At present I'm undecided about the whole EU referendum thing. There certainly seems to be a lot of conflicting information coming from both sides of the argument, not helped by the recent leaflet drop form the Electoral Commission, where the two sides give contradictory 'facts' (indeed the "Leave" campaign seemed to contradict itself which was amusing in a way)
So, in a friendly discussion sort of way, what do people think? And what facts are you basing your opinion on?
Nice one Giles.
I have made up my mind and have done so for a long time. Britain should get out we need power back in our own hands to get our house in order.
It is a debate and I am sure there are plenty going along with the opposite view.
Most people I speak face to face with seem to be favouring out.
It is a shame that Mr Cameron is in apposition to send individual letters (in a rather fine paper and envelope) trying to persuade electorate of staying in Europe.
However I do feel that at the last minute due to the government's fear mongering tactics etc we are going to bottle it. But that is just my personal feeling.
I am voting out.
How about you?
I am a confirmed 'remain' person. I do genuinely think economically its a better option, but actually my reasons are more philosophical than anything else. We live a world that needs more not less international co-operation. To pull out feels like pulling up the drawbridge and shutting the world out. My son who is 27 told me a few years ago he thinks of himself as a European more than being British....an attitude that I think many of his peers take as well. Me? I am a human being, then a European then British.
Well Ruby, as I said, I'm undecided at the minute and it's seems that all the information is just conflicting, scaremongering, anger and racism (in some cases) or various other things from all parties. It's hard to determine what is fact from fiction.
Just looking at the leaflet we've all received from the Electoral Commission (which I've now read a few times). The "Stay in" campaign seems to have focused itself on "fact giving", quoting the sources (which I'd consider reliable in themselves) for it's facts it's presenting. Though it states for every 1 quid we pay to the EU we get back 10 quid equivalent in reduced prices, jobs and investment.
Conversely the "Leave" campaign states that the we pay the EU 350 million a week and that we get back less than half of that.
So one is saying a 1000% return on investment, and the other is saying a <50% return on investment. So, the question here is how are the figures arrived at.
I can believe that the "Stay in" campaign may have inflated the figures in their favour, but even with inflated figures one would guess that the original figures must have been a positive return. so even if it was just 150% return that would be something. There's no indication how the "Leave" campaign have sourced their figures, but I can guess that they may also have deflated the figures for their benefit. I guess it's difficult to put a monetary value on various things such as how much jobs through the EU are worth, or how much value there is in the trade deals for imported or exported goods etc.
What's confusing and conflicting with the "Leave" campaign is that on the one hand they say we get back less than half of the 350 million, but then they also state that the EU is costing us 350 million a week. Well, if we get something back then it's not costing us that much. That would be like saying I buy a house for 100,000 and that it has cost me 100,000. In reality, I've got a house worth 100,000 for my money, so it's not actually cost me anything, I've just converted monetary value to an asset. Even if I take out a mortgage, I could say that the cost is in the interest I have to pay on the mortgage, but inevitably over time, the value of the house would increase, so even if I paid another 5,000 in interest over the time of the mortgage, if the house value increased to 150,000 I've actually gained on my investment, and the house has not cost me anything. "cost" is certainly a bad word to use and I think is misleading and perhaps scaremongering without appropriate justification or facts.
The other thing in the "Leave" campaign that I found confusing was... and I quote:
If we Vote Leave... We will take back control. We will stop sending £350 million of our money to Brussels every week and instead spend it on our priorities like the NHS
Well, ok, if we leave, the government has £350 million a week more in it's coffers. But how it's spent is not up the Vote Leave campaign, so how can they suggest that it will go to the NHS (something that is a big thing for many of the public) when they actually have no influence themselves. It could just as easily go into the defence budget, or paying benefits for the increased cases of immigration. It sounds very much like an empty promise.
They also say
We will have more international influence and use it to encourage more friendly international cooperation.
yet no evidence of how that will be achieved or even what it means exactly. As far as I'm aware, we already have friendly international cooperation, and anywhere that isn't friendly with us isn't going to just become friendly because we're not in the EU any more.
Then conversely on the Stay In campaign, they say
EU membership adds up to £91 billion a year to the UK economy - meaning more money to invest in the NHS
But no indication how the £91 billion actually relates to the NHS, or why the NHS is currently undergoing cuts in it's departments and services if there is so much money to invest.
