Any doubt / question about Islam ?

RE: Any doubt / question about Islam ?

Hi Tulip, I haven't got any questions this time, but I just wanted to say thanks for doing this thread, I have followed your posts in the "Muslims, how do you read these verses?" thread with interest & have very much enjoyed, appricated and learnt by whats been said
Thanks again
love
Amy
x

RE: Any doubt / question about Islam ?

Thank you for the confirmation Tulip

Divine Love

RE: Any doubt / question about Islam ?

Dear Tulip,

Al-Salam Alykum = peace been upon you

I have heard that greeting so many times (my best friend in Africais Muslim) but never thought about the deeper meaning of the words - to me it was more like 'hello'. Thank youfor being a teacher to me today!

I will be popping onto this thread to see what you and your friends have to say. Thank you.

Jo

RE: Any doubt / question about Islam ?

I don't have any doubts about Islam in general and I think it good for you to start this thread. Various world religions have gone through periods of being used for political ends, and while Islam as a real thing may be above it all, the fact is that terrorism is being conducted in the name of Islam. It would be simply wonderful if Islam itself could deal with that and bring moderation in. The terrorists call themselves 'Muslim', and there are many of them, so much hangs IMO on how Islam in general deals with that in the present day - obviously without wanting or requesting outside intervention. But without intervention (not that I am on any side here) how were things going to pan out? - Afghanistan, for example, was completely in control of the Taliaban.

I welcome the thread but TBH non-Muslims need much assurance from here on...

Ah - but politics cannot be discussed here, so I percieve that you will not be able to answer in depth.

P.S. Added later: in fact since politics cannot be discussed, and frankly Islam in the modern day is involved with politics, like it or not, I am not sure how you can reply and will respect it if you do not. I really don't see a way around this, as for non-Muslims most questions right now are going to be political TBH. Hmm. It may then be that dialogue has to be quite limited.

Much love,

venetian

RE: Any doubt / question about Islam ?

There are still a number of nice and useful things which can be discussed and which are not political. May I 'kick off'?

(All I write is in the understanding that I am only addresing a certain strand of Islam, and other Muslims may disagree.)

How is Mohammad perceived in relation to other spiritual people who have lived in this world? We know that he received words which became the Q'uran, but he never so far as I recall worked miracles such as Jesus. Rather, he initially spread Islam by taking towns and cities by force through warfare. I don't say this BTW in order to be contentious, for I actually see how this may have been necessary. But it isn't a good starting record as compared to other saints.

Second to this, and similar to it, I have never quite understood 'and Mohammad is his Prophet' if this means that M is better than any who came before or that none should come after. This to be very frank smacks of an inability to dialogue and of absolutism, whichI know many Muslims in fact do not hold to. It leads to contention.

So what of, say, the Vedas, which seem IMHO to be FAR deeper in explaining things and how one should live one's life than is the Q'uran? And if M is 'the prophet', is this taken to mean that no-one else will come after, and that there will be no further revelations from God? For this very, very few people will accept, quite frankly, on this forum.

But I ask with respect and love, in order to understand your culture better. 🙂

Venetian

RE: Any doubt / question about Islam ?

Hello Tulip,

My question is - is it true that the prophet Mohammed was a very young man (about 21?) when the Angel Gabrielle visited him and gave him dictation?

Love and peace,

Judy

RE: Any doubt / question about Islam ?

I am truly blessed to be close friends with a few muslims for some years one being a sister in more ways than one.

They struggled with true understanding and integration of submission and surrender to God; so I worked with them to help them to reconcile this. Complete abandonement of human will, desires, needs and wants so that they could truly surrender to divine self and become one with God. Of course then 'God's will' comes into play and their questions about this and how this works.

Through experience it is clear that when it is Gods will it comes to you; so then how do Muslims reconcile taking up arms against others, is this not human will ? How can they possibly justify creating contention in the name of the most merciful and compassionate Allah?

My beloved friends are some of the most peaceful, loving and compassionate people I know; one is a doctor and the other was prepared to be a human shield to stop others being hurt. A more recent friend announced he now accepts the universal Christ within man, woman, child and himself; this was enlightening bearing in mind he was observing/participating in Ramadan at the time of this revelation.

Without doubt the Sufi's understand the relationship with God better than most from most religions. How interested are Muslims in Sufisim? Are Muslim scholars re-looking at interpretation of your Holy Books?

Divine Love

RE: Any doubt / question about Islam ?

