I think that the world would be a less delightful place to be without people like you on it sunanda. Bless You.
Aw, thanks Jason. Bless you too!
Mark, I truly don't believe that today's society was engendered intentionally: I believe it evolved. I know your stance on today's government, but the people in power now are not those who governed this country a few decades back; they're not even from the same political party. My own POV is that a number of factors, a great number, combined to open up a Pandora's Box which no one now knows how to close. We live in interesting times (old Chinese curse).
But please don't ignore my point about it being ever thus....there really never was a golden age, but maybe one day there will be!
Love
Sunanda xxx
The term evolution in this context implies that humanity has no influence on its own destiny. Over the years people in power made choices that have profound influence on how we live today.
I'm not saying we should go back to the 50's I'm saying that since the 50's successive governments, whether Tory or Labour made choices that have lead to the present state of affairs.
Many of those choices have lead to the situation where the decent and law abiding fear the criminals among us and the criminals fear absolutely no one.
The decision to abolish corporal punishment in schools was made by Mrs Thatcher's Tory Government in 1987 to appease the EU. This was at a time when most schools in the UK had refrained from physical punishment for a number of years.
Strangely this didn't have a civilising effect on the school population. As further constraints on authority occurred things seem to have got worse.
Teenage gangs use physical punishment as a means of keeping their members in line and defending their territory, this is in spite of physical punishment never having been applied to them by anyone in authority and being in a school environment where physical punishment is disapproved of. How civilised is that?
hi HG
Yes, my original post was the shock & sadness about how someone so young could do something so evil, but that's about 1 boys actions, the satistics must be pretty low, it's like reading about a rapist then thinking all men are rapists (sorry for the example)
I agree it's one boy's action and I wasn't insinuating that all children are bad, however we seem to have more and more serious juvenile crime - as I mentioned before in a previous post - recently the shooting of Rhys Jones. Trouble is even 1 child's actions can have devastating consequences. The person who killed Rhys and the boy who killed this man - something has gone very badly wrong in their upbringing - whether it's parental neglect, drugs, the media - probably a whole combination of things. Many children today grow up "feral" - running round estates out of control and doing what they like. Rhys Jones not only lost his life needlessly but his family have to live without a grandson, son, brother. This man killed before being put on a bonfire - no doubt his family will never get over losing a son, brother etc. I've had a murder in my family - many years ago. Believe me it's doesn't just traumatise the family alive at that time but the repurcussions are felt down the generations.
Being a fluffy, I am a Guardian reader, and the good old Grauniad has just made it's archive electronic, and this week has been issuing supplements of archive material in the paper, some of which which would make your hair curl;(not that this awful story didn't make my hair curl - presumably these boys were drugged up) today there's a letter from someone who was threatened with being burnt alive by pirates who had just done the same to someone else. Also today, Dunkirk, a first hand account on 01/6/1940 from Dunkirk. But generally,on violence, plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose: the difference is drugs. So cheap, so available, so destructive.
To get 24 hour free pass for the news since 1821 go to www.guardian.co.uk and have a peek into the past. I used mine up on searching "incontinence".
I agree it's one boy's action and I wasn't insinuating that all children are bad, however we seem to have more and more serious juvenile crime - as I mentioned before in a previous post - recently the shooting of Rhys Jones. Trouble is even 1 child's actions can have devastating consequences. The person who killed Rhys and the boy who killed this man - something has gone very badly wrong in their upbringing - whether it's parental neglect, drugs, the media - probably a whole combination of things. Many children today grow up "feral" - running round estates out of control and doing what they like. Rhys Jones not only lost his life needlessly but his family have to live without a grandson, son, brother. This man killed before being put on a bonfire - no doubt his family will never get over losing a son, brother etc. I've had a murder in my family - many years ago. Believe me it's doesn't just traumatise the family alive at that time but the repurcussions are felt down the generations.