It does concern me that leaving will have a negative effect on the economics and trade deals we have with other EU countries. It's all fine the Vote Leave campaign saying that we will negotiate new trade deals, but that doesn't mean that those new deals will be the same or any better, whereas there's great likelihood that such deals would be worse simply because we are no longer an EU member. They could almost say "these are the terms of the deal, and if you don't like it, tough luck, you take it or leave it" and that deal doesn't have to be within the constraints laid down by EU laws and limitations. That's seriously risky from what I can see.
So, overall it seems we have our current EU membership which we know has issues that need dealing with to improve it, and we know it places some restrictions on what we can do, but on the other hand we have a completely unknown situation out of the EU with unknown trade deals, and an unknown future. If I was at a gambling table and had to play some money on A) a situation where you know you will only get 50% of your money back or B) a situation where you may get back more money but you may also get nothing, I'd have to, currently, opt for A, the more guaranteed option even though it's at a loss. option B is also a potential loss, and there are too many unknowns for me at the minute.
I'm just looking for someone or somewhere I can find some unbiased facts. Unfortunately that's not easy.
I'm glad that some body has brought up this subject. This is a incredible important decision yet so little has been honestly presented for anyone to make an informed decision.
I am still not sure which way to go. I do feel concerned over the number of country's being admitted to the EU and because of the free access policy there is the distinct possibility of the United Kingdom being "overrun". We are not that wealthy or have the land to afford all the extra amenities to cater for all the diverse nationals that would want access to education, housing, and to our health system etcetera.
A very large part of the revenue that keeps this country buoyant comes from the Banking sector. Europe is consistently trying o get its hands on this "golden goose". I fit succeeds then our personal taxes will have to rise to compensate.
I am not too happy about the dilution of our core social and religious beliefs either. We are a fairly tolerant and open nation but some of the religions and social beliefs that have already found there way here include practices that are alien to these shores. This in my opinion can only get worse and could lead to social unrest, if not outright hostility.
I am not happy about Americas influence in the EU. That trade agreement they are trying to push through would have an immense impact on our lives. The US is governed by big business, the Drug industry and the Arms industry. I read somewhere that in the States a cure cannot be considered unless a recognised "drug" was involved. If that policy was introduced here our Alterative medical practices would go out of the door.
Yet there are un doubtable many advantages in staying in the EU. Business, research, educational, interchange of workers, travel, etc these are all the benefits we presently enjoy by staying in the EU. I also want to keep the European Human Rights act. I do not trust our politicians to honour all the protection that the European one has. I also would not want to see Scotland leaving the United Kingdom should we leave the EU. I can see Russian annoyance intrusion over the northern isles increasing because Scotland would not have the United Kingdom air cover it enjoys now nor would there be proper protection for the northern fishing fleets or oil installations. It could become very messy.
If the EU would only amend its free boarder policy then I think that most people would feel happier and be more likely to want to stay in the EU.
Glad you brought up the "free movement of people" thing as that's something else in the leaflet that concerned me.
I think that part of the leaflet was very misleading, and I've even spoken with a staunch "Leave" supporter who ranted (for want of a better word) about "all those immigrants coming across in boats are free to come into our country and we can't do anything about it because of the f**king EU" (and yes it was that strongly worded).
The leaflet itself states:
EU Law control UK migration policy - more than a quarter of a million people came to the UK from the EU in the past 12 months - the equivalent of a city the size of Newcastle, if this continued for a decade, there will be over 2 million extra people. EU law means all members must accept free movement of people. Many migrant contribute to society. They also effect public services.
Firstly EU law doesn't completely control UK migration policy.
When I looked this up here:
I read this bit:
Directives: Each EU country must incorporate directives into its national law by a certain deadline. While directives are binding as to the results to be achieved, individual countries can choose the form and methods.
Most EU-wide immigration rules come from directives.
Exceptions to EU-wide rules
EU-wide immigration rules generally apply in 24 out of the EU’s 27 countries. The following exceptions apply:
Denmark does not apply EU-wide rules which relate to immigration, visa and asylum policies.
Ireland and the United Kingdom choose, on a case-by-case basis, whether or not to adopt EU rules on immigration, visa and asylum policies.
