RE: Accupressure

Hi Patsy,

My understanding is that it works on the same points of the body as accupuncture, but rather than sticking in needles it involves applying pressure with the fingertips. Any more than that I'm sorry I just don't know. I do know however that EFT works on the meridian system by tapping on accupressure points. 😉

Love and Reiki Hugs

RE: Accupressure

Hi Giles,

Thanks for that bit of info. I kept looking at this forum and wondering what accupressure was. It sounds a lot more appealing than accupuncture (apologies to the accupuncturists out there!)

Love,
Patsy.
xxxxxx

RE: Accupressure

Hi Patsy
Acupressure is the westernised name for Tuina (pronounced Twee-nah), which is one of the branches of Chinese Medicine (the others being acupuncture, herbs, qi gong, and surgery (not used any more)).
Of course there are many sub-branches from these main ones.

Tuina is a complete system of medicine in its own right, like acupuncture. It takes as long to learn (the theory, diagnosis and treatment principles being the same as acupuncture) and whereas acupuncturists learn to needle effectively, tuina practitioners learn to use their finger to the same effect. Generally people in the UK train in acupuncture first and then learn Tuina as post-graduates in a further year or so of study.

You might not think it is more appealling than acupuncture if you actually had it!!! At least I can make the needling painless. Tuina you definitely feel!!;)

Commonly, I think acupressure is a term used by anyone wanting to press a thumb into an acupuncture point because it's "good for sleep" or whatever, without any sound understanding of traditional Chinese diagnosis or treatment principles. This is a world away from what Tuina practitioners are capable of doing, some of which is frankly mind-boggling.

To all intents and purposes, Shiatsu is the japanese version of Tuina. I hope the shiatsu practitioners amongst us don't object too much to that simplification 😀

Sorry if you knew all that already
Aragorn

RE: Accupressure

I will be goingto a Tuina intor week-end in October, so I will be able to comment afterwards about similarities with Shatsu.
Shitasu litterally means "finger pressure". But about any part of the body can be used to apply pressure. Try working GB 30 with an elbow... Magical! Just pointy enough to really get in there!

Aragorn, painless needling? How do you manage on points like Spl. 6 or Liv. 3?

Artemis

RE: Accupressure

Never mind Sp 6 and Liv 3!! Getting it painless on Kid 1 or Bl 67 is the trick.;)
I use a guide tube, good quality needles, lots of practice, and above all have the desire to make it painless. Where the mind goes...;)

Enjoy your Tuina weekend.

Aragorn

RE: Accupressure

hmmm i could see SP6 and even Liv3 taking needles ok but actually, when you think of BL67 and K1... eww!!!

i really must try acupuncture sometime, although i am convinced that i wont like having needles hanging off me, so i already have a mental block on it!

going back to acupressure courses, yes... big subject. it isnt just about learning the acu points and meridians. it encompasses the whole TCM way, 5 elements and all that goes with it.

i did a short course and only scratched the surface. but it gave me some knowledge to bring to my other therapies and so enhance them. if we are treating holistically, then using any tools of other modalities can only be of benefit to our clients.

RE: Accupressure

Intention, yes of course!

Artemis

RE: Accupressure

ORIGINAL: ro§ie

... if we are treating holistically, then using any tools of other modalities can only be of benefit to our clients.

I don't agree, if I've understood you right.
If we are certain that we can help bring about change through our treatments, then why must this only be change for the better?
Using acu-points in a way that is contrary to the diagnosis of the client will, and does, make them feel worse!
I don't believe that incorporating the use of acu-points into other modalities necessarily ensures a greater benefit to the client, if those points are being used on the basis of a short course.
I would suggest that they may generate change for the better, no change, or change for the worse, all of which would be generally out of the control of the practitioner.

Any thoughts?
Aragorn

RE: Accupressure

hmmm... i dont know if you think i meant, mix up the therapies and give them a bit of everything! no, thats not what i meant.

what i was getting at, is that to be aware of and have knowledge of other ways of treating, can only help us to give our clients best advice and best treatment.

for example... i could be doing a back massage. i know when doing a back massage i will be working over the bladder meridian. i also know that in my back massage, i do petrissage work on that meridian. so, if the client has tenderness on certain points, i can build a picture and know a little more of what is going on. it doent mean i will then start working in an acupressure way, if you see what i mean.

i incorporate acupoint work into my reflexology treatments, particularly on pregnancy related issues... and i do feel that knowing the acu points to avoid and how to use them when i do, is of benefit to my client!

does that explain it better?

