RE: what is forgiveness?

I guess I disagree with the there is no right or wrong. I think that there is a lot of things that are relative and people may have differing ideas, but abuse is wrong. Hitting someone you supposedly love and who loves you is wrong. Actually, often hitting someone is wrong. I know, I know...self defense. there is an exception to every rule. cutting someone down verbally is wrong. Submitting your will for someone else's is wrong. Especially, if as spongebob nopants (great name btw!) says, it's a pattern and repeated behavior. I'm not normally a black and white person. I don't believe people are cruel or evil; but I believe that they can commit cruel acts--and that it is wrong to do so.

RE: what is forgiveness?

Love to all that see they are the victim in love and in forgiveness they will see they are the victors and gain strength to take there power back to walk in love of self
Love to all that are the perpetrators for in love of self they will walk in love of others
Love to all that walk in this plain for you are all awesome as you walk and all are truly love in all you be

As my guides say “love all as we do”
The victim is the victim because thay chouse to be and in that I had to ask my self the big questions why am I letting my x wife talk to me like she did and in the end of years of trying to fix or change her she left and l never invited her back as I did before

And understand she was doing it because I let her and in a way contributed to it

And in love of what an awesome person she is I walked in the knowing I did not need to let my self be treated like that and she was doing what she had been tort to do
And would treat most people the way she did me
And now I see the victim in her way of being and I will not sit in poor me and help that way of being for her or let poor me play in me
it’s a dynamic she is not wrong or right nor me and in love I sit with her but if I ever lived with her again I would end up as a broken man and live in hate and fear of her of the words that would come out of here mouth

as to child abuse rape and murder ect this I could and some times find my self sitting in judgment of them even when my guides give them love and tell me about the contracts and how they have chosen this in there life’s
its very easy to see how wrong they are and how bad it is and its easy to say stuff god for letting this happen
but the thing that stops me is the conversation that starts in my head and to be quite frank its dose not leave me in a place of peace and in that space I can not be any help to the victim or the perpetrator I will not sent love or healing to both just the victim and all need our love for to stop this happening in love all heals

RE: what is forgiveness?

victims become victims because someone else chose to violate them

but I guess it's come to the "agree to disagree point"

lol

thanks for the input tho :>

RE: what is forgiveness?

But you are wrong
And I have to convert you lol
and all that stuff

RE: what is forgiveness?

hi vortex,

i found this interesting...

guides give them love and tell me about the contracts and how they have chosen this in there life’s

are you saying that abusive people have chosen that for themselves in that particular life.. so "the guides" say its ok?

i have never heard of contracts existing in that way? (never really thought about the concept of contracts actually).

RE: what is forgiveness?

Quote: Crystarra
I can't help but think that there is a problem with charecterizing emotional responses as inherently "positive" or "negative". anger is not always negative. Neither is hurt. both are emotional responses. Any emotion, no matter how "positive" seeming it is can be excessive and unhealthy...or we can respond to them in unhealthy ways and vice versa.

Simply put, positive emotions make us feel good and negative emotions make us feel bad, so it is perfectly viable to just use positive and negative to describe emotions. However I do agree that even too much positive emotion can have negative side effects, but they are "side effects" not the actual emotion themselves. (I hope that makes sense)

In all honesty, I don't think it is possible to divorce ourselves from our emotions.

Have you ever tried Emotional Freedom Technique (EFT)? You won't eradicate emotions caused by new or future events, but you can eradicate emotions that are brought about by past events.

They are a part of who we are and serve a very real purpose. They are going to change and shift and transform, but will never completely disappear. Isn't that a rule? energy can change, but never disappear?

Just because the emotion disappears doesn't mean that energy has been destroyed, it has just been changed.
Yes emotions are part of who we are, but there is no point in having emotions that don't serve a positive purpose in our lives, otherwise we are just letting ourselves be hurt.

In a way I have to agree with what Vortex is putting across.
People do have a right to do what they want to do. Whether this is right or wrong is subjective and this is what Vortex is saying. What you see as "wrong" may appear "right" to someone else. There are many examples of this in the world, you only have to watch the news and you'll see exactly that. An example is someone who ends the life of a loved one who is suffering in pain from a terminal illness. In the eyes of themselves and the person who is ill they are doing the right thing, but in the eyes of some people this will be seen as wrong. Only you can decide what is truly right and wrong for yourself and live your life by your own beliefs. Enforcing our own "rights" and "wrongs" on others is the causes of many problems in the world.

