If we sit down gleaning pros and cons, quite honestly that is beyond the scope of a qualified barristers even, let alone joe public. Even a simple contract with a phone company is so technical, the terms and conditions so profuse, verbose and deliberately technical....nobody bothers, just put a signature and pretend that we know roughly what it means...then the company can mysteriously start charging more, you question, they quite legitimately snub you off with "it is included in the terms and conditions" Utter skulduggery. Just imagine the length of all deals, contracts, rules, caveats, clauses, sub clauses and endless legal and technical intricacies of European Union. Library full of that stuff and non sense
The system has gotten so big overtime it has got fuzzy, blurred, open to interpretation, exploitation...devouring any remote possibility of individuals having any meaningful intellectual grip on it. No one knows, not even the people who had originally laid down these rules and deals, or those who studies and qualified to understand them, even they only understand a small section/ portion of it....differnt expert to interpret and represent different sections like border control, currency, laws about food, agriculture, land management, fertilizers, standard maintenance of million things. All covered...all open to interpretation. All warped skillfully, when need arises.
Prey, how can a layman be ever in a position to know ins and outs of this gigantic jargon?
No one knows for sure. Quite simply, Nobody can. Mr Cameron does not know, the European chief, whoever he is, doesn't know. They are all aiming in the dark directed by their own projections, aims and agendas. So are we, the public, both pros and opposing. We are all working with gumption, Not facts. No matter how deeply we try to study, or pretend we know what's what....Truth is there are no facts. A System gets so big overtime, it inevitably goes beyond anybody's grasp. It is all a shot in the dark.
Inner feeling is the only way one can respond...whether that is rooted in fear, anger or any other emotion...it does not matter. It is going to be an emotional response rather than a well informed decision.
There is no way to be well informed about a giant as big as EU.
It is open to manipulation. The most manipulative side wins....just like all elections. The illusion of choice continues....
I take it your undecided then 😉
I take it your undecided then 😉
Haha! on the contrary, I have been single minded for ages to leave
I vote that we should leave EU. Our rights are taken away and many more to come. Imagine a faceless, identity-less country(?) Can you call that a country? It will be one big state, like the US. You know I am against the one world government. Bad news.
David Icke mentioned about countries joining together many moons ago prior to the EU being formed.
He went on speak about the control aspect that would lead to unrest and the formation of 'one' army to monitor / control which brussels is already entertaining the idea of a military merger as we speak.
It seems as if things are going from bad to worse, it can never end well when governments lose control over their own country.
It is a recipe for disaster, no-one likes to be controlled do they in such a way where one abide's by another say so.
What seems almost farcical is the amount of lies are being spoken of regarding what will supposedly happen if we stay in or vote out.
I mean isn't there any unbiased governing body that can give us accurate information?
I do shake my head at all the antics that are ongoing and it beggars belief that these people supposedly are the cream of the crop running our country.
I have no faith in any of them to be honest and I don't think it's going to matter what the result of the vote is because I think the powers that be won't allow us to leave.
It's funny that most of the general public / working class when you read comments on the web pages that run the stories is that there is an overwhelming support for leaving the EU and yet headlines suggest that the trend is swinging in the other direction ..
I think if true, such propaganda will make it easier to fix the result come what may.
I vote that we should leave EU. Our rights are taken away and many more to come. Imagine a faceless, identity-less country(?) Can you call that a country? It will be one big state, like the US. You know I am against the one world government. Bad news.
So, instead you're happy with a one country government, likewise dictating your rights or lack of rights, and you will be without the protections that come from a more general consensus of what is acceptable (such as some of the things the EU has put in place). The way you speak makes it sound like you believe leaving the EU will give you the personal freedom to do whatever you choose, as if there won't be a government telling you what you can and can't do.
David Icke mentioned about countries joining together many moons ago prior to the EU being formed.
He went on speak about the control aspect that would lead to unrest and the formation of 'one' army to monitor / control which brussels is already entertaining the idea of a military merger as we speak.
It seems as if things are going from bad to worse, it can never end well when governments lose control over their own country.