Which would suggest to me that what the Leave campaign is saying is completely false and misleading people.
a) the countries have the ability to choose their own form and methods of implementing the immigration directives of the EU and
b) Ireland and the UK are with the exceptions to the EU-wide rules, in that we choose on a case by case basis whether or not to adopt this rules etc.
The quote from the Leave campaign also says that more than a quarter of a million people came to the UK in the last 12 months. Now, based on all the recent media around migrant troubles from war-torn countries, and the people crossing the Mediterranean by boat etc. most people's focus will be on those people, and automatically assume that the quarter of a million is all those people (as the person I ... was spoken 'at' by... obviously believed).
Doing my own research, I came across this site: which appears to be independent and non-political.
Looking at the figures ending Sept 2015, net migration of non-EU people was about 191,000 (273,000 came, but also 82,000 left)
The others were EU members, or even British citizens (87,000 British arrived, though 127,000 left - so British are immigrants almost as much as others are hehe! at least in different countries)
The projection of their quarter of a million over 10 years is just misleading and wrong to do. Nobody knows what is going to happen in Europe in the next 10 years, whether it's with wars, politics, or economics, so it's pure speculation and scaremongering to suggest that in 10 years time there will be over 2 million more people. Note, they used the words "will be" rather than "may be"... if they're that good at predicting the future, we should get them here on HP's "Readings" forum offering to predict people's futures LOL!
Yes, EU law does allow free movement of people, but that applies to EU people, and others who are visiting with passports and appropriate visas. It is not a blanket "anyone can come in" as is suggested by the words "EU law means all members must accept free movement of people" as if it means that we must allow anyone from anywhere into the country. If that was the case we wouldn't have border controls of any sort.
Having read the campaign of the Leave group again, it becomes even more worrying that people will believe without question what they say, without checking the facts for themselves (which is what I'm trying to do). In fact the majority of the Leave campaign wording seems heavily focused on their belief that the EU allows migrants into the country and we have no control over it. Very little of the campaign is focused on business, economics, and what benefits we get from being in the EU.
(not the end - just posting this as an interim - whilst still looking things up about both campaigns)
In relation to the Stay campaign, I'm trying to source facts and figures to see how much they may be inflating their positive spin on things.
Certainly there's a link to the CBI (which is one of their sources): and they certainly seem to be in favour (and quote lots of figures) for the benefits of being in the EU.
Not sure how unbiased "The Week" is, but it provides a lot of discussion on both sides:
And just for interest, the FT has got a poll of polls tracker...
I am not happy about Americas influence in the EU. That trade agreement they are trying to push through would have an immense impact on our lives. The US is governed by big business, the Drug industry and the Arms industry. I read somewhere that in the States a cure cannot be considered unless a recognised "drug" was involved. If that policy was introduced here our Alterative medical practices would go out of the door.
That's one of the things about the Stay In campaign that does concern me.
Sure, I've no problem with us doing business and deals with the US, but the TTIP could have serious implications (and seems to be being dealt with behind closed doors a lot) for our food, our drugs and healthcare, and could certainly have an impact on things we don't know about yet.
Even in this country, people can't claim to "cure" something, so it's not unique to the U.S. and I think our restriction on people using the claim of "cure" is already more strict than in the U.S. anyway.
I'm a 'leaver'. Having lived for 5 years in Brussels, I've witnessed the absurdity involved with running the EEC. We will be fine on our own. I didn't vote join in 1975 - I went to listen to an politician at a community centre in west London, who was campaigning we join 'the common market', told the gullible audience that we would definitely get cheaper fags, booze and (rather obscure even then!) cosmetics.....
Giles, i must admit i have not studied the issue with as much detail as you seem to have. Iam impressed by your earnestnes to study in depth before you decide.
My decision is based purely the way i make most of my decisions. Feeling right, or feeling wrong....I hear you muse...how random can you get....yeah i know!
To me, the whole energy of EU feels hugely skewed. Right from its conceptual stage and how britain got her membership into that club..the whole thing is energetically flawed.
it is getting progressively murky by the day. I don't see common sense, plenty of faffy, unclear and knee jerk policies.
it is too diverse a club...too big to work as a unit...the seeds of its demise were inherent in its conceptualization. There is utter lack of insightful leadership.
Thanks, Giles. Interesting and informative.