Sponge Bob,
Retribution will not heal your own negative emotions, it will only serve to aggravate the other party. In a lot of cases the other party is looking for recognition, looking for a response to their actions, perhaps because of a lack of self-worth or other reason. Retribution gives them that response and recognition they want. It's like terrorists and our governments. The fact that the governments are making such a big issue out of the need to protect ourselves against terrorists is achieving exactly the terrorists aim of putting fear into the public. The governments are doing the terrorists job for them. (I'd better shut up on that now before I get MOD'd) I think you get where I'm coming from.

We all need to heal ourselves.

Love and Reiki Hugs

RE: what is forgiveness?

ORIGINAL: vortex

But you are wrong
And I have to convert you lol
and all that stuff

hehe...nono...you will be the one who is converted! 😛

RE: what is forgiveness?

there is a lot that is subjective and I recognize that. But I don't believe that all is subjective. Can you honestly say that someone has the right to rape someone else? Is it right to torture people? Slavery was and still is wrong and it might be egotistical, but I don't care because no matter how many people thought and still think it is right, it's not. We don't have the right to violate another person. What is violation is hard to define without knowing the exact sitaution.

and i'd be careful about saying things and emotions that make you feel good are good. That can be an illusion or it could be temporary.

finally, I don't want to divorce myself from my emotions...i did that and it didn't work. I stopped feeling a lot more than the "bad" So these days, I attempt to take the bad with the good and just accept that I'm going to have a wide-range of emotions and to let them be what they are. well that is the theory.

RE: what is forgiveness?

Yep Rosie
That’s what they told me
But it led me to some questions I did not really wont to be answered at the moment even when you know what the are going to say ha ha
And how you are really responsible for how you perceive things in this life and what you take on from them and how you let it ruin your life in the poor me
But it did let me gain more acceptance of the murder and rapist ect and to not walk-in judgment of them in

RE: what is forgiveness?

And how you are really responsible for how you perceive things in this life and what you take on from them and how you let it ruin your life in the poor me

as to the murder ect some people are not realy afected and others relive it every day
and the question as to why do i let affect me

RE: what is forgiveness?

ORIGINAL: ro§ie
hi vortex,
i found this interesting...

guides give them love and tell me about the contracts and how they have chosen this in there life’s

are you saying that abusive people have chosen that for themselves in that particular life.. so "the guides" say its ok?
i have never heard of contracts existing in that way? (never really thought about the concept of contracts actually).

This is a view shared by other people too. If you've ever read "Why Come Back?" by Roger Burman, this is something that he talks about in great detail. I'll try and summarize it for you.
In his view (this is what his guides have channelled to him) we are all part of a spirit "three". What happens is that the spirit 3 comes from the greater consciousness, and then these 3 spirits decide amongst themselves a life plan for two of the spirits. These two spirits will then incarnate either on this world or another. There's stuff to do with different levels of spirits on different worlds but that's outside the scope of what we're talking about here. So each of the two incarnated spirits will be incarnated with no knowledge of previous lives or what their life plan is and will be guided by their spirit third ("spirit guide") who acts as the "director" of the "play" if you like. The incarnated spirits will be guided to try and achieve their plans and at some point in their lives the two incarnated spirits will meet and influence each other in line with the plan which could be anything from a chance couple of second meeting to a permanent life long relationship. In order for the spirit third ("director") to achieve things, they co-ordinate with other spirit thirds to bring about situations etc. which can be mutually beneficial to their own incarnated spirits. The life plan that is decided beforehand can be anything that allows the spirits to gain learning. This can be something we would see as positive i.e. the achieve greatness in their life and bring peace to millions or something we would see as negative i.e. experiencing the trauma of dying during birth or experiencing the emotions and feelings related to being a mass murderer. All of these are seen as lessons to be learned. When the core lesson of the life plan has been achieved the spirit will return to the spirit realm to join the spirit third. When both incarnated spirits have returned, then the lessons that have been learned will evaluated and add to the knowledge of those spirits. As more and more lessons are learned through more incarnations the spirits eventually move up in level until they achieve a level where they reach enlightenment. Once all of the three have reached this state they can return to the greater consciousness where their knowledge will be assimilated and new spirit "three"'s will be released to learn more.

