Just back from an interesting meeting which resulted from the increasing no of graduates presenting their degree to try and APA (accreditation of prior achievement or be 'exempt') from parts of vocational (QCF) qualification eg non degree sports therapy / massage quals
The result (and a OFQUAL / QCF directive)
The majority of sports therapy grads cannot use their degree to exempt them from areas of QCF quals (units) even if they have the same syllabus / content
Reason
The pass mark for a degree can be as low as 40% whereas for QCF you need to achieve at least 70%, so it cannot be used as evidence of sufficiency
This means that unless you hav a 1st or higher, a degree cannot be used as APA for QCF quals
It may be used as RPL (and therefore not need any more learning) but the learner still has to be reassessed using the QCF documentation (this even includes A&P) so they can prove they can get at least 70%
There's a few more things too, but I thought this is the most intersting bit
Which is what we do at my school after a large number of grads were failing level 3 A&P exams (which has a 70% pass mark)
if some one has a degree over someone who has a diploma people will see the degree therapist as the better option thinking they are better trained better qualified and will give a better treatment, but with what is being said about pass marks can be very misleading, a pass mark of only 40%:eek: surely knowing less than 50% of the answers or worse about your trade is barely a qualified therapist
im not saying which or who is better (degree/diploma) that debate continues on other threads, im just saying that perhaps degrees need to have a higher pass mark to give it more of a value, what other qualifications are out there that you only need to know 40% of the qual
some degrees have a 30% "pass" grade
some degrees have a 30% "pass" grade
as long as you get your name right you pass:p send me the details of this course so i can have a degree then no one question my ability, if i have a cert/dip/degree i cover all bases:rolleyes:
i remember on my course one of our exams required an 80% pass mark, thank god i got 98%:D
I don't think judging a degree by its pass mark is very relevant. I used to employ university gads in a technical field, i.e not CAM.
As an employer I would look at the grade of the degree, and certainly wouldn't employ someone with less than a 2:2, i.e. 50%-59% or ideally a 2:1, i.e. 60%-69% or a 1st i.e. 70%-100%. The grad market is very competitive and employers be very selective who they employ. So I might be flamed for saying this, but I don't think a pass or a 3rd are worth much.
Myarka
I don't think judging a degree by its pass mark is very relevant. I used to employ university gads in a technical field, i.e not CAM.
As an employer I would look at the grade of the degree, and certainly wouldn't employ someone with less than a 2:2, i.e. 50%-59% or ideally a 2:1, i.e. 60%-69% or a 1st i.e. 70%-100%. The grad market is very competitive and employers be very selective who they employ. So I might be flamed for saying this, but I don't think a pass or a 3rd are worth much.
Myarka
Is it me being daft, or do these two paragraphs contradict each other?
the first says it is not relevant, the second says you did use it as selection criteria?
confused.combgfl
Is it me being daft, or do these two paragraphs contradict each other?
the first says it is not relevant, the second says you did use it as selection criteria?
confused.combgfl
I was just illustrating that the pass mark isn't what's taken into account. It's the grade that's important and it reflects a band of average marks, not a specific percentage. Also degrees at the pass level are generally not accepted as a suitable qualification in a specific subject. If you want to go on and do a post grad degree, it's normal for a 2:2 to be the minimum entry requirement.
Myarka
well if employers will only take degrees at higher levels and those degree marks that are less than 50% are most of the time not considered, then why on earth have a pass mark so low, there are so many arguments on HP about which is better degree/dip but if someone has a degree that is less than 59% is considered not good enough well....:rolleyes::eek: most diplomas require hands on training pass marks of 70% or higher its no wonder we cant get gov regulated.
i would think that you should know at least 2 3rds of the subject you are learning to get a pass thats 63%:rolleyes: whether its a degree/diploma/certificate
standards standards standards:D
I was just illustrating that the pass mark isn't what's taken into account. It's the grade that's important and it reflects a band of average marks, not a specific percentage. Also degrees at the pass level are generally not accepted as a suitable qualification in a specific subject. If you want to go on and do a post grad degree, it's normal for a 2:2 to be the minimum entry requirement.