I can't even begin to imagine what emotions people must go through when loosing a loved one, it must be awful
'Feral' children is a common thing these days, I've never thought of it like that, it's not just restricted to poorer areas either, I know where I live there's kids that 'have' to stay outdoors because thats what their parents want rather then have the kids & their friends mess up the house, these kids do grow up more 'street wise'...well, to a fashion:o...but looking back to my parents generation, children always played outside too & some got up to naughty things, but then in those days pinching apples off trees was considered to be naughty, maybe the bounderies have just been pushed far too far. I agree also that drugs are a major problem....and as a parent a very worrying problem, as I already mentioned here my son was invited to smoke a spliff, today he's telling me about kids in his year getting 'done' for sniffing poppers:eek:, I am very open about drugs in the hope that throughout my childrens growing up they can talk to me about it, because they will get exposed to it like it or not...I haven't got any answers...but I do think that our children are exposed to far too much well before they're ready for it & as a parent it can be hard to know exaclty what they're being exposed to, it's quite scary really
The term evolution in this context implies that humanity has no influence on its own destiny. Over the years people in power made choices that have profound influence on how we live today.
Hi Mark, evolution was the wrong word,...natural progression maybe:confused: (OK admitted I'm stabbing in the dark:cool:)..is it all to do with choices of those in power, the parents of today would of been born in the 70's-ish (of older kids), and one of the things people wanted from that generation was more freedom and less oppression, we got what we wanted maybe..but only didn't know how to teach our children how to deal with that change because we, ok, not 'we', but some people didn't really know themselves & felt lost without the 'short sharpe shock' method..just a thought
Gosh, these kids are our future, it is up to us to try & direct them into 'nice balanced' adults...but in this day & age parents have got their work cut out for them....oh I'm suddenly starting to really dread those teenage years:(
I feel like I'm putting a really bad piont across here, it's just my way of trying to understand what's happening, is it not the case that every generation shocked the last..have the bounderies been pushed too far, guns, drugs, murder, is this the next rebellion, did we, in our teen years take all the 'safe' rebellion away from the children of today, but thankfully,it's still in the minority....(time for me to shut up:o)
xxx
Yep, I agree whole heartedly with Jason. When they leave school they should join the forces, even if it's just for 2 years. If they don't change in that time then they'll probably never change.
What harm could this do? Apart from it possibly being unfair to the people who they would be inflicted upon!
What harm could this do?
Well, they might get killed or injured for a start. Or they might kill or injure someone else.
But seriously, given what we've been learning about the lack of essentials such as body armour for our troops who are currently in Iraq and Afghanistan, together with the dreadful state of military accommodation, I don't think we could afford to bring back National Service.
I understand that Germany has a scheme (not sure if it's still in place, I learned of it a few years ago) whereby if boys didn't want to do their National Service in the military, they could sign up to spend it (one year? two years?) doing good works in a recognised charitable organisation. the reason I found out about it was that I met two young Germans who had convinced the powers that be in their country that Amma's ashram in India qualified as a charitable institution (as indeed it does) and they therefore spent their National Service there.
Love
Sunanda xxx
Edited to add another thought: if we put all our boys in the forces, that means that the bad guys will come out knowing all about armed and unarmed combat. Won't that make them more dangerous rather than less?
I have done all their disciplining without resorting to physical means, which is something I am proud of
Well a return to having corporal punishment in schools would be a good starter!! and how about National Service as well..
Hi aikijason
I am seeing a contradiction here, please enlighten me! (I have the correct body armour and tin hat, so bring it on!:028:)
You say that you refrained from hitting your children and are proud of yourself because of this, sounds quite 'liberal' parenting to me:015: and so from one 'fluffy' to another I salute you :048: sir!
But...... why do you not afford this same 'liberalism' to someone else's children???
Rx
....................................................................................................
National Service.......You apply it to one you apply it to all. What parent would happily allow their son to serve their NS knowing they could be going to war in Afghanistan or Iraq after 6 months combat training? NS would make everyone pay for the crimes of a few.