That's the general gist of it, so the life plan in Roger Burmans beliefs sounds very much like the contract in Vortex's beliefs. In these belief systems, each spirit has chosen that they should experience such actions whether these are seen by us as negative or positive actions.

It's an interesting belief and not necessarily one that I go along with myself.

Crystarra,
Does somebody have the right to rape or murder etc. Society says not, however these people are given the right to choose what they do and that is why they can do it. Some religions believe it is right to kill those who do not believe in their beliefs. That is right in their society, not ours. Some religions believe that if someone is dying, even if they can be helped through medical means, that they should be left to die as this is Gods way. This is right to them, but not necessarily to me. Right and Wrong is purely subjective. I have my belief about what is right and wrong just as you have yours. Some things we will agree on, some we may not.

Love and Reiki Hugs

RE: what is forgiveness?

Gosh, this thread has moved on a lot from 10am when I tried to post and found out that I had been logged off, yet again, then had to leave for work.........

We seem to be going off the subject of forgiveness too, but that's the way with topics, they throw up other topics.

Anyway, here's one I prepared earlier - I notice I've said almost the same as Giles about retribution.

ORIGINAL: spongebob nopants

Consider bulliesS.
For Othe good of all¹ ­ if you have the ability to teach a bully a lesson
that they understand (as lets face it ­ to a bully Obeing forgiven¹ is
indistinguishable from Ogetting away with it¹ ­ so makes no difference to
them) ­ unload on Oem and let Oem know what it¹s for;

I understand what you're saying Roger - it's a very human response "An eye
for an eye" which is part of Hebrew teachings (but not Christian - Jesus
taught the higher way). Now, there is a certain country in the Middle East
which practices this to the letter. Has this brought peace, security, has it
cured the root of the problem?

Here's a child who was being bullied (in fact, the whole class was being
bullied) and whose practice of the spiritual system I posted in the link
above - of separating the evil from the person, of looking for the God-like
qualities, healed the class bully: Both links are from ,
who have many articles on healings from bullying and abuse.

Changing bullies into buddies

and here's an account of a woman who was abused by a violent husband for 10
years and how, by the same method, she now has a happy and fulfilling
marriage:

My new husband

It seems to me that there are three methods of dealing with people who are
abusive or who hurt us:

1) We can either stand up to them and "teach them a lesson" - yup, that
sometimes works, - it might stop the violence through fear of more violence.
Does it heal the root cause of the problem though? There was a short Cabin
Service Director, who didn't like women, anyone taller than him or anyone
who spoke better than him, when I was flying, who everyone feared and
loathed working with. Well, I took the human route - I stood up to him and
never had problems with him after that, but i used to go on hearing stories
from other crews of nightmare trips with him, so that method was just like
applying a BandAid - sure it made my life easier, but it didn't cure
anything.

2) We can avoid the person, and probably not think about them, like
Songstress and Vortex. Does that stop them from hurting others though?

3) Or we can forgive, in the fullest, spiritual way - we can separate the
evil from the person, we can recognise their spiritual identity as the
innocent and pure idea of God and that will help release them and allow them
to change - to re-form.

When I was a child, I witnessed a healing my mother helped bring. The
abusive husband of her best friend rang my mother in the middle of the
night, having a serious asthma attack. He didn't think he could live through
the night (he'd been getting the doctor out every three hours for injections
- this was in the 60's before inhalers)

My mother initially was horried that he'd asked her to pray for him as she
loathed him, but she realised that what she loathed was his seeming lack of
purity. All night, she prayed to establish in her thinking his true,
spiritual identity as the good, innocent and pure idea of Mind (Spirit). He
fell asleep and woke in the morning, not only completely and permanently
healed of asthma, but also of alcoholism, addiction to tobacco and he
stopped beating his wife and children and became a kind, gentle, loving man,
taking up the study of this spiritual system that had healed him. It was a
total and complete transformation.

So, I know it works. It's not as easy as revenge or avoidance, but is much
more effective, for it blesses everyone!

Love and peace,

Judy

RE: what is forgiveness?