I'm for staying. The job situation in England might be in dispute but no one is really able to say that many jobs in Wales (1 in 6, I believe) are not dependant on the EU. It comes of being primarily a farming place. As for the NHS, and TTIP - we will still have a Tory government for at least another 4 years. They will have sold the NHS and signed up for TTIP whether we are in or out. But no reason is as strong for me as the one that goes - I have many European friends. Why would I not want to work with them?
By the way, no one is saying this but referendums are not legally binding. Cameron can decide, whichever way the vote goes. And considering the Tories abilities to skew the last general election, do you really think he'd let us leave? Or even tell us that he'd lost the voting? Okay - the EU isn't completely democratic. Neither is the UK.
Giles, i must admit i have not studied the issue with as much detail as you seem to have. Iam impressed by your earnestnes to study in depth before you decide.
My decision is based purely the way i make most of my decisions. Feeling right, or feeling wrong....I hear you muse...how random can you get....yeah i know!To me, the whole energy of EU feels hugely skewed. Right from its conceptual stage and how britain got her membership into that club..the whole thing is energetically flawed.
it is getting progressively murky by the day. I don't see common sense, plenty of faffy, unclear and knee jerk policies.
it is too diverse a club...too big to work as a unit...the seeds of its demise were inherent in its conceptualization. There is utter lack of insightful leadership.
Likewise Ruby, my initial thoughts were gut reactions, but then I was getting a feeling from "vote leave" people that they were acting on anger (and in some cases racism - which is sad) and not on informed facts. The feeling from the "stay in" people is similarly disturbing in some cases, but more from fear than anger and little in the way of racism.
It was the muddiness that made me think "hang on I can't just vote on gut feeling for this, it's a big decision" and made me want to look into the facts.
Likewise Ruby, my initial thoughts were gut reactions, but then I was getting a feeling from "vote leave" people that they were acting on anger (and in some cases racism - which is sad) and not on informed facts. The feeling from the "stay in" people is similarly disturbing in some cases, but more from fear than anger and little in the way of racism.
It was the muddiness that made me think "hang on I can't just vote on gut feeling for this, it's a big decision" and made me want to look into the facts.
I know what you mean...
Leavers for anger...stayers for sly and fear. It could be as broad as that.
It is preposterous to think one can know all that is there to know in a situation. We can learn as much as we possibly can( probably akin to tip of the ice berg) and then make a decision that sits well with us.
Ultimately it is one's gut that decides. One's own common sense
It is worth researching the early days of Britain trying to get it into that club and being snubbed...and the chain of events that followed that. The European leaders attitude towards Britain....all that is worth understanding. Direction of energy was a bit weird to say the least and it has going on in the same direction. It was a Tory ( Edward Heath, wasn't it?) agenda to get UK into the EU. MORE THEY COULDN't get in, more they wanted to. Reverse psychology. General public weren't happy back then.
Glad you mentioned racism
Racism ..every single person has biases. It is worrying how label like ' racist' is commonly used to hush people up. Personal choices, preferences, use of common sense...is not racism. We are all racist in varying degrees.
Racism is irrational fear, dislike, separation that oozes out and acts itself out in real situations. How often that happens? Yet people most still have strong opinions on the quiet.
'Racist' is a word coined to keep people separate. Keep them playing the game of offense and defense. This is totally mis understood, mis used, over exploited and repressive word
Some concerns are rational.
It is unwise to hold the flag of an ideology, if it does not meet even meet up with standards laid out by common sense. Life cannot be a projection.it has to be a real response or It will be phoney and hollow. Real unity starts from the immediate unit that we live in- family, village, town, city....thinking of Britain as a family does not make one racist.
To be able to help others, one has to be in state of peace, prosperity, harmony, clarity, the house must be in order and it cannot happen if my neighbour is laying out rules, directives for how we run our house.
especially when the neighbour is almost the cusp of dissolution of EU,
This club is bound to dissemble, as all clubs eventually do. It is imploding as we watch it. Big clubs are never formed out of philosophy, they have a projection, but it is always political agenda of power and greed at the very core of them. Eu is no different. Had it been for any philosophical ideology...it would have made Europe a better place, the world much better place. So much unity would have had ripple effect on planets peace. But it just contributed to what it is at the very core. it is carrying on exactly as it always did. Ruptured, dysfunctional, disharmonious, controlling
All discourses, philosophies done and dusted, one is left with one's little family to take care of...and that must be done diligently. that applies to us all. Same is true to bigger units such as nations. I would have to make sure my immediate ones are looked after, well fed and safe, before I go helping others. Otherwise who can I help? I am lying. I must be seen as a great helper. This is the folly we see in today's world...we see, we all want to reach out far and wide...just not interested in looking immediately under our nose. Becoming available to what is right under our nose. Tending to immediate concerns of my family, my village, my town....my planet. As they say "take care of pennies...." Small, immediate is what needs our attention and service the most.