ORIGINAL: Sacredstar

It also begs the question of how 'fighting' can be justified in any context by the 'most merciful and compassionate Allah'

Well, I tried to explain this as much as I could. I know that looking to the issue as a first glance seems not convincing. Therefore, I highly recommend that you think of what I've written in my third reply ..once, twice and more times, put yourself in the situation and then it will be more convincing. Thinking about such issues needs deep and repetive thinking, looking to all possibilites/difficulties and to the future. I hope saying this doesn't bother you, if you have other specific question about the same issue please feel free to ask.

ORIGINAL: Sacredstar

May I ask Tulip are original texts being reviewed by Muslim scholars in the same way that Christian and Jewish texts are by scholars?

I'm so sorry to say I didn't get the question. please forgive my poor knowledge about Christian and Jewish scholars. What I could say is that, there is no difference in reading Quran between public Muslims & scholars. Moreover, scholars have the knowledge for further explanation of some verses and Prophet's speech. If you could explain more, I will be my pleasure to explain. Sorry again.

ORIGINAL: Sacredstar

Religion Drips with Blood

Thank God he has 10 million followers.

May his name always be remembered as one that showed the way............

One that did it with purity of love, truth, understanding and the heart of conscience.

To be honest, it my first time I see this person. I searched in the Arabic section of the site and amazed !
He belongs to another sect of Islam "Ahmadiyya", I read about their beliefs in their site and found that there are many differences and things that contradicts with the Quran itself. As I mentioned above, "Sunna and Jamaa" is the righteous Islam. Any sect other than this will have some differences. For example, they claim that Muhammad (peace been upon him) is not the last Prophet. Moreover, this person claims he is the Prophet. One shouldbe more careful, because other sects does not give the correct beliefs and concepts as Islam's

Regards,

RE: Any doubt / question about Islam ?

To be honest, it my first time I see this person. I searched in the Arabic section of the site and amazed !

He belongs to another sect of Islam "Ahmadiyya", I read about their beliefs in their site and found that there are many differences and things that contradicts with the Quran itself.

Do they contradict or they a more accurate interpretation?

As I mentioned above, "Sunna and Jamaa" is the righteous Islam.

Would that mean more orthodox? the Ahmadiyya appear more liberal and seem to sit in the middle of the orthodox and the mystical Sufi's.

Any sect other than this will have some differences. For example, they claim that Muhammad (peace been upon him) is not the last Prophet. Moreover, this person claims he is the Prophet. One  should be more careful, because other sects does not give the correct beliefs and concepts as Islam's.

Most spiritual people would agree that Muhammad certainly was not the last Prophet; although I would say he was the last prophet to be the foundation of a world religion. So again it does come down to interpretation. If Muhammad was told he was the last prophet it then begs the question did he ask in what context this divine revelation was set? Questions in these circumstances are imperative for people to acheive absolute clarity of the intent of the revelation. Otherwise revelation can be very misleading.

I'm so sorry to say I didn't get the question. please forgive my poor knowledge about Christian and Jewish scholars. What I could say is that, there is no difference in reading Quran between public Muslims & scholars. Moreover, scholars have the knowledge for further explanation of some verses and Prophet's speech. If you could explain more, I will be my pleasure to explain. Sorry again.

No problem. Jewish and Christian scholars are reviewing original texts and original translations and are providing new texts based upon the originals. I realise there is a difference with Islam because my understanding is that it never changed from the Arabic. However, Muslims tell me that to truly appreciate the poetry of your Holy Books one must read them in Arabic; because many of the words just do not translate accurately into English because we do not have equivalent words to express the Arabic poetry in our language.

 
Divine Love

RE: Any doubt / question about Islam ?

ORIGINAL: Divine Love

Do they contradict or they a more accurate interpretation?

Yes, they contradict some of the main beliefs that were stated by God in Quran and Sunnah (the main two sources of Islam)
Just of what I've seen in the site these are main things :
1- They claim that Prophet Muhammad is not the last prophet, while Prophet Muhmmad (peace been upon him) said that he is the last Prophet .

2- They claim that Jesus (peace been upon him) is dead, while it is stated by God:


[157] That they said (in boast), "We killed Al-Masih 'Isa the son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.
[158] Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
(Surah : 4)
*Note :Isa , in Arabic , is Jesus .