Just to have my 'little bit of say' on a few points here 😀
I now try not to see things as positive or negative emotions...it used to make things worse, it would send me deeper into the negative side of thinking or higher into the positive side of things and I'd think "wow" I don't want to come down from here...when I did it would be from a great height and with a huge bump which would then have me deep into the negative again [&:] I try to see what I can learn from the feelings I am having and then remember that and either don't do it again or maybe not too much or not too intensely ( I hope I'm making sense here? [:-] )

I don't find that getting someone back gives me any kind of pleasure at all. All it seems to do is bring me to their level of thinking and it certainly doesn't ''sit'' well with me, then I'm back on that rollercoaster of emotions again and trying to sort out my way of thinking from what someone else thinks. It certainly throws me off balance!!

Talking about the rights and wrongs of different societies...I read in the Mail this week about a city near Tehran, Iran that tortured a young man for killing and raping mainly young boys between 8 - 15 years old. Quite a number of them before he was caught. He ended up being publicly flogged and hung. It took half an hour to get through the 100 floggings and then after being hung he didn't die until 20 mins later, the crowd cheered and shouted out the children's names of his victims. The paper made a point of saying even women and children watched! Although this shocks our country now, we must remember a time when this to us, was also entertainment and a very public affair. This, now is very wrong to us and we have found other ways of dealing with our rapists etc.... I have no comment on their method as they are doing what they see fit for his punishment! He took their 'babies' away from them and they feel this is a very fitting end to his life! Does that mean it's wrong though, just because we have now found another way of dealing with such criminals?! These people don't think so and if we say it is, we're judging them and we are in no position to judge anyone other than ourselves. [&o] Someone said along the way that what is right for one person isn't so for another and that means the only one with anything to deal with is ourselves. No one person is right and no-one is wrong. We are all having experiences. [sm=grouphug.gif]

RE: what is forgiveness?

'forgiveness' is saintly quality.
To forgive is to accept the basic spiritual truth that 'everything is the manifestation of the same Divine element'.
By forgiving others, one pushes him/herself up into the higher understanding of secrets of existance.
By forgiving, one becomes free from this worldly limitations and grows into wider infinity.

RE: what is forgiveness?

Hi guys,

ORIGINAL: Energylz
Sponge Bob,
Retribution will not heal your own negative emotions, it will only serve to aggravate the other party. In a lot of cases the other party is looking for recognition, looking for a response to their actions, perhaps because of a lack of self-worth or other reason. Retribution gives them that response and recognition they want. It's like terrorists and our governments. The fact that the governments are making such a big issue out of the need to protect ourselves against terrorists is achieving exactly the terrorists aim of putting fear into the public. The governments are doing the terrorists job for them. (I'd better shut up on that now before I get MOD'd) I think you get where I'm coming from.

Hi Giles,
You and I have very similar pursuits, predominantly Healing, Tai Chi & Reiki and usually I am in agreement with you on most things; but you have misunderstood me on ‘retribution’. I’m not advocating retribution in all cases either, however, you have missed the fundamental precepts of my system the main two being “what is the best action needed for the good of all” and any action decided on to be carried out ‘without emotion…i.e. detached from the event (emotionless).
I cannot deny I have negative emotions sometimes – but I don’t keep them for long mate… EFT is something that I don’t need, as I believe that ultimately our emotions are part and parcel of our journey too.
I have no doubts that in the great scheme of things being both the murdered and the murderer are probably essential experiences & and like Vortex, I also don’t believe there is such a thing as right or wrong (in the greater scheme of things) there is only appropriate and in-appropriate – so my concern (as stated earlier) is what is the best action I can carry out “for the good of all”!

Frankly I find it quite easy to forgive and go about my business – but it’s a bit “I’m all right Jack” as far as I’m concerned and choosing to do something about it is actually harder to do (for me), than doing nothing and just sending love to the situation or person/s involved.
Re: your point about terrorists, I don’t buy it mate… the difference between Israeli oppression and Palestinian terror is only funding, quality of weaponry and uniforms, otherwise the both kill innocents under one premise or another; freedom fighter/terrorist… just a question of the observers perception really.

As to Govt’s spreading fear, I agree totally with that sentiment and have thought it for a long time – most of those in power – serving their own selfish needs or wants.

Hi Judy,
Again, like Giles I think you too have misunderstood my meaning, so - clearly I am not making myself plain. 😀
Your reply to me has taken my meaning on a very simplistic level, oh! If only that life were that simple where ‘an eye for an eye’ could actually work.

