Some of these kids are school age, what on Earth are their parents thinking of allowing them to stay out all night in a play park drinking, smoking dope etc? Isn't this the sort of behavior that leads to emotional problems?
In todays society there are more and more single parent families and to make ends meet the parent has to work all hours or do night shifts (this can even apply where there are still both parents), so the kids rarely get to see their parents and have to 'entertain' themselves, which they obviously do by going out with their mates.
Wouldn't some discipline and structure in their lives be beneficial? Wouldn't it lead to these kids having a better future than the one they are on their way to if they carry on?
If parents are incapable of providing a stable and loving home life then the schools have to at least provide an environment where there is structure, rules and discipline.
And who is going to discipline these kids out of school hours when the parents are at work?
Where are the police in these instances? Is it not their job to enforce correct social behaviours?
Unlike a lot of people here on HP, the Police aren't psychic. Someone actually has to call them to get them there if there is a problem, and just the act of calling the police can cause more problems for the people if the trouble makers aren't dealt with effectively in the first instance. This can be tricky because the youth aren't that stupid; in fact their very clever to know how to 'get away' with stuff and cover each others tracks.
It isn't the job of the Police to enforce social behaviours, it is their job to deal with crime and law enforcement. If they turn up and all they can see is a group of youths drinking then the most they can do, in order to maintain peace is to ask them to go home. If they're not doing anything 'criminal' at the time then the Police can do no more.
And where is the local MP in all this too?
Again, that's up to the local people to get involved and decide they want to change it.
Wouldn't parenting classes also be appropriate? Schools do have structure, rules and discipline but seem, in some cases, ill equipped to enforce it.
If there are parents to attend them and it assumes that the parents of today are not the bad youth of yesterday and actually give a **** (:rolleyes: Save Mike's profanity checker).
Coming back to what Venetian was talking about.
It's true that nowadays there aren't the decent paid jobs for the un-acedemic to go to when leaving school at 16.
As with everything there's multiple factors involved, but they can be summed up as socio-economic. The state of this countries economy profers favourably in the direction of those who wish to take up office jobs and does little for the industrial sectors. Most of the industry has now moved abroad and the products shipped in because it works out cheaper for the companies involved. There used to be days when kids could leave school and get an apprenticeship with a manufacturing firm or with a craftsman. Nowadays the only jobs that have anything like this tend to be the electricians, plumbers and builders. As has already been mentioned, the low-waged jobs are all being taken up by workers from abroad, partially because they are willing to do the jobs for such a low wage and partially because the un-acedemic youth of the UK don't want to work for what they percieve to be such a low wage. Why won't they work for such a low wage when they don't have any skills to offer for higher wages.... a) because they can sufficient from just living on benefits and not doing anything for the privilege and b) we live in an age where everything is about image; ipods, computers, fashions, DVD's etc. etc. and they know they can't afford those things with a low wage hence the temptation to turn to crime.
As for whether this is more likely in the UK, I'm not so sure. I think it's reported about in the media more in the UK. The US appears to have just as much of a gang culture and youth problem although theirs seems to focus differently on ethnic gangs and school shootings etc. In somewhere like France there is ethnic problems towards immigrant Algerians and they are the ones who end up doing the low waged jobs and who's youth are looked upon as the obvious criminals even if they've done nothing wrong.
And this is only touching on the surface of where the issues are. 🙁
How to solve these problems... I'm just not sure.
Love and Reiki Hugs
I have been thinking about this a lot over the weekend and I think that there are common themes that we are all kind of in agreement with and they are:
1 - That there is an element of lawlessness and disrespect in our society that is getting worse.
2 - There is no hard and fast answer to this problem and there are as many objections and ideas on how to tackle it.
3 - The issue in hand is complex and needs a number of approaches to stem the tide of disrespect and lawlessness.
4 - From all of the contributors to this thread and within the forum as a whole most people would all agree that doing SOMETHING to tackle the problem is better than doing nothing, would we not?