Have we not already learnt that forcing men to go to war who do not wish to be there is not only potentially devastating to them but to their families also, especially if they come home in a box. So for me NS could never successfully apply in 2007.
And besides.....did National Service not create, psychologically, many problems for young men who were not able to endure such a regime back in the 40s, 50s, early 60s? Did it not tarnish the Forces reputation with the young generation of the time? Did it not become a drain on resources both in the Forces and Civi Land?
Our children today are a result of 'us'. They do not stand alone; they have evolved through us, as we did our parents, as they did theirs. And the majority are respectful, law abiding citizens that we should be proud of.
The minority of bad apples in our society should be dealt with by our Civilian government and not our already under-budgeted Armed Forces.
Rx
Hi aikijason
I am seeing a contradiction here, please enlighten me! (I have the correct body armour and tin hat, so bring it on!:028:)
You say that you refrained from hitting your children and are proud of yourself because of this, sounds quite 'liberal' parenting to me:015: and so from one 'fluffy' to another I salute you :048: sir!
But...... why do you not afford this same 'liberalism' to someone else's children???
Rx
....................................................................................................
National Service.......You apply it to one you apply it to all. What parent would happily allow their son to serve their NS knowing they could be going to war in Afghanistan or Iraq after 6 months combat training? NS would make everyone pay for the crimes of a few.
Have we not already learnt that forcing men to go to war who do not wish to be there is not only potentially devastating to them but to their families also, especially if they come home in a box. So for me NS could never successfully apply in 2007.
And besides.....did National Service not create, psychologically, many problems for young men who were not able to endure such a regime back in the 40s, 50s, early 60s? Did it not tarnish the Forces reputation with the young generation of the time? Did it not become a drain on resources both in the Forces and Civi Land?
Our children today are a result of 'us'. They do not stand alone; they have evolved through us, as we did our parents, as they did theirs. And the majority are respectful, law abiding citizens that we should be proud of.
The minority of bad apples in our society should be dealt with by our Civilian government and not our already under-budgeted Armed Forces.
Rx
The fact that I agree with corporal punishment, yet do not use this in my home is not a contradiction at all. It means that if one of my children were punished in this way (as I was at School) I would not object because they probably did something to deserve it.
My Mother never used corporal punishment on me either but signed a consent form to have it used on me if it was deemed necessary.
With my children I used psychological techniques that are taught in the army, yes i am ex-military and yes I went to war in Kuwait so that the bleeding heard middle classes could screw up this country and I guess that they, like you, will just roll over and say that it is complicated and there are lots of issues to address and shut their doors and say well it's not bothering me it's someone elses problem.
All I am trying to say is don't rule it out and if everything else has been tried and been unsuccessful then lets try this and see if it works. How do you know it will not work? The answer is you don't but you are happy to sit in comfort and judgement on what is right.
I really don't appreciate the fact that people like you can make light of what soldiers are preparred to do because they are given orders and are told it is right. I did fight in a war for this country and I saw people killed and did some myself and this time round I lost a cousin to a road side bomb in Iraq are my family saying we should not be fighting this war.....NO we are morning a loss but proud he stood up to be counted for his country for something he believed was right..........
I was prone almost to despair too when I read about this, and just as others have said, there is no one magic answer, and answers would be a bit complex. Not to mean that there isn't a way to deal with it.
One thing is that although one might find a bit of this here and there in other nations, it is definitely, so far as I can see, a particular UK problem. I forget details, but a continental poll recently named us as having the biggest yobbo problem. So it's something especially to do with the UK ...
I'd also say that in some ways it's too late to deal with those who are already teens: maybe I'm wrong, but their parents aren't bringing them up correctly at all. Then again, the present-day teens are the parents of the future - so where to begin in solving this?
This country sure has changed. Can I get this one off my chest? A couple of weeks ago I was on city public transport, upstairs on a bus. Teens always, just always, play filthy rap songs on our local busses now, so I was ready for that. But five at the back started playing something I'd never have dreamed possible. It went on for several minutes, all about mocking and detailing the facts, in such a mocking style, of female periods. There was just one young lady there and sat as if frozen. I was outraged, but frankly I knew that if I took the five on there would definitely be a fight (they wouldn't listen to words but would react) - and either I'd lose anyway, or even if I won I'd get hurt, have goods with me damaged or stolen...