ORIGINAL: Principled
I understand what you're saying Roger - it's a very human response "An eye
for an eye" which is part of Hebrew teachings (but not Christian - Jesus
taught the higher way). Now, there is a certain country in the Middle East
which practices this to the letter. Has this brought peace, security, has it
cured the root of the problem?

By ‘action’ or ‘retribution’ I can mean anything from words of encouragement and criticism, or a disapproving look, confrontation and/or advice or all the way up to ‘out and out’ violence, perhaps even taking life I suppose (if the situation warrants it) – it just naive to think that you or I wouldn’t - I can think of a few situations where you would probably have to if you could.
Sometimes it’s too easy to personally deal with something, get over it and send love, for example – the bully that you talked about – I probably would have confronted him and listed his wrong doing in front of those that he bullied - when it’s out in the open – people like him aint so powerful; but effectively letting it ride so that he can continue doing it to others th

RE: what is forgiveness?

Hi energylz
Its like that guy has been talking to my guides ha ha
And I don’t just take what my guilds say as gospel far from it ha ha

ORIGINAL: Energylz

It's an interesting belief and not necessarily one that I go along with myself.

As they say to me its just a way of looking at it so you can shift your understanding as that understanding grows they give me a new concept
But I also know in side my self I would not got that new concept with my old beliefs

Andi
I relate to what you say
As I call it walking centered not letting you emotions run your life

But as my guilds say and to me as a way of being and viewing this awesome planet for me works so well
And with that ill let them say it for I would never find the words

To all that walk in this very sacred place
Love to all that walk here love to all sitting on death row all that were there victims love to all souls lost in transition love to all that work here love all in all they be
For we stand in love of all and sit in judgment on no person
For you are one with us no grater or worse
For who are we to judge, you are all apart of the whole like a cell in your body
All ask you send love to all as we do
In the place of acceptance of what you judge to be positive and negative inner peace sits
In all that you be you are all truly love and all ways sit in the god energy
Love all that is the planet of fee choice for you can do any thing here in the belief all exists
freedom to experience things that do not sit in other realms
the beauty and diversity that sits in this realm
love what is such a sacred place in all its diversity to be many things in one experience

Love brent

RE: what is forgiveness?

so if I might sum up cuz this is how i can make sure i'm understanding the points made here....

some feel that forgiveness is unnecessary because right/wrong is subjective and judgmental? or is it more that forgiveness is seen as a way of releasing personal judgment against certain behaviors and perceived "wrongs"?

some think that forgiveness is unnecessary to "heal." It's a matter of releasing the pain and anger and moving on--which forgiveness may or may not be a part of that healing process. In this viewpoint, forgiveness seems to be defined more in terms of an interpersonal relationship--it's sort of seen as a two-way street.

some think that forgiveness is necessary to heal because otherwise you will never be able to let go of the past. Forgiveness seems to me to be seen less focused on the "victimizer" (can't think of a better word right now) as they don't need to know or care if they've been "forgiven" or not. But that if you can't forgive, then you can't release negative emotions and you will be stuck to the past. There is also the "spiritual" point of view in this camp it seems to me which sort of adds that since we are all the same, we have to forgive...is it sort of like a hating my enemy is hating myself type idea?

I know that i've oversimplified everyone's position...lol...and i'm not trying to diminish them. I'm just trying to make sure i'm understanding everything in my head. Have I missed or misstated anything?

RE: what is forgiveness?

My own perspective on forgiveness would be based upon my backgrounds in (1) Theosophy, or something like it, and (2) Hinduism. And their perspectives on forgiveness are just about the same.

Let’s just say that the below is “IMHO” without putting that in everywhere – though it isn’t just my opinion, but that of a significant proportion of the planet’s population who go along with genuine Hindu or Theosophical ideals.

Forgiveness isn’t only something you do within yourself, such as adjusting to an act upon yourself and being ‘healed’ from it. The act has linked you (we might say ‘karmically’) to the doer. So forgiveness involves the activity of how you feel toward them. You may not be able to reach or communicate with them, but you can still have the inner activity of completely forgiving them.