It is a recipe for disaster, no-one likes to be controlled do they in such a way where one abide's by another say so.
Wherever there is the concept of "them and us" there will be conflict, whether that is a few large them's and us's, or lots of smaller them's and us's.
What seems almost farcical is the amount of lies are being spoken of regarding what will supposedly happen if we stay in or vote out.
Which was one of the reasons I started this thread, to see if there were any "facts" that we could make any informed decision on.
I mean isn't there any unbiased governing body that can give us accurate information?
Well, wherever things are compared, there will be bias, that's a natural part of comparison. Some people will include certain things and exclude others as part of the comparison, whilst others will do the opposite. The amount of money we pay in to the EU and the amount we get back is a good example of this.
I do shake my head at all the antics that are ongoing and it beggars belief that these people supposedly are the cream of the crop running our country.
"cream of the crop"... LOL! That's another debate to be had.
I have no faith in any of them to be honest and I don't think it's going to matter what the result of the vote is because I think the powers that be won't allow us to leave.
Could be political suicide if the vote goes one way and the 'powers' choose to do something else.
It's funny that most of the general public / working class when you read comments on the web pages that run the stories is that there is an overwhelming support for leaving the EU and yet headlines suggest that the trend is swinging in the other direction ..
I think if true, such propaganda will make it easier to fix the result come what may.
I think it depends what you're reading and who's producing it. I'm not sure there is "overwhelming support" for leaving the EU. I've come across pretty much an equal number of people on both sides from various walks of life. "working class" is quite a large spectrum of people, and a lot of the decision making (as I indicated earlier on) seems to be based on fears or racism, depending on their social background as much as anything.
Cameron and his buddies scare me a lot more than the EU does - not least because most of my English friends (though not the Welsh ones) have given up believing they can have any control of governmental behaviour, while my European friends are still willing to 'fight' (i.e. in a non-violent way).
Wherever there is the concept of "them and us" there will be conflict, whether that is a few large them's and us's, or lots of smaller them's and us's.
Which was one of the reasons I started this thread, to see if there were any "facts" that we could make any informed decision on.
Well, wherever things are compared, there will be bias, that's a natural part of comparison. Some people will include certain things and exclude others as part of the comparison, whilst others will do the opposite. The amount of money we pay in to the EU and the amount we get back is a good example of this.
"cream of the crop"... LOL! That's another debate to be had.
Could be political suicide if the vote goes one way and the 'powers' choose to do something else.
I think it depends what you're reading and who's producing it. I'm not sure there is "overwhelming support" for leaving the EU. I've come across pretty much an equal number of people on both sides from various walks of life. "working class" is quite a large spectrum of people, and a lot of the decision making (as I indicated earlier on) seems to be based on fears or racism, depending on their social background as much as anything.
I would say there is always going to be a them and an us whether it's on a level of 'us' brits and 'them 'germans' or whether it's down to the working class and the upper class .
There seems in my eyes such a lack of fair play and common sense that lies behind all what's going on .
It seems that the bureaucrats see life one way and it isn't the way of the working man .
When Iain Duncan smith said he could live on £53 a week benefits wouldn't perhaps cover his weekly wine bill lol
In regards to facts about what will happen either way I don't think that there will be any real facts until after the event .
Its difficult to believe anything that these government figureheads say ..
I think the issue with the migrants and the whole open the gates policy caused so many problems and the supposed leader of the whole shebang Mrs Merkel is seriously missing some vital common sense ... I didn't see her open her doors to allow a family of migrants live in her house did you? 😀
So when we base what's happened so far with what is supposed to happen if we bail out, leaves some serious questions ..
Although, of course, the UK doesn't have an 'open door policy', nor does the EU - except in the minds of Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage et al.
Agree with you there Crowan.
The immigration figures are also misrepresented by people who think it's just homeless immigrants from war torn countries coming to claim benefits and use our health system. The figures actually include those who come here to work for 12 months or more, who may be employed already by UK or international companies, who pay their taxes, have their own health insurance, and contribute to the UK and EU economies; plus there are British citizens who've lived abroad and have returned to live in Britain again. These are all considered part of the 'migration' figures that are so often misrepresented by those trying to scare people into thinking that 'they're all coming into our country and stealing our jobs'.