One could say, that these are very few things, but when believing in something, we have to believe in it completely. Yeah, they are Muslims, but how they could be in the righteous path if they disagree in essential things in the Islamic beliefs .Islam says that Prophet Muhammad is the last prophet sent by God and they're saying 'No !'.
It is not the case about other spiritual people, we are talking here about Islam, and a true Muslim could not contradict what Islam says : )

Would that mean more orthodox? the Ahmadiyya appear more liberal and seem to sit in the middle of the orthodox and the mystical Sufi's.

I meant that they are, not like any sect, following exactly the Quran and Sunnah and do not contradict them. If someone wants to know, study or follow 'true' Islam, he/she should stick to them.

If Muhammad was told he was the last prophet it then begs the question did he ask in what context this divine revelation was set? Questions in these circumstances are imperative for people to acheive absolute clarity of the intent of the revelation. Otherwise revelation can be very misleading.

Prophet Muhammad was Arabian, and Islam started in the Arabian Gulf. But that does not mean that it is dedicated to Arabs only. Quran says:
[107] We sent thee not, but as a mercy for all creatures.
[108] Say: "What has come to me by inspiration is that your God is One God: will ye therefore bow to His Will (in Islam)?"
(Surah : 21)

This divine revelation, as the verse shows, is neither complicated nor impossible for one to believe. It just lies in very straight forward idea: Believe in God as the one and Only God and worship Him only. From this idea, many braches comes like believing i

RE: Any doubt / question about Islam ?

ORIGINAL: Divine Love
However, Muslims tell me that to truly appreciate the poetry of your Holy Books one must read them in Arabic; because many of the words just do not translate accurately into English because we do not have equivalent words to express the Arabic poetry in our language.

Regarding the translation of Quran, it is really difficult to translate accurately. One reason is that Arabic is not like any other language. It is a huge language that any word has many synonyms, so Quran may use a synonym for a certain word that doesn't exist in English. Therefore, a perfect simulation is missed.
The other reason is that, Quran is revealed in very "rich" Arabic, that no one even the Arabic linguists, experts or poets cannot write in the same level as Quran's level. Also, the language of Quran is elegant. It implements many paradoxes, metaphors, sound devices puns and use the words in the perfect position in a very sophisticated manner. Not like any article or poem, it is a language that attracts both hearts and minds. I'm not exaggerating if I say that we, as Arabs, always read Quran with wonder and enjoyment of the rich language and meanings it contains.

For these reasons, the Quran is considered as miracle. God says:

[88] Say: "If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur-an they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support.
(Surah: 17)

RE: Any doubt / question about Islam ?

From the: Muslims, how do you read these verses? thread

Dear Tulip can you tell us what evidence does the Muslim religion provide to substantiante their belief that Jesus survived the crucifixion and lived a normal life on earth?

Many thanks

kim xx

It is my pleasure to illustrate Islamic beliefs about Jesus (peace been upon him), but before I start talking about the evidences, I would like to ask you whether you believe that Jesus is a God, son of God or a Prophet ? This would be strange but it helps me in what perspective I should talk : ) I know that not all Christians believe that Jesus is a God, and therefore I prefer to know your thoughts about Jesus, if you don't mind.
Regards

RE: Any doubt / question about Islam ?

[link= http://www.healthypages.net/forum/showProfile.asp?memid=12574 ]ameliajane[/link]
I'm so glad to hear that my poor English is understandable, how if I've heard that you were interested ? 🙂
Thanks a lot ..
Dana

[link= http://www.healthypages.net/forum/showProfile.asp?memid=19513 ]Divine Love[/link],[link= http://www.healthypages.net/forum/showProfile.asp?memid=18228 ]Jobelle[/link]
thanks; please don't hesitate to ask about anything you would like to know about Islam.
Regards,

[link= http://www.healthypages.net/forum/showProfile.asp?memid=11125 ]venetian[/link]
You have kicked-off many things 😉Let's take them one by one

Well, I understand that politics should not be discussed in this forum, but I just have small comments.
Islam is the most moderate religion, and does not wait for someone to prove this moderation, it all needs clarifying the unknown & misunderstood points. Moreover, moderation in Islam covers also issues regarding human life. Between spiritually and materialistic, Islam asks human to act in his life. For example, it appreciate asceticism but without harming or living a miserable life (in fact, Islam forbidden harming of destroying person's life).Moderation and balancing in everything isan important thing in Islam.God says:

[143] Thus have We made of you an Ummat* justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves; and we appointed the Qibla to which thou wast used, only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels (from the Faith). Indeed it was (a change) momentous, except to those guided by Allah. And never would Allah make your faith of no effect. For Allah is to all people most surely full of Kindness, Most Merciful
(Surah : 2)
*Ummah/Ummat : means nation, and it is referring here to Muslims in general.