World is one family, is how one lives within one's heart....mind cleared of mine-thine. When the highest of philosophies are integrated in one's living experience, one is liberated of all philosophies. common sense prevails. If that does not happen, then it is certain philosophies were mere learnt words. World is full of philosophers today, more of them today than in any other time. 'Philosophers' are often in denial of real and often lack common sense and spine to call a spade a spade. When some do they are at the risk of being called racist, angry, retaliating.
It is a skewed world
I can't see Britain leaving, but I would love her to
Whatever the result of this referendum...it is fun and games alright!
Ruby, I know some of the history behind the UK joining the EU back then, however, I'm hearing a lot from people going on about how it was back then... how it was initially just 9 countries, and now it's 27 etc. but so what... that was then and this is Now... things have certainly changes a lot since those days. 27 countries is stronger than 9 countries when they work together, and sure, yes, there are going to be differences of opinion, just like if you took 27 people and put them in a room to try and agree on something, but how much better would it be with 26 people in the room and 1 on the outside trying to get their agreement on something they wanted?
The number of countries thing trying to worry people doesn't stick it with me.
Sure, some of the countries are not as wealthy, sure some of those countries have people who come to the UK to seek work, but then some of the UK people go abroad to seek work, or to take up living in a warmer climate etc. Give and take, that's what it's about, and that's what the freedom of movement is about in reality, nothing to do with the scaremongering immigration.
So, whether you are in a club, or whether you are an individual, there will always be arguments to be had, just that in the club, people have agreed to generally agree on the debating rules.
You say the clubs are about a political agenda, but then so is the 'independent' club. It's not about giving power back to the individual members of the public, it's about trying to sway political power in their favour to make the existing powers seem weak and then take control for themselves, where 'they' (whoever they are) will dictate the rules that they want. From what I've seen there's a lot of people quoting the "we'll get our power back" but they are mistaken if they think the "we" is them as an individual.
When I refer to racism, I'm referring to the attitudes of those who are shouting about the immigrants, often in a way that say "go back to your own country", that sort of extreme racism that hurts people and causes conflict. That won't help anyone, and will just act to segregate people.
Real unity starts from the immediate unit that we live in- family, village, town, city....thinking of Britain as a family does not make one racist.
Sure, but when it stops at Britain and doesn't accept that Britain is part of the world, then it's a problem. We should surely all be concerned with the good of every person regardless of where they are from.
It is a skewed world
I can't see Britain leaving, but I would love her to
Whatever the result of this referendum...it is fun and games alright!
It certainly is a skewed world, and, at present, I don't think Britain going off at a tangent is going to help unskew it... if anything it will create more skew.
"fun and games"... well, yes... fun to discuss, but also a game with very serious potential consequences.
If we sit down gleaning pros and cons, quite honestly that is beyond the scope of a qualified barristers even, let alone joe public. Even a simple contract with a phone company is so technical, the terms and conditions so profuse, verbose and deliberately technical....nobody bothers, just put a signature and pretend that we know roughly what it means...then the company can mysteriously start charging more, you question, they quite legitimately snub you off with "it is included in the terms and conditions" Utter skulduggery. Just imagine the length of all deals, contracts, rules, caveats, clauses, sub clauses and endless legal and technical intricacies of European Union. Library full of that stuff and non sense
The system has gotten so big overtime it has got fuzzy, blurred, open to interpretation, exploitation...devouring any remote possibility of individuals having any meaningful intellectual grip on it. No one knows, not even the people who had originally laid down these rules and deals, or those who studies and qualified to understand them, even they only understand a small section/ portion of it....differnt expert to interpret and represent different sections like border control, currency, laws about food, agriculture, land management, fertilizers, standard maintenance of million things. All covered...all open to interpretation. All warped skillfully, when need arises.
Prey, how can a layman be ever in a position to know ins and outs of this gigantic jargon?