Myarka
notsoconfused.co.bgfl
well if employers will only take degrees at higher levels and those degree marks that are less than 50% are most of the time not considered, then why on earth have a pass mark so low, there are so many arguments on HP about which is better degree/dip but if someone has a degree that is less than 59% is considered not good enough well....:rolleyes::eek: most diplomas require hands on training pass marks of 70% or higher its no wonder we cant get gov regulated.
i would think that you should know at least 2 3rds of the subject you are learning to get a pass thats 63%:rolleyes: whether its a degree/diploma/certificate
standards standards standards:D
errr 66% ?
:eek:haha well see i dont have a degree in maths:p brain not working right at mo just been on a very long bike ride, nearly 4hrs in this sun & heat:eek:
but really i was just testing you lot to make sure you read my post:p
yes 66% should be min pass mark, but i think that degrees are so expensive now that they have to make sure the students pass, your work would have to be pretty poor to only just get above the min % mark
the problem i think the ST/SR BSc is going to face is this one, who on earth would want to spend well over 30k on a degree that in all probabilities will net you less income than someone who has spent 2k on a diploma!? When I have seen lots with the ST BSc having to complete massage courses, and lots with the SR BSc having to undertake personal training courses, to make themselves more competitive and employable, I ask myself why anyone would ever go down this route in the first place?
With the amount of effort certain PAs are making, to ensure that visible 'opportunities' exist purely for GST/GSR's, then I know that the degrees are in jeapardy. Its a shame that these opportunities all seem to be internships, as it doesnt put much value on the BSc.
:eek:haha well see i dont have a degree in maths:p brain not working right at mo just been on a very long bike ride, nearly 4hrs in this sun & heat:eek:
dont blame the sun! Maybe we both had the same Math teacher, mine was incredibly boring! :D:D
dont blame the sun! Maybe we both had the same Math teacher, mine was incredibly boring! :D:D
and perhaps you missed the English Lessons? 
degree
I have to say I completed a degree in a non medical/holistic field as a mature student a while ago. When I started I was terrified and was sure I would not be up to it. The reality in my experience is that you have to be extremely poor to achieve anything under a 2.2 - or even a 2.1 really. I found the standard no where near to what I was expecting. And if any student has any problems the university staff will bend over backwards to help.
However, I do think mature students have an advantage in all courses - either degree or diploma. We are motivated and there because we really want to learn the subject so perhaps will find it easier than an 18 year old. I think to achieve a good degree pass for an 18 year old just out of A levels is fantastic achievement with all the distractions, peer pressure and growing up to do at that age.
I am just starting out in holistic therapies so cannot at this stage compare the standards. But I would say the abilities of a mature student who achieves less than a 2.2 in a degree in a subject they were motivated to do would be questionable.
I think it is very clear that there are many opinions from many backgrounds on this subject, not just for sports therapy. All I am going to add now is, what suits one person wont suit another and some people will always go down one path rather than another.
I think that is something very obvious!
I think it is very clear that there are many opinions from many backgrounds on this subject, not just for sports therapy. All I am going to add now is, what suits one person wont suit another and some people will always go down one path rather than another.
I think that is something very obvious!
totally agree TT, however the issue as far as I see it is when a major professional organisations is telling its members and the wider profession that they only recognise degree entry to sports therapy.......................then advertise and run a diploma course.
they then run a top up degree programme with minimum 2 years clinical experience for entry, then allow students to progress from their own diploma to their own degree course with no clinical experience and only 10 days training. Therefore potentially with 25 days training they get a degree, including 3 days for induction and familiarisation of the Uni. and for the record those degree days are 10-12 and 2-4pm.