On the other hand, I understand that some Muslims' mistaken actions give bad impressions about Islam. Taliban, for example, has many mistakes and non-Muslims think that his country was a typical Islamic country. I could just give one small exampleabout Taliban (not political one 😉) : He didn't give the full-right of education for women, and Islam could never say so. In contrary, Islam emphasizes oneducation for both men and women, and in Quran, there are more than 850 positions about knowledge and seeking knowledge.

🙂

RE: Any doubt / question about Islam ?

Thanks, Dana.

Islam is causing many problems in the world right now - or what people call 'Islam', as you say. Perhaps overall it is going through an unfortunate time (in the violent nations) just as, say, Christianity has a terrible track-record on human welfare and on peace a few centuries ago, such as during the Spanish Inquisition and during the conquest of South America. So hopefully it will 'come out the other end' of this time period in better overall shape, just as Christianity did.

Things seem to go badly when politics and the leadership of nations is tied in with the religion. (When the religion rules politically.) In that respect, the separation ofpolitics and Islam such as we find in Turkey may be a good example.

People such as yourself obviously help to make the good changes possible.

Yours,

Venetian

RE: Any doubt / question about Islam ?

Islam is causing many problems in the world right now

I think you will find that many of the problems in the world and their route causes are a little more complex than just saying that Islam is the cause.

It is people, goverments, bad choices and mistakes made in the past on many sides that cause the troubles of today. Also the problems we are so aware of today are not all the same, but many of them involve people who happen to be Muslim..there are a lot of Muslims in the world.

Try to remember that many are not involved in troubles any more than non muslims are, many have no violent intentions at all.

I think it would be more helpful to refer to murderers as murderers and good, peaceful people as just that.

It is good to understand what is written in religious books and if you wish to look for things that sound on the surface as awkward..there is plenty of stoning to death etc in other popular books.

I am a muslim, moderate if that is the label many would apply, a peaceful person, a normal person, I am friends with people of all religions..that is not difficult is it?

I ca tell you that Islam is a peaceful, noble and loving religion, it is not about violence, threat and bullying.

An important quality of Islam is to be modest, and the way you dress is a small aspect of that, it is about how you feel and behave and how you treat others. Modesty, self respect and respect for others, it is the same struggle to loose the ego, it is the same spiritual path that we all try to walk.

Yes, Islam is for all people and at all times, within Islam like other religions there is in our Qu'ran much reference to things going on t the time, ways of dealing with things, examples and understanding of our prophets time in history. The spirit and the theme applies to all, though we are supposed to make decisions also according to the time and place we live...Islam recognises change and a need to move with time.

So, I think it is perhaps more important and valuable to understand the spirit of Islam if you are new to learning about it, maybe before getting lost in examining small chunks of text in isolation.

You see, we can argue all day about which translation is right or wrong and maybe this is where some of the ugly stufff comes from, people changing bist to suit their own argument.

There is much more simple stuff within Islam which should be beyond doubt amoungst muslims and should be shown to others.

Not so long ago islam was the fastest growing religion, especially amoungst westerners, the religion became popular amounsgt educated, thinking, intelligent and mostly adults, a lot from the UK and USA.

Why? In islam we do not tend to sell religion or knock on doors or advertise it, this is because we believe that Allah has decided who will become muslim, it is a choice for an individual to then take. You are only really a muslim if that is the path you want to take.

Otherwise it is better to be something else, I and many others see it that Allah made other religions and it is right for people to follow them. Not anyone elses concern...Allh knows best.

This may contradict other things you have heard, especially in relation to the spreading of the message...it is my understanding that we are to spread the message by example and answering questions when asked as best we can. I was taught that it was good to share Islam, help someone to learn if it is right for them, it is a good thing to teach of islam, but only they want to hear about it.

Example has to be the best way to spread a message...as I said not long ago islam was spreading fast and many people embracing it. it goes to show some disgraceful examples have more recently lead islam to be feared and misunderstood again!

But for the record, in Islam we are taught that it is a sin to even hurt someone's feelings on account of their s

RE: Any doubt / question about Islam ?

Hi Hal,

I do understand and agree. I was using the term 'Islam' to mean anyone who says they are Muslim, whether they practice true Islamic lives or not - that's what my reference to the history of Christianity was intended to convey. Those 'Christians' went to S. America and basically 'converted' by death ... but in fact it was the Church itself at the time.