Now given that there are many approaches/ideas on how to approach this problem of lack of respect/lawlessness this seems to me to be similar to the idea that there are a number of approaches to complimentary therapy and within these approaches, I would think that the needs of the client are paramount, are they not?
Also clients are apt to gravitate towards therapies that resonate with them or will try a few and settle on a methodology that is right for them.
Therefore would this not also be the case for the methodologies/approaches that we could use to work on teaching self respect and self discipline are valid in the right context, and that even though some people would disagree with an approach for what ever reason the client/individual experiencing the approach may simply not want to change things and are quite happy with things a certain way.
In a nutshell there is no right or wrong answer to this, however the fact that we are all involved in talking through this issue is a good thing and I applaud you all for that.
Now I wonder how many of us are actually doing something about it?
Hiya giles
In todays society there are more and more single parent families and to make ends meet the parent has to work all hours or do night shifts (this can even apply where there are still both parents), so the kids rarely get to see their parents and have to 'entertain' themselves, which they obviously do by going out with their mates.
I tend to disagree with this & perhaps if this IS the case then more focus should be put into living within your budget, i'm not a single parent & took the choice not to work & bring up my kids, at one point i did go back to work, I loved getting that bit of my life back & the extra money was a fab bonus but in order for me to do that I had to make sure I had child care, these days parents get help to pay for childcare, so if either a single parent or both parents work then safe care for their children should be in place because with family tax credit extra they get extra to help pay for the care (correct me if i'm wrong, I'm not too sure if there's an age limit for childcare help), there's no excuse to turning a blind eye to what your children get up to or allowing them to hang around the streets...besides anything else it's just not safe! This is what makes be go back to my view on family values not really being a key thing anymore
And who is going to discipline these kids out of school hours when the parents are at work?
A parent shoudn't be at work if they haven't made sure that there's someone to look out for their kids iMHO.....:hidesbehindsofa:...O I think I'm going to get some flack for that😮
Unlike a lot of people here on HP, the Police aren't psychic
LoL..but if there was more of a police presence on the streets like there used to be then perhaps kids would be deterred (sp) from getting up to naughty business, a few more patrol cars at night ect,...kids just shouldn't be out on the streets after 9pm...again just my VHO;)
There used to be days when kids could leave school and get an apprenticeship with a manufacturing firm or with a craftsman. Nowadays the only jobs that have anything like this tend to be the electricians, plumbers and builders.
erm..rememeber Youth Training Schemes....a way to expliot school leavers, I was happy to see them go at the time but perhaps something simular should be brought out but only if companies are made to be fair..ie allow kids to learn more then making the tea & going to the shop & also that there really is a genuine job or some qualifaction at the end of it
Love
Amy
xxx
Ok..here's a thought...& I supose I need to get that sofa smiley ready:eek:
Maybe we're part of the problem (when I say 'we're' I mean the next generation in general)...sometimes it seems that we group 'youths, teens ect' into one catagory, and when something awful happens like the recent news that has started this discussion, we find that we're talking about the state of the youth of today...so perhaps some of the problem is that we are starting to see todays teens as yobs, as one entity (sp)..all of them that take part in the seasons fashion (or hoodie lol), it's as if some people who are more prone to get on a high horse and blame the state of sociaty on the lack of disapline don't see a child is a person who has emotions & weakness the same as we all do but only worse & more intense, kids maybe more confused and mixed up these days
I don't buy that, Amy, sorry! It almost sounds as if you are saying the problem isn't really there? We could be a bit unruly too when I was that age but, er, we didn't throw real living men onto bonfires.
I presently live in about an average city area, and if I tried to address unruly youths here - like those on the bus that I mentioned - there's a 50% chance I'd end up dead. Something has certainly changed.
I wonder what, since we can't just go back in time, could replace the well-paid and career-oriented jobs that once existed? I mean, even being on a production line once paid big bucks - now it's more likely to be done by temps on the minimum wage. It must be very discouraging to those leaving school.