No one knows for sure. Quite simply, Nobody can. Mr Cameron does not know, the European chief, whoever he is, doesn't know. They are all aiming in the dark directed by their own projections, aims and agendas. So are we, the public, both pros and opposing. We are all working with gumption, Not facts. No matter how deeply we try to study, or pretend we know what's what....
Truth is there are no facts. A System gets so big overtime, it inevitably goes beyond anybody's grasp. It is all a shot in the dark.
Inner feeling is the only way one can respond...whether that is rooted in fear, anger or any other emotion...it does not matter. It is going to be an emotional response rather than a well informed decision.
There is no way to be well informed about a giant as big as EU.
It is open to manipulation. The most manipulative side wins....just like all elections. The illusion of choice continues....
If we sit down gleaning pros and cons, quite honestly that is beyond the scope of a qualified barristers even, let alone joe public. Even a simple contract with a phone company is so technical, the terms and conditions so profuse, verbose and deliberately technical....nobody bothers, just put a signature and pretend that we know roughly what it means...then the company can mysteriously start charging more, you question, they quite legitimately snub you off with "it is included in the terms and conditions" Utter skulduggery. Just imagine the length of all deals, contracts, rules, caveats, clauses, sub clauses and endless legal and technical intricacies of European Union. Library full of that stuff and non sense
The system has gotten so big overtime it has got fuzzy, blurred, open to interpretation, exploitation...devouring any remote possibility of individuals having any meaningful intellectual grip on it. No one knows, not even the people who had originally laid down these rules and deals, or those who studies and qualified to understand them, even they only understand a small section/ portion of it....differnt expert to interpret and represent different sections like border control, currency, laws about food, agriculture, land management, fertilizers, standard maintenance of million things. All covered...all open to interpretation. All warped skillfully, when need arises.
Prey, how can a layman be ever in a position to know ins and outs of this gigantic jargon?
No one knows for sure. Quite simply, Nobody can. Mr Cameron does not know, the European chief, whoever he is, doesn't know. They are all aiming in the dark directed by their own projections, aims and agendas. So are we, the public, both pros and opposing. We are all working with gumption, Not facts. No matter how deeply we try to study, or pretend we know what's what....Truth is there are no facts. A System gets so big overtime, it inevitably goes beyond anybody's grasp. It is all a shot in the dark.
Inner feeling is the only way one can respond...whether that is rooted in fear, anger or any other emotion...it does not matter. It is going to be an emotional response rather than a well informed decision.
There is no way to be well informed about a giant as big as EU.
It is open to manipulation. The most manipulative side wins....just like all elections. The illusion of choice continues....
I take it your undecided then 
I take it your undecided then
Haha! on the contrary, I have been single minded for ages to leave
I vote that we should leave EU. Our rights are taken away and many more to come. Imagine a faceless, identity-less country(?) Can you call that a country? It will be one big state, like the US. You know I am against the one world government. Bad news.
David Icke mentioned about countries joining together many moons ago prior to the EU being formed.
He went on speak about the control aspect that would lead to unrest and the formation of 'one' army to monitor / control which brussels is already entertaining the idea of a military merger as we speak.
It seems as if things are going from bad to worse, it can never end well when governments lose control over their own country.
It is a recipe for disaster, no-one likes to be controlled do they in such a way where one abide's by another say so.
What seems almost farcical is the amount of lies are being spoken of regarding what will supposedly happen if we stay in or vote out.
I mean isn't there any unbiased governing body that can give us accurate information?
I do shake my head at all the antics that are ongoing and it beggars belief that these people supposedly are the cream of the crop running our country.
I have no faith in any of them to be honest and I don't think it's going to matter what the result of the vote is because I think the powers that be won't allow us to leave.
It's funny that most of the general public / working class when you read comments on the web pages that run the stories is that there is an overwhelming support for leaving the EU and yet headlines suggest that the trend is swinging in the other direction ..
I think if true, such propaganda will make it easier to fix the result come what may.
I vote that we should leave EU. Our rights are taken away and many more to come. Imagine a faceless, identity-less country(?) Can you call that a country? It will be one big state, like the US. You know I am against the one world government. Bad news.