So I simply meant that - yes, it's not simple I agree - but there appears to be a problem in many Islamic nations right now. Iran invented the suicide bomber, and given a free election, Palestine has voted in .... ah, but better leave the politics. 😉

So I meant that like you I hope that true Islam gets a grip again in nations such as Iran, Afghanistan, Palestine, etc. And certainly it doesn't mean that some major world problems are not caused by non-Muslims!

Christianity had a very, very dark time, undeniably, and largely came out of that. My point is that Islam (all who call themselves part of that) may be in such a time also - on the whole.

On a previous thread Sufism was referred to as maybe being one great way to heal these problems.

Yours, 🙂

Venetian

RE: Any doubt / question about Islam ?

Hi,

Yeah, I know what you mean and pretty much agree.

I do not think Sufism will solve the problem...it is more of a personal thing and politics are needed to solve problems of many individuals when they have to somehow live together.

I am feeling it is not the religion that causes the murder and hatred, it is a scapegoat, an excuse, also a useful smokescreen...take attention away from where it really should be given.

I think maybe it is time for those of us who wish for peace and who respect human life and liberty to stop following this game and trap of theirs..they who use religion to excuse their ways. We don't need to see what they want to show us, we need to see a situastion for what it really is.

Murder is murder, no matter what religion the murderer says they are, and in the course of seeking justice, religion is nothing to do with it.

I think it would be better to look at the situation and leave the religion out of it..it is easy to say as a sort of rathr pathetic defence of muslims today..well..just look at what Christians did in the crusades..doesn't help at all.

Those who murdered others in the crusades were murderers and did wrong, yep, religion was their excuse but it doesn't wash does it??

Christianity and Islam both teach that killing is wrong, love and kindness is what we are asked to do.

The more we run round in circles arguing what this and that means the more we seem to miss the point.

We surely all know what we are meant to be doing.

Sorry, i am getting worked up now!!!

it is just so frustrating..you see i am muslim, but I am a person and i have no reason to fight or kill and I don't like it happening to others...never mind their religion..person is person...God loves all people...it is simple isn't it??

The first lesson that the religions seem to all teach is to kick out the ego so that one can progress spiritually..you know, travel to the light...to not think you are better than others...to be kind and to have love in your heart?

RE: Any doubt / question about Islam ?

I sure can understand you getting worked up, Hal!

V

RE: Any doubt / question about Islam ?

Dear Hal

Yes I agree with you.

What do you say to the Islamic fundamentalists that state that Islam will take over all, and that they will not rest until all are converted? This was certainly the case in Jerusalem recently on the Richard Dawkins programme. I found it all very sad, brother against brother.

Divine Love

RE: Any doubt / question about Islam ?

Hi All,

What do you say to the Islamic fundamentalists that state that Islam will take over all, and that they will not rest until all are converted?

I hope that from what I have previously written that you can already guess my response to them would not be favourable.

In my humble opinion these people talk complete rubbish. I think any person with Islam in their heart and any understanding of the religion will be more interested in their own path than that of others.

Muslims are not supposed to force conversions..a forced conversion would not be a true conversion anyway, you are only a muslim if you feel this from your own heart. it is not enough to have a certain type of name and to say certain things.

There is more to being muslim than that, but there are also many paths to the same place, muslim implies a beliver in the one God..the words we muslims often use happen to be in arabic.

God listens to people in all languages, after all people see angels from all countries. it is completre nonsense to say that some people will go to hell because they are not the same as some fundementalists.

Islam recognises goodness in all people, good actions are what count, good intentions are pretty crucial too, but as far as I understand it, Allah rates good actions and a life lead as well as you can.

There are many examples in hadith etc of people who are non muslim who are guarenteed a place in heaven.

Further more, it is God who decides on this..not people..this is why we have divine revelation, it comes from God who is the merciful and great, he has supreme knowledge, he is described as the best judge of us. God is not limited man is by bias and situation and passionate views.

Muslims are taught that God judges each INDIVIDUAL according to what they know and understand, so the criteria I guess may vary for each soul on the day of judgement.

I think what this means is that for muslims it is important to live the best life they can and with accordance to Islam. Their life choices should be made with this in mind, Islam should be their guide.

But what about people who never heard of it? A fair and loving, merciful God would surely not mark down people who lived prior to islam..or for example any peerson who did not get to see a Qu'ran..I don't know..like maybe someone living in a remote part of a rain forest.