This gets a little complicated into areas I won’t go into a lot such as that to forgive you have to have some understanding of them, and some empathy. You may, for example, come to realise what triggered their wrong deeds. But even without understanding, you still forgive. From the Hindu and Theosophical backgrounds, it isn’t so hard to forgive (after the natural emotional pain which may be initially there has worn off). Because a Theosophist recognises everybody as being, in their true nature, a part of God in the very real sense. And Hindus likewise. Everybody is in their true nature Perfect, and that true nature has simply been sullied by maya or illusion caused by the conglomerate mistakes of humanity and the things also done to them. Ultimately everyone will once again express that inner Perfection. People are like perfect gemstones which are covered in dust. From the outside we may see only dust, but the real person is the gem within. One day the dust will be wiped away and the gemstone will be clearly visible – same applies to ourselves!

So if someone goes around acting wrongly, say, this is but an outer layer covering over their true inner Divine nature. How relatively easy, then, to forgive! Since we see the wrongdoer as a being of God who is in their innate but hidden nature Divine. If we do not forgive them, in effect we are not forgiving a part of God – we are not forgiving God. Of course, the Divine didn’t act out whatever the misdeed was, but the misdeed arose from the kind of error we may all be capable of. And we would like to be forgiven, wouldn’t we?

Allied to seeing others as inherently Divine, we also view them as One Being with ourselves. The apparent separateness between them and us is also an illusion. Viewed from a higher perspective, we are One. So to not forgive them is ultimately not to forgive a part of ourselves. If we don’t forgive anyone, it’s a scar upon our own psychology at some level.

Needless to say, this is all the ideal. In the buffeting of life we can often lose sight of ideals! But nevertheless they are still there to guide us and to return to.

If we can dispense with any false ‘wishy washy’ view of Jesus and of Christianity, Jesus was actually a powerful and courageous man, and he also gave profound – and then revolutionary – teachings on forgiveness. He even taught (to peoples’ astonishment) to “forgive your enemies”. So from another perspective we might just ask ourselves, “What would Jesus do?” That isn’t just a ‘religious’ standpoint, but a profoundly philosophical way of dealing with life too.

Spongebob has also raised the issue of what to do if someone is still going around committing wrong acts. I wouldn’t go for pacifism. If we take the ultimate example, perhaps, of when our nation is under threat of invasion and its population in threat of being slaughtered such as in World War II, you stand up to ‘evil’. But at the end of the day, the warfare is conducted as Arjuna conducts warfare in the Gita: dispassionately so far as possible. As a deed that must be done for the greater good.

Forgiveness can be hard, yes! Probably the three greatest villains of comparatively recent times were Hitler, Stalin, and Mao, who were each responsible for th

RE: what is forgiveness?

Dear Venetian,

What a beautiful post, thank you – and it so mirrors what I’ve been trying to share too!

In a sweet example of synchronicity, I have just posted a link to an article on my Effective prayer thread and it included these words.

…..allowing this wonderful link—the Holy Ghost, or God's law—to define us. The Holy Ghost purifies our thoughts, causes us mentally to drop whatever needs dropping. It's a wonderful renovation process. Like a masterpiece painting that's all covered over with dust. We don't have to make the masterpiece. It's already done. But as we remove the encumbrance, the dust, we find that the masterpiece has been there all the time. In other words, we find we've always been linked to God. That's what brings healing.

….Don't let go of the real purpose of prayer—to see that you (and all) are the image and likeness of God, forever linked to Him." The more we see that fact and understand it and hold on to it, the more it lifts us. It lifts us out of sickness, (and emotional pain, anger, hatred) as it has done for me many times.

Practical, reliable prayer
An interview with James Spencer

The Christian Science Sentinel
March 7 issue

Thank you too Venetian, for reminding us of the power and authority of Jesus, and that power came through meekness and love. And though I obviously misunderstood what Roger was saying above – I wrongly thought he meant there was pleasure out of retribution, at this present stage of the development of world thought, it seems that we do have to stand up to evil militarily as a last resort (as much as I, like most here, hate anything to do with war.) The thought of us having capitulated to Hitler, for example just doesn’t bear thinking about. We wouldn’t all be here on HP, having the freedom of speech we have for example!

I still believe though, that the higher way is to separate the evil from the person and acknowledge their true, spiritual identity. When the world understands this and practices it, there will be no more war, no more need for armies or police forces; no more criminality, no more abuse, no more injustice, hatred or hurt.