Cameron and his buddies scare me a lot more than the EU does - not least because most of my English friends (though not the Welsh ones) have given up believing they can have any control of governmental behaviour, while my European friends are still willing to 'fight' (i.e. in a non-violent way).
This is the one thing that could sway me to vote stay.. We seem at times to have "given up" whereas the European will still go out onto the streets to defend a principle.
From "The London Economic" Facebook page
Meanwhile some news has emerged... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/26/plans-to-create-an-eu-army-kept-secret-from-voters/
Perhaps what's most scary about this referendum is that ordinary folk will vote on an extraordinary situation with even less understanding of issues than they usually have in a General Election! At least in them we have a chance of changing things every few years whereas the outcome of the vote to leave or stay will have unchangeable consequences that will affect the UK for decades and perhaps longer.
A 'leave' outcome provides the potential - but not the certainty - of controlling our borders. Desired trade deals might see the UK having to accept free movement of workers as part of the deal. A 'leave' vote would allow us to exercise sovereignty and would stop us having to pay into the EU. The potential impact on our economy and on growth is conjecture. These are issues I've heard a lot about in the campaigns.
A 'stay' outcome leaves the UK facing potentially huge numbers of immigrants understandably attracted to our country - we've all heard the reasons why - it's a great place to live at the moment. We would continue to be able to control immigration only of non-EU immigrants. The impact of 3 times the promised net immigration levels can already be seen. In years ahead the effects of the same or an increasing level of net immigration is uncertain but could profoundly change the UK. The effect on our economy, growth, infrastructure and jobs etc. of remaining in the EU is hotly debated and experts don't agree.
We can all argue amongst ourselves just as experts do but where does it leave the ordinary Joe and Josephine as they get ready to vote? Neither we nor the experts have any idea about the totality of what's going to happen whatever way the UK majority votes. My guess is that vote will be very close. Perhaps we shouldn't change anything unless there's a bigger majority, perhaps a minimum of 60/40?
A simple majority over such an important issue is surely not the best way? It's too late to change it now though.....
Something I read regarding the pound diving in value that relates to the possibility of the U.K. voting out ..
Here is a comment made ..
NORWAY rejected the EU TWICE. They were told the Same LIES that are being told to the UK.
You will lose JOBS.
The FISHERIES will be RUINED
The EU won't LISTEN to you.
YOU will be ISOLATED
INNOVATION and BUSINESS will LOSE OUT
NOBODY will Invest in NORWAY
YOUR Interest will be SKY HIGH
YOUR Currency will DECLINE
What happened, NORWAY has Low Interest and HIGH EMPLOYMENT indeed the lowest Unemployment in Europe. They have a Standard of Living HIGHER then the UK and better average Incomes.
NORWAY does not pay a fee to trade with the EU. Last year it paid them £650 Million not as a fee but for a Project they were interested in Pursuing. That's less than the UK pays in 2 WEEKS.
You would have to be a fool not to recognise that many of these SCARE stories that come out Daily do have more than a whiff of desperation in them in fact I would go so far as to say STENCH of trying to Scare people into voting to stay. The sort of Propaganda made by Joseph Goebbels for Hitler or is that Dodgy Dave, with all the sanity of Kim Jong-un.
They constantly suggest that they are winning when the truth is that the Remain Camp are as REAL as Patton's Army in Kent in 1944, the one Hitler and his generals expected to cross from Dover to Calais. That was done by a Government as well.
It was said that on Saturday the 14th May that the Remain Camp would have 4,000 teams across the UK. Nobody knows where as NONE were seen.
These Daily Scare stories are the result of the fact that there is not much interest in staying in the EU and they know it these stories will get Madder and Madder as the Referendum approaches, suggesting this and that, what next WAR no can't be Dodgy Dave has already suggested that.
It is quite amusing that despite what is said by the Remain Camp that former French President Nicolas Sarkozy and the Italian prime Minister think we are right to complain and leave as do many other National Leaders in the EU. Poland and Hungary are fed up to the teeth with the EU