A person on this earth cannot sit in judgement fairly of people who he does not understand, who is so different to him..but God can.

Every human on this earth will be treated fairly on the day of judgement, not just muslims.

We are also given to understand that possibly muslims might have it tougher...since they have been given the qu'ran which is a great benefit to mankind and individuals, muslims are supposed to know better..as a result of the favours given to them in this way.

Another thing islam teaches us is about pride and certain aspects of idolatry. Setting yourself up as more important than others, placing yourself in Allah's place as a judge over other men's spirituality is seen as a great sin.

To deny another person's sincerity regarding their religious belief is a great sin, so to them start saying they will go to hell if they don't convert, or that it is your duy to make them change...according to islam..a very big sin.

Islam tends to teach moderation as well and this is taught definately in opposition to fundementalism. We are shown that we should be devoted to islam, spirituality and to our beliefs..but that these things should never take us out of the real world to the point where we become obsessed or iresponsible.

Islam teaches the middle road in all of this. We hear a lot about the fact this world is transient and the after life is the crucial one..yes, this is true. But we are also taught to value our world, other people, c

RE: Any doubt / question about Islam ?

I'd certainly say that that quote is not a Muslim quote but a fundamentalist quote. There's a certain strain of Christian - many of the BACs of America, though of course not all - who are also out to convert everybody (as if that could be done). And fundamentalists of any persuasion seem to tend to go to war, or to use unpleasant means at any rate.

It might be an interesting study for academics, but not for this thread! - what kind of things embedded within a religion, though it's a good and loving religion, attract fundies? Because you'd hardly say there are Taoist fundies, so far as I know.;)

Maybe relying just on one book, and misinterpreting it? Or a fundy culture that's just happened to grow up in the past, in some religions but not all? So the history and the background and simplistic belief-structure is there?

Venetian

RE: Any doubt / question about Islam ?

I tend to think that fundementalism is brought about more by politics and social issues. The followers of such religions who have fundys have often been at the centre of all kidns of other troubles. i think the problems are a little more complex than just passing it off on a religion.

bear in mind that a lot of what was taught by prophet mohamed at the time was to solve a lot of really bad problems that were going on and to bring better lifestyles to people then and in the future.

There was violenceand fighting going on before islam,, there was abuse, slavery etc etc beforeour prophet came along. Also before the other prophets too..each of them seemed to come along to try and help in certain specific ways because bad stuff was going on.

Taoism is a wonderful religion..like to many others, i have total respect for this religion and believe also that God created it. However, it hasn't yet solved all of the world's problems and every follower will not be perfect.

Likewise neither has islam, and not all muslims are good, or Christians or jews, but i think it is disgraceful to compare the religions of people in this point scoring way.

There is nothing in Christianity either that promotes fundementalism, quite the opposite, you get good and bad Christians..but lets not forget the good things done in the name of Christianity and Judaism, and islam...the millions and millions of non fundementalist followers who are devoted to their religions.

I am starting to wonder if some people just wish to insist that these religions are bad..whatever people say.

In this section of HP, whatever question is asked about islam, whatever point is carfully explained..some people still want to insist we are all violent and nasty.

I keep on trying to tell you that i and any others happen to be muslim and peaceful, we do not wish to fight and would like to share the truth of our religion. But there seems to be little interest in this.

it seems we have a sitution where the fundys don't want to listen to us and neither do certain non muslims.

Islam as I have often said is about moderation and not extremes, it is about being normal...why is it that normal doesn't apeal right now? Is it out of fashion.

I am sorry but whatever you say I insist that islam is not a violent religion, it does not teach murder and intolerance. I am muslim and I am tolerant and peaceful, i try to be a good person, so do lots of other people.

Christianity is also the same, judaism the same too. There is not simplistic belief structure, we are not a bunch of sheep or fools.

Venetian, i fear you are falling into the plots of the people who wish to do their own religions harm and pulled into what they want people to think..a pile of nonsense.

I think evil people should be labeled as just that as long as they wish to harm other people, never mind what religoon they say they have. All of the religons have the same rules, be a nice person, don't hurt and kill.

Can we agree on this?

Ok, so leave religion out of it...criminals should be brought to justice and their excuses ignored, religion is not an excuse for bad behaviour.