Love and peace,

Judy

RE: what is forgiveness?

I don't know if I agree with the "forgetting" part either--maybe I'm misunderstanding venetian or being too literal

but it seems to me that we need to remember our past so as to learn from it. the good, the bad and everything in between. Obviously, somethings are going to impact us less and so we won't remember everything, but if something has a big enough impact on our lives, then shouldn't we remember it so as to learn from it?

I understand that some things aren't worth thinking about--and I think that as time goes on, even the big things become less dominant in our thoughts...but I don't know, why should we "forget" it. again, it's a part of who we are.

and another thing...just because you don't "forgive" someone, doesn't mean that you hate them. At least, I don't think it does. to me, it just means to say...it was wrong, and you can't make it ok for me.

but that doesn't mean that i can't make my life ok for me. if that makes sense.

RE: what is forgiveness?

Crystarra...

I don't know if I agree with the "forgetting" part either--maybe I'm misunderstanding venetian or being too literal...
but it seems to me that we need to remember our past so as to learn from it. the good, the bad and everything in between....
I understand that some things aren't worth thinking about--and I think that as time goes on, even the big things become less dominant in our thoughts...but I don't know, why should we "forget" it. again, it's a part of who we are.

If I may butt in here, having experienced 'forgiving and forgetting' myself,
the thing you forget is the emotion attached to the event/s. Forgetting is a difficult one because by refusing to let the event go, you hold on to the associated feeling, even in a tiny way, and therefore have not completely forgiven.

Those painful events I have managed to forgive and forget become memories like pictures in a book. I recall the details but I no longer associate pain or any other emotion with them - they happened, I learned...move on. So I am still the sum total of my experiences and memories but I do not allow them to affect my present or future in any way bar the strengths they have revealed. Does that clear it up for you, Crystarra?

BTW, forgiving someone and clearing your karmic debt doesn't always mean you have to like the person... I did that with a lady and although the debt is done, I still don't much like her as a person this time around, lol!

Blessings
Moonfeather

RE: what is forgiveness?

Thanks, Moonfeather. You explain the 'forgetting' part of forgiveness well. I'll try to add a few more words on my understanding of this, Crystarra.

It's possible to say "I forgive them" when in reality the memory of some deed does keep cropping up in the mind, and associated with unpleasant thoughts (emotions too) toward the doer. This is what took me a while to understand; "forgetting" doesn't mean a process as if we have been brainwashed, and cannot recall the past even if we wished to. But it's basically a "forgetting" if we just never, literally, think of that episode of life again. If the memory keeps coming back, it's only because there are still unresolved emotions, and even if unconsciously these will involve unforgiveness.

Somebody punched me in the stomach out of the blue and for no reason when I was about nine years old. I doubled over in pain and was hurt by the embarrassment of having instantly 'lost' to another male. I can now recall that episode. But I haven't thought about it for maybe 5 or 10 years, and then only for a moment for whatever reason. Maybe it pops into my mind for a just a second every several years. (I basically never think of it at all, but just sought it out from my distant memory as an example to give here.) That's 'forgotten' basically. If somebody wronged me three days ago and my emotional world is still all over the place, then I haven't forgotten yet! One point here is that I know people who, if you mention the name of someone they haven't met for 15 years to them, still instantly turn angry in 2005. They are holding on to the non-forgiveness, and presumably quite often revolve the memory of things in their minds all this time later. In fact you can see that they are damaged goods - but it's themselves who are perpetuating the damage by not letting go and not forgiving.

Ideals are easy to talk about I know. 😉 But Jesus said, "Let not the sun go down on your wrath." Ideally, we wouldn't let the very day end without forgiving someone even for the worst offence. So we'd wake up to a blank page and not to the pain of anything done to us the day before.

Venetian xxx

RE: what is forgiveness?

Hello Crystarra,

When people divorce themselves from their emotions, they are no longer human beings, but 'robots.' It's our emotions which make us humans, and make people act in the way they do.

Love,
Patsy.
xxxxx

RE: what is forgiveness?

Hello Moonfeather,

That's how I look upon my episode with the two whom I mentioned earlier in the thread. I see the events as pictures in a book (when I think of them at all) but without any emotional entanglement whatsoever. I have moved on, and so have they, doubtless.