RE: Accupressure

Hi Rosie
Sort of a little clearer!!;)

If massaging the Bladder channel, for example, what are you trying to achieve in doing that? Is there already some sense that the Bladder channel needs some kind of work done on it? If so, how was this diagnosed?
Is your intent to promote the function of the Bladder, or to clear pathogens from the Bladder? How is this principle arrived at? If there is simply an awareness that a back massage will touch on the Bladder channel, does that really mean anything therapeutically?
Just curious, by the way. I do find it very interesting how people use related systems when doing bodywork.

In the pregnancy example, knowing which acupuncture points to avoid is a very good thing! Is this known to you as a part of your reflexology training, or did you learn it elsewhere? When you do use acu-points in pregnancy, how are you making the diagnosis that leads to the point selection? It would be interesting to hear an example...?

I'm not sure my last post was completely off the point. I suppose it boils down to "is a little knowledge a dangerous thing" in the treatment room? And that goes for all of us, not just regarding acu-points. For myself, I would worry that incorporating a little bit of something I am not fully trained in might have unknown, unexplained or undesirable effects!
Is that something we should strive to avoid as practitioners?

Aragorn

RE: Accupressure

hi aragorn,

hmm you are still missing my (acupressure) point 😉

when i do a back massage, by coincidence i will be working over acupoints... agreed? seeing as acupoints exist all over the body! i dont specifically work on these points, but it can give me an indication of my clients condition, or possible problems... lets not forget, i cannot diagnose and wouldnt try to. but getting a "bigger" picture can help me determine my clients overall health, yes?

as for reflexology, yes, i did do further training in maternity issues and this incorporates acupoints known to have effects (SP6, BL67, BL60 etc). useful points to know, to avoid and to use!

incidentally, K1 is the same as the solar plexus point in reflexology, so again, useful to know... as an indicator, nothing more.

so i am not incorporating, as such, just using knowledge to gain insight and put together a better overview of my client.

dont panic... i am not gonna be nicking any of your clients any time soon!;)

RE: Accupressure

Hi Rosie
Thanks for the clarification. It's OK, I'm not panicking! Just interested.

The "Back-Shu" points (the acu-points on the inner Bladder channel that correspond to each of the major organs) can be used diagnosically by an acupuncturist (and presumably a Tuina practitioner too). We feel for tenderness, softness, how much the point gives or resists. This can give us information about the energetic state of an Organ - how "Full" or "Empty" it is.
The "Front-Mu" points can be used in the same way (the equivalent points but on the torso).

I am just curious whether you may be picking up this kind of information from your clients' backs, perhaps even unconsciously? It sounds like you are an excellent bodyworker, with good sensitivity. Are you interested in doing more energetic work like Tuina or Shiatsu?

Aragorn

RE: Accupressure

hi aragorn,

at the moment, i cant be doing any more courses!! i cant be a periennial student... although, of course, we always are learning :eek:.

i did the, what i would call, introduction to acupressure course, with a view to incorporating and getting a fuller knowledge. i never intended it as a stand alone therapy. i then realised how much more involved it was, as i say, using TCM, 5 elements etc etc... much much more to it.

my bodywork skills are massage, aromatherapy, reflexology and reiki... and as i say, i can use acupressure and some kinesiology knowledge too.

of course, shiatsu would be as massive a subject as tuina, so not at this stage, thanks ;o).

as i teach massage and reflexology too, i just think its also good to have background info to pass on to students to wet their appetites for further studying... and so that they can see how inter-related our therapies are.

🙂 btw... thanks for the compliment... i'd like to think i am a good bodyworker too.

RE: Accupressure

Hi Aragorn,
In Shiatsu we do use the Shu (and Mu) points as part of the diagnosis. Although I tend to use the Hara area as my main diagnostic tool. I always include work on the Bladder meridian along the spine (both lines of it, but the outer one is seen as part of the Kidney meridian in Zen Shiatsu) because I find it a great way help balance the overall energy. Hard to describe in words... By rebalancing the energy in that part of the meridian, and because the Shu points do connect to the meridians, I rebalance the whole.