It's a whole different world today. But I'd still say it's largely a UK problem that you won't find in many other nations. So why is it (I don't know offhand) that the UK in particular has got like this?
I'm just about ready to say extreme measures are necessary. For example there's a discussion above about corporal punishment at school. Well, it only added to respect and a mutual love of our school when I was that age. It's not as if you got it without deserving it - it never happened to me, but to those who were the real rogues, and it helped all round.
V
was outraged, but frankly I knew that if I took the five on there would definitely be a fight (they wouldn't listen to words but would react) - and either I'd lose anyway, or even if I won I'd get hurt, have goods with me damaged or stolen...
I'm personaly inclined to avoid going on a bus at school home times due to kids 'showing off':o...because in a weird and twisted way 'showing off' is what they're doing IMHO, lack of bounderies means they have pushed them further insearch of that 'shock value'
You're best to stay out of things like that, like you said it could of ended up in a fight where you may of got seriously hurt or more so if you'd of struck back in self defense you may find yourself in trouble with the law,......hense full circle about 'punishments'...sigh...there must be another way:(
xxx
original: aikijason
I really don't appreciate the fact that people like you can make light of what soldiers are preparred to do because they are given orders and are told it is right.
I know you feel strongly about this jason especially considering the things that you have seen and done in the military and your cousin's death, but it's a bit unfair to post something like the above. I mean, if it's directed towards Cirrus, then there's nothing in her post that 'makes light' of what soldiers do.
How about calling on those blessings again - they are needed all round, just as much by the villains as by the victims.
Love
Sunanda xxx
You know, it's nice to arrive at actual possible solutions rather than just blabbing off. 🙂 If any mod thinks my subject here should be the start of a new thread then do feel free to move it. But I'm on another forum about very specific topics, and I find the way it is handled there to be very refreshing. Out of a possible 20 topics, there's a vote to keep to three, so that from the off we are focussed and not all over the place. (That's not a criticism of HP which by nature can be about almost anything.) Having decided what the few topics are, posts are focussed and always constructive. I don't mean that they are necessarily correct - they are still just personal opinions. But you do feel that you are getting to the core of a problem.
So I'm suggesting that we might discuss "What is wrong with our youth and youth culture?" Of course, I know that doesn't apply to all young people.
I'm particularly interested in (1) Do people agree that it is in particular a UK problem? That you might see it elsewhere, but more so in the UK? and (2) What are the actual causes, and what would be the solutions, given that we have possibly identified causes?
This would be a constructive step forward, rather than us all moaning away, hey? To focus on what the causes may be, with whatever evidence we can offer for our opinions? TBH, it's more than even our politicians are doing right now, so let's start addressing the subject on HP?
V
Sunanda,
are you saying that all therapists have to have a certain opinion regarding how to deal with anti-social behaviour?
Jason isn't advocating violence, He'es mearly pointing out, as I have ,that when schools used effective disciplen it engendered a culture of respect for authority rather than the contempt for the rights of others that we see so often today.
Dunkirk
Sunanda,
are you saying that all therapists have to have a certain opinion regarding how to deal with anti-social behaviour?Jason isn't advocating violence, He'es mearly pointing out, as I have ,that when schools used effective disciplen it engendered a culture of respect for authority rather than the contempt for the rights of others that we see so often today.
Dunkirk
Mark
I'm sorry but IMVHO corporal punishment (as opposed to effective discipline) equates to violence. And also IMVHO if I went to see a holistic therapist I would not expect him/her to condone violence. This is only my personal opinion, others of course may disagree. There are many schools, though, who do use effective discipline that does not involve inflicting physical pain on their pupils. It's not the discipline that I object to; it's corporal punishment.
Sunanda xxx