Why not stop refering to fundys as muslims etc, if they break laws, deal with them same as anyone else, but stop letting them get away with and taking it out on other non criminal people.

pulling islam or any other religion to bits will not solve the problems of the world today, it just causes more bad feeling...thus playing into te plot again of the present fundys..they want us all to fight over nothing.

But lets get one thing clear, my religion does not ask me to fight with you or anyone else and I wont just because some fools somewhere say i should.

They are simply using islam as a good diversion, we need to look at what is really going on to bring peace amoungst us.

RE: Any doubt / question about Islam ?

Hi Hal,

You and I have 'known' each other through posts for a couple of years now, and I'm sure we respect each other. I just read your post above and was nodding and agreeing all the way, until I suddenly found you addressing me! Did you thinkI disagree with any of what you say? - becuase I totally agree.

As you probably know, I tend to ask hard questions sometimes - like playing devil's advocate. I do agree with all you write, but sometimes I think the hard questions need to be asked - otherwise it would be like covering up a truth. Anything I write on this subject is not really about Islam but about religion in general. Being born and raised in a mainly Christian nation, I'd love to be able to say that this religion doesn't have a speckled past, but it does - the Inquisition, South America, etc. That's what I mean about asking the hard questions. To me it means accepting that the great majority in any religion are wonderful people, and that the religion itself has a great foundation ... but asking or looking at - just as you say - politics and fundies getting involved. I can't say more as it would be political, but so-called Christianity is behind the intervention in Iraq, for better or worse.

Yesterday we had the news that a Shiite mosque had been attacked deliberately in Iraq specifically in order to stir up strife between one kind of Muslim and another. My first thought was, "Well, if that was the motive- to get people killing each other - surely they will see through that and not react???!" But today the news is that there's a partial civil war - the action against the mosque had exactly the effect it was intended to! So my concern is about such people, who can be so easily manipulated.

Much love, and thanks for being here to explain real Islam to us all,

Venetian

RE: Any doubt / question about Islam ?

To be honest, this thread is not so fresh and not so fresh in my memory, Hal. But I kinda get the feeling that either this thread, or the one it came from, didn't begin in the best way. I may be quite wrong. But it seemed to me as if some wording quite early on was like trying to draw people like you out? I didn't like or agree with the wording which was provocative, not neutral,and I am totally by your side that such an attitude isn't right.

V xxx

RE: Any doubt / question about Islam ?

Hi venetian,

imam not after you or anything..just I get over excited..forgive me if I go on a bit.

I think I am just trying to say that the actions of the people..christians, muslims or others are not necessarily truely inspired by the religion.

it is an age old trend to blame religion for badbehaviour..both for the people doing the nasty things and the people trying to get their heads around it.

I think often when people are under extreme pressure of hardship they can tend to behave desperately and cling to religion while giving it very little thought. I think people behave this way out of fear and when they feel they have nothing else to lose.

In Iraq the people are not enjoying settled lives, life there is a little desperate, their actions lately are despreate, they are not truley inspired by islam. A mosque is involved, but the mosque is representative of who they want to be, their lives(which are being threatened) and all that they know they have lost. the mopsque is about more than all the things the Qu'ran says..a mosque only means a congregation of people praying..it represents a group by attacking a place of worship you attack th people and all that they are...religious or otherwise.

i think when ou live as they are right now, it is easy to forget the niceties of islam or any other religion. lives are being shattered out there every day.

i wonder what we would all do here if we recieved some of the treatment people get out there. it is easy to be peaceful when things are going your way.

When people are de-humanised they become nasty and i think that has happened a lot to many muslims who happen to be living at this time of history.

look back at how catholics have been treated..for example irish people..erm gypsies, African people...do that to people for a while and get away with it a time..then the world goes mad and many get hurt.

I think here in England we are mostly very lucky right now...we live in reletive peace, we are actually pretty wealthy compared to billions of other people in the world..a lot of us have the luxury to ponder on how we can enjoy life better..how to live the dream just a but more.

I do not believe this fortune is just because we are all so good and lovely people. lets remember the wealth we today have is at an expesne of others who are living today..or lived before. We owe some big favours.
That is nto to say that we all are bad and taking what belongs to others..niot true..and it is not anyone here's fault that this country got wealthier off the empire or slavery trade. All i am saying we have benefitted from plenty of injustices...and Christianity did not give a liscence for that.

I guess this is just hopw the world is...people chose to survive by slamming other people.

but there wil always be trouble in the end.

But what will we do when someone comes along and takes everything we love and own..might we too find ourselves fighting over churches...no matter how religious we are?