So, instead you're happy with a one country government, likewise dictating your rights or lack of rights, and you will be without the protections that come from a more general consensus of what is acceptable (such as some of the things the EU has put in place). The way you speak makes it sound like you believe leaving the EU will give you the personal freedom to do whatever you choose, as if there won't be a government telling you what you can and can't do.
David Icke mentioned about countries joining together many moons ago prior to the EU being formed.
He went on speak about the control aspect that would lead to unrest and the formation of 'one' army to monitor / control which brussels is already entertaining the idea of a military merger as we speak.
It seems as if things are going from bad to worse, it can never end well when governments lose control over their own country.
It is a recipe for disaster, no-one likes to be controlled do they in such a way where one abide's by another say so.
Wherever there is the concept of "them and us" there will be conflict, whether that is a few large them's and us's, or lots of smaller them's and us's.
What seems almost farcical is the amount of lies are being spoken of regarding what will supposedly happen if we stay in or vote out.
Which was one of the reasons I started this thread, to see if there were any "facts" that we could make any informed decision on.
I mean isn't there any unbiased governing body that can give us accurate information?
Well, wherever things are compared, there will be bias, that's a natural part of comparison. Some people will include certain things and exclude others as part of the comparison, whilst others will do the opposite. The amount of money we pay in to the EU and the amount we get back is a good example of this.
I do shake my head at all the antics that are ongoing and it beggars belief that these people supposedly are the cream of the crop running our country.
"cream of the crop"... LOL! That's another debate to be had.
I have no faith in any of them to be honest and I don't think it's going to matter what the result of the vote is because I think the powers that be won't allow us to leave.
Could be political suicide if the vote goes one way and the 'powers' choose to do something else.
It's funny that most of the general public / working class when you read comments on the web pages that run the stories is that there is an overwhelming support for leaving the EU and yet headlines suggest that the trend is swinging in the other direction ..
I think if true, such propaganda will make it easier to fix the result come what may.
I think it depends what you're reading and who's producing it. I'm not sure there is "overwhelming support" for leaving the EU. I've come across pretty much an equal number of people on both sides from various walks of life. "working class" is quite a large spectrum of people, and a lot of the decision making (as I indicated earlier on) seems to be based on fears or racism, depending on their social background as much as anything.
Cameron and his buddies scare me a lot more than the EU does - not least because most of my English friends (though not the Welsh ones) have given up believing they can have any control of governmental behaviour, while my European friends are still willing to 'fight' (i.e. in a non-violent way).
Wherever there is the concept of "them and us" there will be conflict, whether that is a few large them's and us's, or lots of smaller them's and us's.
Which was one of the reasons I started this thread, to see if there were any "facts" that we could make any informed decision on.
Well, wherever things are compared, there will be bias, that's a natural part of comparison. Some people will include certain things and exclude others as part of the comparison, whilst others will do the opposite. The amount of money we pay in to the EU and the amount we get back is a good example of this.
"cream of the crop"... LOL! That's another debate to be had.
Could be political suicide if the vote goes one way and the 'powers' choose to do something else.
I think it depends what you're reading and who's producing it. I'm not sure there is "overwhelming support" for leaving the EU. I've come across pretty much an equal number of people on both sides from various walks of life. "working class" is quite a large spectrum of people, and a lot of the decision making (as I indicated earlier on) seems to be based on fears or racism, depending on their social background as much as anything.
I would say there is always going to be a them and an us whether it's on a level of 'us' brits and 'them 'germans' or whether it's down to the working class and the upper class .
There seems in my eyes such a lack of fair play and common sense that lies behind all what's going on .
It seems that the bureaucrats see life one way and it isn't the way of the working man .
When Iain Duncan smith said he could live on £53 a week benefits wouldn't perhaps cover his weekly wine bill lol
In regards to facts about what will happen either way I don't think that there will be any real facts until after the event .
Its difficult to believe anything that these government figureheads say ..
I think the issue with the migrants and the whole open the gates policy caused so many problems and the supposed leader of the whole shebang Mrs Merkel is seriously missing some vital common sense ... I didn't see her open her doors to allow a family of migrants live in her house did you? 
So when we base what's happened so far with what is supposed to happen if we bail out, leaves some serious questions ..
Although, of course, the UK doesn't have an 'open door policy', nor does the EU - except in the minds of Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage et al.
Agree with you there Crowan.