Artemis

RE: Accupressure

Hi Rosie
I'm sure you are an inspiration to your students:)
Studying Shiatsu or Tuina would indeed be a big undertaking, and it sounds like you have your hands full at the moment;)

Hi Artemis
Are you familiar with a 5-element acupuncture treatment called AE (Aggressive Energy)?
I wonder if it is in any way akin to your Bladder channel rebalancing treatment. It basically taps into each of the Yin organs via the Shu points and can be seen as a kind of general Reset button treatment, or perhaps an energetic detox might be a better description!
It can be a very profound treatment, and typically wouldn't be done more than once per patient.

Aragorn

RE: Accupressure

Are you familiar with a 5-element acupuncture treatment called AE (Aggressive Energy)?

Never heard of it. Any description somewhere?
What I do is going down the meridian, pressing with thumbs on the points. Time, depth and pressure adapted for each point. Then I may go over some part -or all- of the chanel again if I felt that an area was very reactive. I stop once there are no points that are "crazilly reactive" anymore. Or when I feel that "that's as much change as I will get today".

Artemis

RE: Accupressure

Hi Artemis
Thanks for the description. It is absolutely a different thing to the AE treatment I was talking about, but I just wondered if it taps into the same kinda thing. Who knows, at the end of the day;) Not me, that's for sure.

AE will only likely be described in fairly recent 5 element acupuncture books.
Brief description:
Needles are placed very superficially bilaterally at Bl 13, 14, 19, 20, 23, along with "test" needles that are inserted in the same way into non-acupuncture points nearby. If the client has AE present the area around the acu-point needle will go red. It is quite a distinct marking. Bl 15 is added if Bl 14 goes red. The area around the "test" needles will remain normal. The test needles are like a "control" to see if the patient's skin is just reacting that way to the presence of a needle.
The needles are left in place until the redness disappears. This can take anything from 10 minutes to over a hour, and sometimes the treatment needs to be repeated if the appointment time runs out!
Once AE has been "cleared" in this way, it tends not to return if the patient continues having acupuncture (or another similar energetic medicine).
AE is described as a "block" to treatment. In other words, if it is present in a patient and it is not cleared, other energetic interventions (including regular acupuncture) will not work as effectively. This is sometimes demonstrated when a patient who seemed to be doing OK suddenly plateaux, literally as if our treatments are being blocked by something. (There can be other reasons for this as well BTW!)

Well, there's quite a lot more to it in terms of cause and potential treatment responses, but I don't want to bore you!

Best wishes
Aragorn

RE: Accupressure

Hi Aragorn,

I have clients who duirng the first treatment seem to be reacting energetically even less than a piece of wood! Like if their energy system will not let me in. It can take a treatment or two before I am "let in".

Artemis

RE: Accupressure

Hi Artemis

I suspect this is typical of much bodywork, as there is new physical contact taking place, and a process of "checking each other out" that fades after a few treatments as trust and confidence builds.

With acupuncture, I believe the most profound changes can take place when the needling occurs at the greatest moment of rapport between the two people.

Aragorn

RE: Accupressure

A friend told me of getting acupuncture and needles being "ejected" out of some points. They just wouldn't stay in! Wonder if there is anything similar here as with not being let in with pressure?

Artemis

RE: Accupressure

No idea! I've never come across this phenomenon. I think it must be rare! Would certainly freak me out [&:]
I seem to have taken this thread a bit off-topic. Sorry.

Aragorn

RE: Accupressure

I came from Asia, where good Tui Na therapists can be found, and if lucky, relatively affordable.

I have personally benefitted from Thai Massage and Tui Na. For my fibromyalgia, back pain and arthritis, I have tried many variants of massage (swedish, Bali, Javanese, aromatherapy, deept tissue, etc etc), but the only really really impressive one that I had was Tui Na. (no offense to non Tui Na therapists ;), Tuina happens to work particularly well fo rmy conditions).

From my experience, a good Tui Na therapists, can produce as good an effect as acupunture (in fact for me it is better!)