V
I don't buy that, Amy, sorry! It almost sounds as if you are saying the problem isn't really there? We could be a bit unruly too when I was that age but, er, we didn't throw real living men onto bonfires.
I presently live in about an average city area, and if I tried to address unruly youths here - like those on the bus that I mentioned - there's a 50% chance I'd end up dead. Something has certainly changed.
I wonder what, since we can't just go back in time, could replace the well-paid and career-oriented jobs that once existed? I mean, even being on a production line once paid big bucks - now it's more likely to be done by temps on the minimum wage. It must be very discouraging to those leaving school.
V
Don't be sorry V, you don't have to buy anything, there was nothing in my post for sale:)
I'm sure if I was to delve in the achives of history I would come across such horror stories, there was a program on TV ages ago, I forget what it was called, it was wonderfully done, they had todays kids reading out news reports from the past & kind of re acting them...really it could of been todays news
My main piont as part of the problem/solution,& i still go along with it, is that if we carry on giving kids this 'image'...either individaul POV's or media attention then that 'image' is what they have to live up to, kids go through a stage in life where they need to find an identity & the image of todays kids is pretty negative..but having my own kids I know they're not all bad kids, I know now is saying that all kids are bad but I do feel that todays kids get grouped together as an unruley generation
xxx
In my teens, Amy, none of my friends went through a "stage in life" or an "identity" during which they'd easily kill someone - which is how it truly is where I live now, and as in the initial story.
All the same, I did post suggesting that we try to find some consensus. So you've opened a point of view - "Is the problem actually there and real?" I vote yes, it is. And quite different to a generation ago.
V
Is the problem actually there and real
NO V!!!!!!!! THat is not what I am saying at all:mad:
edit to say: what I am saying though is that perhaps it won't do any harm for the older generations to take some responsibility for the todays growing adults
what I am saying though is that perhaps it won't do any harm for the older generations to take some responsibility for the todays growing adults
I absolutely agree with this sentiment and I do personally take full responsibility in ensuring that 2 of my offspring, who are young adults now, absolutely respect the laws of our society and strive to be upright and productive citizens.
The other one is too young at the mo but she will get the same messages and upbringing.
I only wish that EVERY parent did the same.... or sought help if it is beyond them...
I only wish that EVERY parent did the same.... or sought help if it is beyond them...
As already mentioned here, parent classes should be encouraged more, I think sometimes parents feel like they're a failure if they need to go to one, I think that maybe it's time that it's more available and without stigma. Even the best parents in the world may have difficulty at some stage in a childs life, being a parent can be a damn hard job...but as you know it has its rewards:)
I don't think it stops at the parents, as I've already ranted here, I also think the media, TV ect need to take responsibity to what they feed our kids on, as well as the fashion industry with those stupid full face coverage hoodies. Yes the state of our race is changing....and someone somewhere is cashing in on it £££££££££££££$$$$$$$
anyway...i will brush off my mild irritation of being tottally taken the wrong way, but for the record quote here the rest of what I said:)
kids maybe more confused and mixed up these days due to media junk, lack of family stability/values (nothing to do with single or 2 parents) and people like us...judging them, expecting the worst from their generation, grouping them as some sort of lost generation:rolleyes:...so perhaps, if we're looking for solutions it won't do any harm to look at our own perceptions too
We..you, me, him, her, the butcher, baker, candle stick maker cannot deny that we are all part of what the world has become...bit by bit standards have dropped, morals are lost, communities have gone, women feel both a pressure to go to work & then told they're bad for not being there for their kids, children IMO are the most important beings in our lives, whether their your kids or someone elses..heres a personal fact
I've moaned on HP a few times about the kids who live near me, the neighbors who have stuck barbed wire down where my cats go ect..well currently their kids have brand new air riffles & guess what there target is....lucky cats arnt thick & just stay away when the kids are out & go to the toliet in there garden later on...whilst the instant thing for me to do is think * & *** about those children..but...what if they do end up hurting an animal or a person...one day they will grow up and hopefully realise how wrong their actions where...but so long as there's no one to guide them or try & show them whats right or wrong how are the kids to know any better
xxx
I tend to disagree with this & perhaps if this IS the case then more focus should be put into living within your budget,
I wasn't saying that it applied to all parents or all single parents, but (and any welfare officer or council housing officer will confirm this) in the areas where the biggest problems are the parents are hardly able to be around to sort their kids out. There are so many low-earning families where e.g. the mother goes out and works as a barmaid each evening because she herself didn't get the education or support to get into a more highly paid or skilled job. And what does all that money go towards? In a lot of cases, the fags, booze, (drugs in some cases), and satellite TV. This isn't fiction, this is reality, I know someone who is a housing officer and has to deal with all this every day.
