is that the area outside the shop often during the evening has large groups of teenagers hanging about who loudly use foul language and are abusive. The shop staff often get abused, have to deal with successful or unsuccessful attempts to shoplift and general bad behavior.
There is the inevitable sheltered accommodation adjacent to the shopping area and a play park close by. Once the shop has closed at 11 pm the play park is occupied by teenagers until the early hours and the residents in the sheltered accommodation have to listen to the sound of their nocturnal recreation.
Some of these kids are school age, what on Earth are their parents thinking of allowing them to stay out all night in a play park drinking, smoking dope etc? Isn't this the sort of behavior that leads to emotional problems?
Where are the police in these instances? Is it not their job to enforce correct social behaviours? And where is the local MP in all this too? We had a spate in our local town of groups of youngsters gathering together and sometimes causing problems. This was stamped on fairly swiftly by the authorities and a curfew was enforced from 9pm every evening in the 'hot spots'. It has been lifted due to a positive response from the youngsters, but would be imposed again if necessary.
If parents are incapable of providing a stable and loving home life then the schools have to at least provide an environment where there is structure, rules and discipline.
Wouldn't parenting classes also be appropriate? Schools do have structure, rules and discipline but seem, in some cases, ill equipped to enforce it.
I am a strong believer in that aggression begets aggression.
A firm unwavering temperament, yes! But corporal punishment, No!
A lot of these unhappy, aggressive kids need a break and need to be shown another way of dealing with their frustrations. I talk from my own experience, I have worked with some very violent children and yes they did at times attempt to hurt you physically and mentally. But 'I' had the role of leader and I led them by example, whilst not accepting bad behaviours. And this method has to be strong and firm but never threatening. A lot of very badly behaved children are that way because they are scared and on the defensive. The last thing this type of child needs is yet another adult punishing them physically.IMO corporal punishment would be too damaging to already abused children and you cant apply it to some and not others. And unfortunately it tends to be the abused children that are behaving badly more often than not and so would receive more corporal punishment than those children from a stable background.
Rx
Mark
I'm sorry but IMVHO corporal punishment (as opposed to effective discipline) equates to violence. And also IMVHO if I went to see a holistic therapist I would not expect him/her to condone violence. This is only my personal opinion, others of course may disagree. There are many schools, though, who do use effective discipline that does not involve inflicting physical pain on their pupils. It's not the discipline that I object to; it's corporal punishment.
Sunanda xxx
There are different schools of thought and I am thankful for that fact and also different ways to enlightenment/self development. All of the methodologies in my therapies would be and are considered harsh by a lot of other therapists, just as I may consider their approach likened to tea and sympathy but, I cater to a certain market place and I have no end of referals it just goes to show that there is room for all approaches and as long as it is right for the client that is ALL that matters.
Sunanda come back and contribute more....
Cirrus I read your latest post and I take your point and humbly apologise to you at the display of my human failings.