The immigration figures are also misrepresented by people who think it's just homeless immigrants from war torn countries coming to claim benefits and use our health system. The figures actually include those who come here to work for 12 months or more, who may be employed already by UK or international companies, who pay their taxes, have their own health insurance, and contribute to the UK and EU economies; plus there are British citizens who've lived abroad and have returned to live in Britain again. These are all considered part of the 'migration' figures that are so often misrepresented by those trying to scare people into thinking that 'they're all coming into our country and stealing our jobs'.
Cameron and his buddies scare me a lot more than the EU does - not least because most of my English friends (though not the Welsh ones) have given up believing they can have any control of governmental behaviour, while my European friends are still willing to 'fight' (i.e. in a non-violent way).
This is the one thing that could sway me to vote stay.. We seem at times to have "given up" whereas the European will still go out onto the streets to defend a principle.
From "The London Economic" Facebook page
Meanwhile some news has emerged...
Perhaps what's most scary about this referendum is that ordinary folk will vote on an extraordinary situation with even less understanding of issues than they usually have in a General Election! At least in them we have a chance of changing things every few years whereas the outcome of the vote to leave or stay will have unchangeable consequences that will affect the UK for decades and perhaps longer.
A 'leave' outcome provides the potential - but not the certainty - of controlling our borders. Desired trade deals might see the UK having to accept free movement of workers as part of the deal. A 'leave' vote would allow us to exercise sovereignty and would stop us having to pay into the EU. The potential impact on our economy and on growth is conjecture. These are issues I've heard a lot about in the campaigns.
A 'stay' outcome leaves the UK facing potentially huge numbers of immigrants understandably attracted to our country - we've all heard the reasons why - it's a great place to live at the moment. We would continue to be able to control immigration only of non-EU immigrants. The impact of 3 times the promised net immigration levels can already be seen. In years ahead the effects of the same or an increasing level of net immigration is uncertain but could profoundly change the UK. The effect on our economy, growth, infrastructure and jobs etc. of remaining in the EU is hotly debated and experts don't agree.
We can all argue amongst ourselves just as experts do but where does it leave the ordinary Joe and Josephine as they get ready to vote? Neither we nor the experts have any idea about the totality of what's going to happen whatever way the UK majority votes. My guess is that vote will be very close. Perhaps we shouldn't change anything unless there's a bigger majority, perhaps a minimum of 60/40?
A simple majority over such an important issue is surely not the best way? It's too late to change it now though.....
Something I read regarding the pound diving in value that relates to the possibility of the U.K. voting out ..
Here is a comment made ..
NORWAY rejected the EU TWICE. They were told the Same LIES that are being told to the UK.
You will lose JOBS.
The FISHERIES will be RUINED
The EU won't LISTEN to you.
YOU will be ISOLATED
INNOVATION and BUSINESS will LOSE OUT
NOBODY will Invest in NORWAY
YOUR Interest will be SKY HIGH
YOUR Currency will DECLINE
What happened, NORWAY has Low Interest and HIGH EMPLOYMENT indeed the lowest Unemployment in Europe. They have a Standard of Living HIGHER then the UK and better average Incomes.
NORWAY does not pay a fee to trade with the EU. Last year it paid them £650 Million not as a fee but for a Project they were interested in Pursuing. That's less than the UK pays in 2 WEEKS.
You would have to be a fool not to recognise that many of these SCARE stories that come out Daily do have more than a whiff of desperation in them in fact I would go so far as to say STENCH of trying to Scare people into voting to stay. The sort of Propaganda made by Joseph Goebbels for Hitler or is that Dodgy Dave, with all the sanity of Kim Jong-un.
They constantly suggest that they are winning when the truth is that the Remain Camp are as REAL as Patton's Army in Kent in 1944, the one Hitler and his generals expected to cross from Dover to Calais. That was done by a Government as well.
It was said that on Saturday the 14th May that the Remain Camp would have 4,000 teams across the UK. Nobody knows where as NONE were seen.
These Daily Scare stories are the result of the fact that there is not much interest in staying in the EU and they know it these stories will get Madder and Madder as the Referendum approaches, suggesting this and that, what next WAR no can't be Dodgy Dave has already suggested that.
It is quite amusing that despite what is said by the Remain Camp that former French President Nicolas Sarkozy and the Italian prime Minister think we are right to complain and leave as do many other National Leaders in the EU. Poland and Hungary are fed up to the teeth with the EU