there's no excuse to turning a blind eye to what your children get up to or allowing them to hang around the streets...
Apart from when their around 12+ and just tell you to f**k off, they hate you and their going out with their mates, and they're generally stronger than you are, so if you try and stop them they just get abusive.
besides anything else it's just not safe!
Erm.... they'll be the ones who are making it not safe. 😉
This is what makes be go back to my view on family values not really being a key thing anymore
Totally agree. Society has got to a stage where work, money, big house, cars, Satellite TV etc. are more important than the family. How many families actually sit down for Sunday lunch together nowadays? With the shops being open on a Sunday it's now just another shopping day like any other.
A parent shoudn't be at work if they haven't made sure that there's someone to look out for their kids iMHO.....:hidesbehindsofa:...O I think I'm going to get some flack for that😮
No flack, but you have to consider those families/parents that just can't afford to pay for child care.
LoL..but if there was more of a police presence on the streets like there used to be then perhaps kids would be deterred (sp) from getting up to naughty business, a few more patrol cars at night ect,...kids just shouldn't be out on the streets after 9pm...again just my VHO;)
The police forces have been, in recent years, providing more Community Support Officers (PCSO's) for this very reason and it has helped in most cases. Unfortunately, in a lot of cases, the youth don't have any respect for the police or the pcso's and if they know that the pcso's don't have the ability to tackle them or arrest them then they'll just get treated like another person on the street.
erm..rememeber Youth Training Schemes....a way to expliot school leavers, I was happy to see them go at the time but perhaps something simular should be brought out but only if companies are made to be fair..ie allow kids to learn more then making the tea & going to the shop & also that there really is a genuine job or some qualifaction at the end of it
YTS was just the governments way of fudging their figures so it looked like unemployment was dropping whilst they were in office. It was exploited by employers and served very little benefit to the youth.
Old style apprenticeships offered proper job prospects in industries that were profitable. It's because those industries have been taken abroad that those job prospects have disappeared.
The first step to solving the problem may be for the government to take action to bring industry back to the UK.
Love and Reiki Hugs
Hello again G
And what does all that money go towards? In a lot of cases, the fags, booze, (drugs in some cases), and satellite TV. This isn't fiction, this is reality, I know someone who is a housing officer and has to deal with all this every day
Which is what I meant when I say 'live within their budgets'...it doesn't just apply to low income homes either...theres the high earners that 'have to have' the big car, 2+ holidays a year, labled cloths ect...
Apart from when their around 12+ and just tell you to f**k off, they hate you and their going out with their mates, and they're generally stronger than you are, so if you try and stop them they just get abusive.
Heavens above...if my 12 year old ever spoke to me like that it would be no tv, no pSP and early nights until he realises that he can't speak to me like that...or anyone else for that matter:mad:
Erm.... they'll be the ones who are making it not safe. 😉
LOL...but in reality it's not only children that make the streets unsafe
No flack, but you have to consider those families/parents that just can't afford to pay for child care
Like I said, there is help with paying for childcare but I'm not sure if it only applies to younger kids
yuk...apologies for the messy quote box post:o
xxxx
Unlike a lot of people here on HP, the Police aren't psychic.