I went to my first Tuina session, tottally sceptical. I just happened to be having chronic cough, and teh cough worsens all the fibro points (I did not know I had fibro then) on me, esp chest and shoulder areas. I was desperate and just tried on a co-worker's recommendation- more like trying to give in to her persuasion, actually.

One of the most impressive thing she ever did to me was five minutes into my session, she told me that she thinks my menstrual cycles is irregular, and I had blockage in many points around my back and pelvic areas. She told me she would unblock it, and I my menses should resume with less pain within a few days.

The next day, my menses started. I had one of the most painless cycles.

Oh ya, my cough improved quickly over the next few days, after 1/2 of painful work on certain points on my back.

She is also the person who first warned me of PCOS, fibro etc etc. She is so spot on everytime, that I was "converted". My fibro was under control under her care, but I am in trouble again after she retired. ALthough her "cupping"- "baguan" sessions left me sore with lots of ugly marks, I just carried on because she was good!!!

I am looking for a well-traiined an experienced Tui Na therapist. If anyone knows of someone good with fibro, PCOS and rheumatoid arthritis, please let me know.

FYI, she spent 3 years training full-time under masters in Hong Kong. She told me that they spent a lot of time, learning about all the TCM meridians, and also trained in "basic" orthopathic manipulations (chinese style). After graduation, she worked under her teachers for 8 more years before branching out.

After she "retired", I tried a few other therapists,and I must say there is a BIG differnce betwen those who were in a few months of courses and those with comprehensinve training (YEARS) in china or hong kong.

I do encourage you all to go for a proper course! It makes a difference

RE: Accupressure

I am a Qualified Acupressurist and nearly a Shiatsu tuina practicioner. I have a Client who, suffers from fybromyalga, Lupus erythmotosas (lantent) Symptoms memory impairment, all functional joints in either rotary or swing function suffering inflamation. Water retention, Cognitive "fuzzy head, muzzy sort of feeling". Basically she was a mess. We had the usual, doctor assessment and permission for acu treatment. My assessment included the use of the five elements The Noon miday lay and the mother and son principles The assessment of Yin and Yang points which helped to pick up on tender points and with cross correlation a pattern emerged. This pattern of internal organ elements was than refered back to diagnosis symptoms. The origion of these symptoms I.E. Liver- which in turn corresponded to the T.C.M. Diognosis thus the principles of my treatment than engadged with the client and medical concent. This lady is now symptom free and is leading a fully functional life with only a top up treatment every two months. Not bad for a course that only lasted a few months eh?

ORIGINAL: Aragorn

Hi Artemis
Thanks for the description. It is absolutely a different thing to the AE treatment I was talking about, but I just wondered if it taps into the same kinda thing. Who knows, at the end of the day;) Not me, that's for sure.

AE will only likely be described in fairly recent 5 element acupuncture books.
Brief description:
Needles are placed very superficially bilaterally at Bl 13, 14, 19, 20, 23, along with "test" needles that are inserted in the same way into non-acupuncture points nearby. If the client has AE present the area around the acu-point needle will go red. It is quite a distinct marking. Bl 15 is added if Bl 14 goes red. The area around the "test" needles will remain normal. The test needles are like a "control" to see if the patient's skin is just reacting that way to the presence of a needle.
The needles are left in place until the redness disappears. This can take anything from 10 minutes to over a hour, and sometimes the treatment needs to be repeated if the appointment time runs out!
Once AE has been "cleared" in this way, it tends not to return if the patient continues having acupuncture (or another similar energetic medicine).
AE is described as a "block" to treatment. In other words, if it is present in a patient and it is not cleared, other energetic interventions (including regular acupuncture) will not work as effectively. This is sometimes demonstrated when a patient who seemed to be doing OK suddenly plateaux, literally as if our treatments are being blocked by something. (There can be other reasons for this as well BTW!)

Well, there's quite a lot more to it in terms of cause and potential treatment responses, but I don't want to bore you!

Best wishes
Aragorn

It is actually BL13,14,18,20,23 and then BL 15. Test needle after 14, test needke after 20, and after 23.

18 is the liver, and 19 is GB, and it is all the Yin points and not the yang.

Also considering the firewall I would still needle BL15, even if BL14 does not experience an erythema. As the energy on each side of fire is it's own.