Is our education going down the drain ?

Innit.

😀

I suspect you're right. I read that many businesses are sending their new recruits for basic maths and english classes! (And having seen some of the work from school leavers when I've recruited in the past, I would have done the same, had that been an option. Instead I had to waste time checking their work.)

And next year, everyone will delude themselves that exams are not getting easier. In the end, balance will be achieved as somewhere down the line, when you have to know how to spell "there", "they're" and "their", things will come home to roost, as they say.

What always makes me laugh is that you get critics saying the English language is too hard (it isn't) and that they should permit txt spk in egg hams. :rolleyes:

We should be worried; the likes of India and China will dominate us financially if we rest on our laurels and make things easier for everyone. We are a service industry in the main; this means that our best way of competing on the global plane is with our minds not our hands. China and India are mainly product-driven business fields but their service sector is growing; already, so many services have been out-sourced to India (from help desks to IT services; if only because it's a lot cheaper) and now many businesses are looking to China to provide manufacturing and services, so we need to pull up our socks, or end up with mass unemployment.

Literacy levels here are lower than other major first world countries and many leave school (including those having done A' Levels) unable to:

- do basic maths (indeed amongst women/girls it's almost a "badge of honour" by saying Ooh I'm hopeless at maths !!) such as adding, subtracting, percentages and multiplication without the use of a calculator or counting their fingers. Some can't do it WITH a calculator. Others I know can't even weigh things or read a tape measure - so how can they do ordinary, everyday stuff like DIY, cookery etc ??

- set out letters/CVs correctly, spell correctly, read with any confidence

- speak at least one foreign language with some level of fluency - apart from odd words or phrases

- recall anything about the geography/history of the UK and/or the world

- have even a limited conversation about a variety of topics such as politics, world affairs, religions/faiths etc.

I just think we're walking blindly into the future. As you say, other countries will soon overtake us and leave us standing. Many companies have gone abroad, as they are assured of a well educated workforce. I find it shameful that countries which are in the third world/ex communist countries are streaking ahead of us - yet no-one has the political will to do anything. Tony Blair's cry was education, education and education but what a mess we're in. He wanted all schools to have PCs - what's the point of that if the kids can't read or write ?? Literacy levels were HIGHER before computers were even available.

The Polish lad said that when he was in Poland he was "average" at Maths - here he was described as a genius compared to his classmates. Something's wrong somewhere.

I really agree with you here, Happygirl, but don't often voice my feelings as I'm bound to be labelled a grumpy old woman. I've thought for years that children are no longer educated to the standards which used to apply 'when I was a girl'! I think the rot started setting in with the abolition of grammar schools and secondary moderns: surely there were then and will always be some kids who are more academically inclined and some who benefit more from vocational training. 'In my day' (here comes the grumpy old woman bit) we had to learn things off by heart: multiplication tables, poems, rules of grammar etc. We exercised our brains. And I can still remember some of that stuff forty years on. We learned facts, like the date of the battle of Waterloo, rather than imagining what it felt like to be the Duke of Wellington. (I have argued long and hard with a friend who favours the latter approach but I still maintain that you should get the facts under your belt first before you start on the empathy.)
I can still remember my horror when my son brought his spelling book home from primary school and his teacher had written 'burgular' instead of 'burglar'. that was followed by my first visit to his secondary school when I asked the English teacher how they taught grammar only to be told scornfully 'we don't teach grammar any more'.
IMO we have deprived two generations of children of the tools they need to succeed in life. OK so they have calculators and computers but to put their faith in mechanics is IMV really really risky. You only have to watch quiz games like The Weakest Link to see the paucity of most people's general knowledge. Does this matter? Well, I think it does. And I don't think that computers are going to help one little bit. Add this to the general lack of respect that most kids have for education, any studious child is labelled a 'geek' etc, and the general dumbing down of teaching across the board and I think it's a recipe for disaster. I think we have really sold our kids down the river and I feel very very sorry for them.

Love
Sunanda xxx

schools

yes the education the children of today recevied ,is far below standard ,
where does the blame lie .
it as got to be with all of us for allowing standards to drop in schools .
our many parents actual turn up for open evening and question the teachers ,
when my two were going thou school , we never missed a open evening .
we allways took time of a evening to sit with our children and talk to them about there home work . make sure there done there home work with pride .
we also spent time reading books with our children of a night ,the children and there education came well before tv of a night .
our many people have raise the question of the education with the schools .
our many parents actual take part in any part of school life :confused:
whilst my two went thou primary and seconary school . i came part of the school goveren body and voice , what i thought at to happen in schools .
it is a sad state , when chidren leave school and can not do the basic , ie read and write along with basic maths,
but if we allow teachers in to school to teach , who cant read write .or do basic maths what chance do the children stand .
bring back standards , dress code and grammer schools along with children callimg " teacher sir or miss ." not first names and teachers dress as teachers not as if there going out for a stroll in there olders untidys non iron clothers:eek:

Well Ray rush, excuse me!!!!!

but if we allow teachers in to school to teach , who cant read write .or do basic maths what chance do the children stand .
bring back standards , dress code and grammer schools along with children callimg " teacher sir or miss ." not first names and teachers dress as teachers not as if there going out for a stroll in there olders untidys non iron clothers

You have really got my hackles up....how dare you criticise teachers in such a general manner...particularly when your English isn't that good. I consider myself a very tolerant person, and as a TEACHER of secondary school science, I have to be!!

I am the first to say that the education system isn't perfect, but as teachers we are fully qualified to degree standard, I would love to know the teachers that you know who cannot read or write or do basic maths. I have been a teacher for 10 years and will never give up on the system as that would be, IMO, giving up on the future of our children.

You make a good point, however, about the lack of parental support. We are not even allowed to chastise pupils in certain ways because parents will be on our backs, however the same pupils are allowed to tell us to F**k off!! Do you know what they generally get for that...30 minute detention, then it has to be agreed with the parent!? Parents evenings, so few turn up, and like you I didn't miss one of my kids, not one!!

I do take everybody's point about the use of computers and text talk, I have had numerous requests for pupils to be allowed to use computers for taking notes in my classes because they have a low spelling 'age' or dyslexia. I never have allowed it, if they don't try, they will not improve!! The only problem is that computers are the way of the future and we have to accept this. What pupils need is a more holistic education which prepares them, not only academically, but socially and morally, for what life throws at them. To be able not to give up in adversity, or turn to drugs and therefore make correct, informed choices. We do not teach RE at our school, we teach VE which stands for values education. We incoporate religion into teaching them to value others and their opinions and choices. We also have, once a day, a broadcast by pupils, shown on our own tv network which covers all current affairs, like a mini news program. We then take time out to talk to pupils about these current affairs, we encourage them to discuss and evaluate their lives in these contexts.

When I started teaching at this school, 10 years ago, newly qualified, the school was in special measures, kids behaved badly. Now we are one of the most improved (top 2%) schools in the country, we have worked B****y hard to get there, and will continue!!

We must be positive about our education system and our kids, they are our future! There is something wrong with the youth today, but don't let the blame fall on the teachers! We need answers not just finger pointing and criticism.

Crabapple

Hi Crabapple
(BTW - you'll have noticed that I did say two generations?;))

I really don't think it's the down to the teachers at all: I think there's a variety of factors at work, which makes addressing the problem even more difficult. Basically, children are not the same nowadays, they don't operate within the same parameters as we did (in my case forty odd years ago.) Respect for authority has been eroded, childrens' attention spans are often minimal, noise levels are higher than would have been tolerated before. I take my hat off to the teachers at your school at the way you have turned things around. There is so much good practice around - but it would still appear to be the exception rather than the rule. Kids are not interested in most of what they are being taught (I surmise) and the government's constant harping on the necessity of tests is ridiculous. Wasn't there a report recently which said that there's a lot wrong with our education process not least the amount of time wasted on following blindly the government syllabus and on constant testing. So what does the Education Minister pronounce? 'We don't agree with these findings; we know that testing our children until they and their teachers are totally frazzled is the way to go.' Bah! (Sorry:))

Love
Sunanda x

Hi Sunanda,

I agree with you, and I don't know, but I think that kids just don't value education any more. In previous generations, it was looked up to and almost revered! World war 2 disrupted the education of so many, the generation of my parents, who then valued education to its hilt. Kids have now lost that, it is all too easy for them, they need the boundaries reset and enforced. If you said to the next generation, you can't go to school, you're not having it, then, by gum, they would start to want it and value it again.

I am currently doing a masters degree in education, and feel this is going to be the area of my research thesis. 'What switches kids on to learn?' how good it would be to be able to answer that question.

And as for tests!!! One example, I have taught higher level chemistry for the last few weeks to my year 11s and by all accounts they were doing really well. Get to testing them, the compulsory test at the end of the unit, they almost all get grade e's and f's. As I run through the test with them, they were answering the questions perfectly, so I ask them why couldn't they do this test.....answer....cos its a boring test and they couldn't be fussed! They are totally and utterly tested out! When this group gets to do their final exams, they will succeed with a string of C's B's and A's, but only because I have decided that is the last in school test I do, just official ones from now on! They have so many other attributes that are such good qualities and you cannot test for those, but you can nurture them!