I am just tinking all this because I am pondering on how i might think and behave if someone bombed my home, got rid of local schools, killed my friends and family, stole my horses, livelihood.

I am not just thinking or iraqis..but people in general..comparing myself.

i think a few years of what they go through i might get pretty nasty too.

hal

RE: Any doubt / question about Islam ?

Yes thank you Hal for your response, my muslim sister would say the same as your response to me.
You make some excellent points, I accept that the middle east is a very different world and that was brought home to me by a muslim brother when he was making arrangements for me to go to Egypt. I always remember him being so forthright with me and saying Kim, you are not going to Europe, you are going to the middle east...he was most concerned for my safety.

Which brings me back to the reason for my post, Hal has there ever been a time when there has been complete peace with no unrest at all in the middle east?

Divine Love

RE: Any doubt / question about Islam ?

Hi,

yes there has been more peace than you may think...plenty of individual pockets of it.

iran and Iraq haven't always lacked peace, neither has Afganistan, and lots of people living peacefully in such places.

Beirut was not always a war zone..wasn't it a rather gorgeous and lovely place to holiday at one time..mu great aunt lived there...it was a glamreous and good place to be..but Beirut brings about a totally different image lately.

Many countries there have been peaceful..in fact there was a good time or two casued by mohammed..there were troubles as he began but he did actually increase peace and stability even if it wasn't permanant. but I think people don't realsie how bad things had been and how much work he did and what improvements he made in his reletively short life.

And of course amoungst troubled places there are always people living peacefully.

if you look at Europe..would you say that here we have had much peaceful times either..hardly!

Since the first and second world war we have been involved in masses of battles and troubles..then there is Northern ireland and the troubles...which we caused and have been involved with ever since.

Gulf war, loads of bits and pieces and just consider our football hooligan reputation..I am not convinced were are so much better or more peaceful than anyone else.

I am not going to get into rights and wrongs but our situation is not always so different, just more recently a lot of it is not on our doorstep which is lucky for us.

But around ther world there is always some poor sod getting it and it doesn't always involve muslims.

Another point..talking of unrest and violence in the middle east and other such places...lets bear in mind which countires won empires through war and violence in recent history...

has there been very much peace anywhere.

anoter point..Islam is not really the cause of unrest..there is unrest where muslims happen to live. but in the middle east there are not just muslims..there are jews, Christins and others too.

In Palestine there are plenty of Christians, yasser Arafat was Christian...but I don't really think the core issues there are religious ones..other things too.

Also, in other places which are muslim countries or large groups of them...muslims have been living pecefully with people of other religions for plenty of time..for example Tunisia.

hal

RE: Any doubt / question about Islam ?

Hi Hal,

Good points.

It is very ironic but Beirut was as you say a great place once but the irony is that the fighting began on the very day I was travelling there. Seems like back then I was a Jonah. Everywhere I went a war happened ;).

Just one thought, and it is only a thought and I may be quite wrong. I wonder if Muslims are more placid in the West than in the Middle East? Idid find the Middle East an incredibly dangerous place to travel in off the tourist path....

Venetian

RE: Any doubt / question about Islam ?

I don't think muslims are different by nature in different parts of the world, but like any people they will differ according to their circumstances and upbringing.

I think it is important to remember that they are just people the same as the rest of us, being in the middle east does not necessarily make you nasty or a danger. By the same token there are dangerous places to go where there are no muslims.

I think it is very important nowadays to try and stop labeling the trouble makers as muslims, maybe just call them by what they actually are...judge them on their behaviour..not on their religion or their creed.

There are big problems in the middle east and the causes extremely varied and the solutions very difficult, compromises I guess will have to be made..and you can't please all of the people all of the time.

But I think we need to hope for and work towards solutions..and really islam is not the cause of the trouble and if we don't identify the true causes then we will not ever see solutions.

Again I find myself thinking of how I would feel and react if I was treated as some of the people out there..dehumanised, degraded, disliked, my family and friends hurt and killed, my land and livelihood taken..and then no one really caring because of who i am..as I am likely to be a pest anyway.

A lot of people are being manipulated who happen to be at a disadvantage already..talk about kick a man who is down!

I think it is important to realise that these people, the majority are more likely to be interested in their survival, prosperity and their family..not in hassling us.

I am sure they would like to be allowed to get on with their lives in peace..not many people like to see their peopleand families torn apart and degraded as so many are.

I am talking of normal people like us..not murderers and trouble makers.

hal