Psychic Police hey? No….what I was intimating towards was that it is our responsibility as the ‘person on the street’ to report such instances as you describe Energylz. We can’t complain the system doesn’t work if we don’t use it correctly! And if we do find the system is not working in the way it was intended then it is our responsibility as British Citizens to address that.
Too often we complain and do nothing. I would not dream of turning my back on anyone in trouble. When I have been witness to bullying or vandalism from children I personally address it. I do not advocate that everyone should feel they have to address these sorts of situations personally but I absolutely do not advocate it is acceptable for us to turn the other way either. In the least, we should report such instances to the authorities that have a responsibility to deal with unsocial behaviours like the Police, CSOs, Local Government, Youth Workers, Schools etc etc.
I’ve said it before and I will say it again…..IMO if our youth is out of control then we should turn our gaze inwards and realise that we are also part of the same dynamic. And work from that point on.
Rx
The story below is from an earlier thread:-
About a month ago, during the one warm Friday evening we had in July I lay awake in bed listening to the sound of mayhem from the nearby 'village centre'
There was obviously a large group of youths congregated there and we found out later that there had been a fight between two rival gangs which resulted in a number of them being taken to hospital with various wounds.
Early on Saturday Morning around 06:30 we were awaken by shouting and swearing in the street outside our house. Two biggish young lads and a girl were argueing with someone who had taken refuge in our front porch.
The person in the porch turned out to be a freind of my Son who was on his way to work and had the misfortune to encounter these youths as he walked passed the shops. They accused him of being involved in the fight the previous evening...he wasn't he was doing a late shift, went straight home for an early night to be ready for an early shift the next day.
None of this mattered to the youths outside our house who had threatened to kill the lad in our porch because they believed that he was involved in the mayhem of the previous night. We took the lad in from the porch and called the police.
The police wouldn't attend but 'phoned nearly an hour later to ask if they were still needed. They took a few details and then issued an incident number. The police were not involved in any of the incidents the previous night when the fight happened in spite of being called by people working in the nearby shop.
This was a frightening experience for my family, my daughter is severely disabled and reacts badly to any sort of situation where angry words are exchanged so I'm sure you can imagine how this was not the best start to her day.
I contacted my local councillor who did write to the Police complaints authority on my behalf. The area in question was subject to an exclusion order where the police can restrict access to groups of youths.
At the time of the above incident the exclusion order had expired. This seems to mean that the police are less inclined to deal with anti-social behaviour problems when they are called.
To this day I have received no explanation from the police as to why they wouldn't respond on the morning in question or to the shop staff the previous evening.
In a seperate incident some weeks later the local shop was broken into at around midnight, The store manager tells me they were after the wines and spirits. They broke the wrong window in terms of a quick entry and exit and when the alarms went off the thieves escaped without any booze.
The police helicopter was scrambled, the searchlight looked down on the estate, into back gardens along alleys etc while police with dogs covered the ground.
They didn't find the villans and at around 1:30 it was all quiet. At about 4:am
the thieves felt sufficiently safe to return to the shop, break the right window and make off with a stash of booze. With all the CCTV and DNA databases the police still haven't caught them.
Perhaps all the clever equipment and sophisticated police methods are just making them remote from the people they are supposed to be serving, it hardly deters criminal activity if the police are unable to respond effectivly to a robbery.
To this day I have received no explanation from the police as to why they wouldn't respond on the morning in question or to the shop staff the previous evening.
Hi Dunkirk
May I ask if you have chased the Police and your LMP on this matter?
In Britain we have a reputation of being 'bad' complainers in that we either never complain in the first place or we stop our complaint before the issue has been resolved and this then plays into the hands of lazy people and/or organisations. If you are still involved in this issue 'all power to you' and I hope you find a satisfactory resolution for your family soon.
Your post indicates to me that we have a problem in our society and not just our youth. Society has disbanded in some sectors; we need to work together to pull it back. And I feel really strongly that this starts with us as individuals. Its like the 'domino effect' if we shift (positively) in our attitude then those around us shift too, and eventually this positive attitude has a knock-on effect.
Rx