Hardly suprising they are now vindicating and promoting a full year unpaid internship to get experience.
just a whole bunch of double standards if you ask me, wonder if this will still happen when course fees raise to £9000, potentially £35k debt to work for nothing........... no brainer, I can see the diploma courses getting snapped up, and it wouldnt suprise me if these prices went up from next year also
in this case you decide "which is better, degree or diploma"
I can honestly see some uni's struggling to get students enrolled onto all but the most marketable courses in terms of job prospects. My local college has already had 3 times its normal applications.
regrds
another interesting debate will be now that the CMO of FA has publicly stated to work in pro football, everyone should have sports therapy training, and that includes Physios
BGFL
another interesting debate will be now that the CMO of FA has publicly stated to work in pro football, everyone should have sports therapy training, and that includes Physios
BGFL
great:rolleyes::(
the way things are going in the professional world of sport i think i'll forget about working in that area and stick with the private sector.:(
its hard enough trying to work with pro team, now they are just making it impossible and even if you do manage to get in you have to work for next to nothing.:eek:
the debate about dips or degree's ... i would have loved to have done a degree, but due to cost, location and having to pay for a mortgage put paid to all that, plus trying to get on to a degree course would have been almost impossible for someone like me, so the next best thing is Diploma's, they are a great way to retrain in to a profession that you love or have a huge interest in. they enable you to get employment or start your own business, and they also are great if you dont have the time to spend years learning a new skill. there are also many training providers that are located closer making it easier to learn.
yes degree's are great but so are diploma's as long as you learn what is required to give a good treatment. The way CPD's are now you have to keep learning anyway and you pick up new skills along the way.
i guess that many employers might miss out on very good therapist because they only have a diploma and not a degree, its best to look at them both with open eyes and on their own merits.
Right this minute there must be a few thousand students in an undergraduate position. rough guess, I have no actual idea!
I cant condone what the degree is doing, i.e. the quick pathways & also the diploma course, I think any form of credibility should come in the form of dropping the course now. My opinion anyway.
in terms of the FA, what would the course content be in that case as even to sports therapists it is confusing, god knows what would happen of then physios needed additional training. Presumable they would do a diploma, however would this be affected if there were stats regs come in?
any news on any consultation as it is now nearly 3 months since the document from the HPC came out?
Right this minute there must be a few thousand students in an undergraduate position. rough guess, I have no actual idea!
I cant condone what the degree is doing, i.e. the quick pathways & also the diploma course, I think any form of credibility should come in the form of dropping the course now. My opinion anyway.
in terms of the FA, what would the course content be in that case as even to sports therapists it is confusing, god knows what would happen of then physios needed additional training. Presumable they would do a diploma, however would this be affected if there were stats regs come in?
any news on any consultation as it is now nearly 3 months since the document from the HPC came out?
I bet the undergraduates cant wait to get qualified and get access to those unpaid internships the SST and BASRat are pushing as vital to gain hands on experience, and the new £27k course fees will make it quite an investment
The SST have consulted with BASRaT, they seem to believe that is the end of their remit. Perhaps the membership of SST should be asking some searching questions of their PA, one of which is the title of this thread?
Graduate Physios could either do a Masters or Post Grad diploma in sports therapy, I am sure sportstherapy will fill in more details as I believe he is involved in training Physios in some capacity.
regards
BGFL
was just looking through facebook and found this from a seemingly upset SST member ?
"Im a member of the society of sports therapists and also get the BASES magazines sent to me. This is a quote from the most recent. "The HPC will no longer consider adding new professions - not just BASES but others who are in the process of developing an application." It also says that basically the new coalition gover...nment dont want to regulate anything in the health sector and want to promote voluntary registration to balance quality and reduce costs.
At least no one is getting regulated!
P.S. society of sports therapists sort out your amateurish website and newsletters! its a joke! "
I kind of feel like posting a big
I TOLD YOU SO,
but I dont think I will
regards
BGFL
On slightly lighter note I have been liaising with colleges of FE looking to fill the gap left by the expensive £27K ST degrees by offering a progression route from certificate and diploma, and was told that Lancaster university are being advised by someone who assures my contact that BASRAT are the lead body for Sports Therapy, I wonder if their relationship with SST has broken down ????????????
at least people are finally realising that stat regs are dead in the water, as we have been saying for years. At least now it cant be used as a marketing tool!!
BASRaT are not lead body for sports therapists, never have been, never will be.