Crabapple xx

I have just had about 50 applicants for an admin/reception job and have been very disappointed at the standard of applications.

Covering letters with simple spelling mistakes like i instead of I, poor spacing, paragraphing and grammar. Obviously not checked prior to sending.

I have also had people attend for interview who have stood with their hands in their pockets throughout. Then phone up a week later asking why they didn't get the job!!

Sigh!!

Don't know whether to pity or get annoyed at them.

Patchouli

Well, I don't think Im the most academic person on this earth, I have 7 Highers (Scottish equivalent of A levels), a degree and 2 postgraduate diplomas.
My brother has 4 Highers and a degree. I come from a very ordinary working class family where we were supported into doing what we wanted to do, not necessarily university.

My mum is a teacher and has been teaching for 37 years and her speciality if you like, is trying to assist pupils who were struggling to make the most of their abilities. She has spent thousands of hours of her own time tutoring pupils for no fee.

Teachers have a much harder job that many of us think. My mum is a mainstream teacher and has had kids in her class with severe ADHD and was unsupported by the education system in being able to teach them. She said that when someone has ADHD in the classroom, you have to focus all your attention onto that pupil. Obviously in that instance everyone suffers including the young person who needs extra specialised attention.

I will say this, it took me until I was 34 and at university for the third time to actually begin to enjoy studying, I took that degree during one of the worst times of my life, was able to ask for help from my tutors, got encouragement and support.
Lack of confidence held me back in my younger days and I think that at 15 or 16 you might not be mature enough to know what you want to do and how to do it.

I also firmly believe that Governments invest more money into much less worthy causes than education.

Hi Patchouli,

Funny you should say that, as the next 'drive' we have got to do with our year 11s, is the simple area of how to conduct themselves at interviews. Our kids tend to have such attitudes and think that the world owes them something, nothing should be worked towards as far as they are concerned!! Point is, that wherever they have got this attitude from, it is no good just moaning about, we have got to 'unteach' this and 'reteach' the right attitude. It can be done!! You show any teenager a video or role play of the scenario you wrote about, with hands in pockets etc...they would soon be telling you that it isn't right!

They must have the correct behaviour and attitudes modelled for them, and unfortunately, some parents can't do this, so guess what, it is then down to the teachers!

Crabapple xx

teachers

crabapple

i do accept that we do have some very good first class teachers that do put in a lot of hours and give up a lot of there own spare time for the good of the kids .
where i got that some teachers can not read and write properly, is the books my children bring home from school , the comments put in them by some of the teachers , the spelling is incorrect.
yes , i would like to see , when a child tells a teacher to f*** off . he is then told not to return to school untill is parents have been up there .
children have got to start to be taught to respect the teachers that teach then ,
yes and parents have got to start to back the teachers and take time in there life to take part in schools .
yes a lot of teacher have work hard to get schools that are in special measures ,out of special and turning them around .
why as society and parents allow the education to go the way it as ,
why did we allow grammer schools to be done away with.
i did not and would not blame teachers for the state of todays education,
we as a society and parents grand parents have allow standards and education right thou out the country to drop .
i say again , yes a lot of teachers do work long hours and give a lot to the schools and kids ,

ray

Yes they do and education is also very underfunded as I said earlier. I also think that there should be more emphasis on parenting and parenting classes.
I say this because where I live, I have 7 and 8 year olds smashing things to bits, the environment that I and they live in.
If a child is getting cuddles one minute and shouted at the next, how on earth will they know how to conduct themselves.
It's too easy to blame teaching staff when some parents don't give 2 hoots what their child gets up to and I say this because I live somewhere where I am regularly verbally abused by kids as young as seven.

I am also the daughter of a very good and very dedicated teacher, who does her best under some very difficult circumstances.

To add to this thread, I do think that teachers do a good job and work damned hard, too, but it's the old "you can lead a horse to water" concept. This society as a whole wants the rewards without putting in the required work, which will be our downfall.

Crabapple,

I know you have been somewhat annoyed by people who criticise Teachers but there have been some rather dodgy teaching practices that have emerged since the beginning of the last century

The teaching of reading is a case in point where it was very progressive to move away from phonics and synthetic phonics to a 'child centered', whole language approach. I don't claim to be any sort of expert on this and I'm sure you will enlighten us on these methods, but what I understand of it is that it allowed many children to slip under the radar in terms of their lack of reading ability.

Another criticism is that progressive educationalists have seen comprehensive education as fertile ground for social engineering. Making society more equal is seen as more important than providing sound education. This is one of the theories that lies in opposition to the idea of selection in education and why grammar shools are anathema to those holding such a view.

Dunkirk