Love,
Patsy.
[:-]

RE: what is forgiveness?

Hi All,

What a wonderful thread. There’s so much good sense written here, I especially agree with Venetian. How can you not forgive another when you can see them as the love that they are? The actions they may have taken that hurt you or others are merely mistakes, just actions, not the people themselves. Not the gemstones underneath as Venetian puts it.

When we talk of the forgetting part of forgiveness, it’s not really a memory thing at all is it? For me, it’s the process of reducing the incident in importance in my mind, down to the size of every day happenings. Making it forget-able, but not erasing it from my memory.

..I think..

Love to you

P.S. Hi Judy, love your posts as always.

RE: what is forgiveness?

Brother Bob! Wheeeeeeee! [sm=1syellow1.gif]

Seeing you here is better than the most yummy Easter egg!.

Sorry about my enthusiasm everyone, but BB is one of the golden oldies from the past (like me) but who hardly ever posts these days and I for one miss his wise and loving posts.

Beautiful thoughts above, as usual - thanks.

Love and peace,

Judy

RE: what is forgiveness?

Dear Brother Bob I wonder whether the same HP newsletter prompted us both. Love and hugs!

Happy Easter everyone

I consider Easter to be a time of forgiveness so this thread is very appropriate for this time of year.

“Forgiveness is an act of compassion

for self, for you are the only one

that is truly harmed by un-forgiveness.

A giving heart,

Is a forgiving heart.

The heart is for giving.”

In healing the self we are allowing the soul to fly and release any energy blockages that can impede the journey, soul purpose and reason for being.

The quality and depth of our forgiveness determines the quality and depth of our love.

Forgiveness heals the heart of anti-love but if we are consciously aware and actively engage in ‘Forgetfulness’ the memory remains in the cellular structure left to be triggered once again. When we transform all memories into perfect love there is no need to forget or deny, for why would anyone wish to deny the love that they are or the love that they have become resulting from their experiences. When we fully ntegrate being love then cellular memories of harm can be released and one ceases to attract negative conditions into one’s life.

Master Jesus said ‘one as to know how to suffer to know how not to suffer’ and this is true for some. When people heal their emotions and achieve self mastery, the human self finds contentment and the soul is at peace.

For the soul requires a sanctuary of inner peace to achieve its fullest potential

and wholeness, completion and oneness with GOD.

We are spiritual beings having a human experience, negative emotions are a barrier to achieving true happiness.

There is a saying ‘get out of the way of yourself’ this alludes to ‘let the human self get out of the way of the divine self’ so that we can realise our perfection and let our hearts sing with joy.

Would Jesus go to war with a gun in his hand? We know in our hearts he would not.

Would he lay down his life for another person as a human shield to protect them?

We know in our hearts that he would.

Love beyond measure

Kim xx

RE: what is forgiveness?

Welcome back Kim too! [sm=1kis.gif]

Gosh, this is becoming the golden-oldies corner of forgiveness!

Love and peace,

Judy

RE: what is forgiveness?

Dear Judy

Thank you for your wonderful welcome but alas I cannot stay.

In the past you gave us some wonderful links to research on Forgiveness and I wonder whether you would be willing to share these with me once more. I have wished to email you in recent months but could not decipher your email address in my book.

I finally bought a copy of the NIV and many of the passages re-translated are enlightening!

There are some wonderful posts on this thread and it is clear that many have made amazing breakthroughs in the last year.

I came across this lovely quote today:

Where there is faith, there is love;
Where there is peace there is GOD.
And where there is GOD,
there is no need.

Leo Tolstoy

I had no idea that Tolstoy was a Christian and am fascinated by our mutual understanding of the new covenant of Love that was bestowed by Jesus.

Love beyond measure

Kimxx

RE: what is forgiveness?

"The outcast in his lonely broodings and his fits of remorse
will get nearer to the heart of God
than will those who observe all the rites of Christianity
but are strangers to its spirit." Keir Hardy

And forgiveness is so much a part of the spirit of Christianity and the mystical Jesus who knew all things,
that forgiveness was to help us find our way home on the road of salvation.

Jesus said ‘They that are whole have no need of a physician, but they that are sick.
But go ye and learn what that meanth" (Mt 9:12)

Love beyond measure

Kim xx