resuscitation

For many people these attempts are unsuccessful and achieve nothing but the fact that you ended your life in an extremly undignified way.

I fail to see why that should preclude an attempt. Every life is valuable if it only saves 1% then IMHO it must be tried.

My mother was in hospital after a heart attack and was very week and going down hill. But she was still just able to talk. Basically she told me that she did not want to be a burden to me and mine and was afraid that if she did not get better her house would have to be sold for her long term care. Needless to say I told her I did not care and I wanted her not her money. Anyway after a further couple of attacks and resuscitations I was asked to meet the consultant, when I got to the meeting there was the consultant, a doctor a couple of nurses and another woman who was something to do with social care. Basically they advised me that they would rather not resuscitate again, to which I replied “why” The consultant said that the nurses believed that my mother did not want to continue to live and was just going down hill, to which I replied “xxxxxxxxxx” You xxxxxxxxxxx will resuscitate her she is not in her right mind and is worrying about being a burden on the family and may get better. To which the nurses and the other woman replied yes she is in her right mind we have been with her all the time and we don't see her getting better. Anyway the consultant said to me I can understand what you are saying and you may be right, ok we will resuscitate if needed but we will need to talk to you after if we do. One of the nurses then turned to the other and with what I can only describe as anger in her voice said “It will take a bloody miracle” for her to get better. To cut a long story short I spent a long time with her giving her healing, yes she was resuscitated once more and survived. She is now in her 80’s and is fit as a fiddle and still the life and soul of her bowls club. So miracles do happen and the last thing that I would want is those nurses taking any decision that would effect anyone else’s life. That consultant went against the nurses advice thank god.

I do understand that there are many nurses who care but there are also those who do not. I do not want anyone to take a chance on which one they would get. Remember qualifications alone do not make a good nurse or doctor.

 

Hi Healistic,

I truly understand where you are coming from and I have seen some people successfully resucitated, and I am glad that your mother was one of those.

The point I was trying to make and after seeing and re-reading my post realise that I made very poorly in fact don't think i really did make it.

I am going to go off an get my wording right so that I do not unwittingly not post what i am thinking.

Will be back soon...x

Some of the posts seem to be along the lines of Doctors will value a patients life more than a Nurse will. Nurse's are just as committed as Doctors in saving a patient's life

I actually agree with you that there are many nurses who are totally committed (Some I know are better than some doctors). I belong to a group that actually train nurses in complementary therapies and have met some that are so natural in their holistic approach that it is wonderful to see and feel, but sad to say there are some who will never give to others that natural healing gift, they are just there for a job. We always used to think of all nurses as "Healing Angels" yes even Matrons (I married one). What has gone wrong today??????

Edited to Add: My thoughts are rambling today so sorry if this post does not make any sense!
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After having tried to write this post and re-write it quite a few times I think what needs to be sorted out before deciding who gets to decide whom is resuscitated is to decide on a full set of guidelines as to when and how resuscitation is carried out and when do we let someone die.

Resuscitation will always be a topic of debate and I have seen people who have requested to not be resuscitated have there decision overturned by family, doctors etc.

Likewise at present the guidelines on resuscitation allow a group of individuals to decide whether or not to resuscitate a patient, this group normally consists of consultants, doctors, nurses, social workers family members and wherever possible the patient as well. It is very rarely an individual decision.

As we further develop techniques to keep people alive these issues are going to become increasingly difficult to deal with. Especially when family wishes go against what is either the decision of the patient and or what may be best for that person.

A nurse is normally as qualified to make a decision to resuscitate as a doctor and in most cases will be the first person who notices that a patient does require resuscitating and will call for the ‘crash team’. They will also be the first person along with nursing colleagues to begin the resuscitating attempt.

I know that if my father (who was very ill this year) was to have a heart attack and cardiac arrest I would want him resuscitated. However and I can say this knowing his wishes if he was to be in an accident where there was an exceptionally high risk of him having suffered brain damage then he wouldn’t want to be resuscitated. He has also stated that if he was dying from an illness then he would not want to be resuscitated.

Personally I feel we need to be more open with family and friends about how we want to die, whether we would ever want resuscitating and if yes whether there is ever an occasion where we wouldn’t want resuscitating. In America you will be resuscitated unless you have signed a ‘Do Not Resuscitate’ form and maybe this should be the practice in England.

I keep thinking of the story of that baby who was in the news last year and the case went to the high court, basically parents wanted the doctors to continue resuscitating and doctors wanted there to be an agreement that there would be no more resuscitation attempts. The court decided in favour of the doctors; however the little girl required no more resuscitation attempts and eventually was well enough to go home to parents. Since then parents have split up neither of them can cope with the full-time care of the child as she requires 24/7 specialist care due to her disabilities and she has now been placed in foster care. On the one hand the parents were right to fight as the child has improved sufficiently enough to leave the confines of the hospital environment, but then again the doctors were also right as there argument was that the child was going to have very little if any quality of life and that it was far kinder to not resuscitate.

Sorry I have not got time to read the whole thread. I don't see what the problem is here, as a first aider, I can rescusitate someone - it wouldn't make a difference what my job was or what the environment. Nurses have more than the basic first aid training so would be great in this situation.
Katharine x

Sorry I have not got time to read the whole thread. I don't see what the problem is here, as a first aider, I can rescusitate someone - it wouldn't make a difference what my job was or what the environment. Nurses have more than the basic first aid training so would be great in this situation.
Katharine x

Yes but we are not talking about giving resuscitation, but making the decision not to give it.

I would just like to add something to the mix, it is somewhat leaning towards the ‘value of life’ discussion but when discussing the point of who is worthy of resuscitation I think it has some value.

My brother, Steven died at age 10. He was severely mentally and physically disabled from an accident at birth (lack of oxygen, not recognised by the attending professionals until it was too late). He was medically just like the little girl ‘holisticheaven’ mentioned. His only communication with the world was through little noises and eye contact.

He was 2 years my junior and he was the most beautiful soul I have ever known. He exuded love through his eyes and he was my greatest saviour and teacher. I learnt through his unconditional love the beauty of life.

His body finally became overwhelmed in December 1982 and he passed away. The paramedics did try to resuscitate him as this was my Mother’s wishes but he was not coming back.

IMO life has value, importance and meaning regardless of how hopeless it may seem.

Resuscitation is a gift of human knowledge. As is the medication that keeps many of us alive. We can perform medical miracles because it is in our evolution to do so. It is also part of our evolution to learn how to use and apply such knowledge. We must listen to those with personal experience and those with knowledge. I think the danger can appear when we stop talking to each other.

I feel resuscitation levels are low because when life is meant to end it will regardless of our attempts and when as in Healistic’s experience with his Mother she did not pass, this was because IMO she was not meant to. Look at the lesson she presents as regards the gift of resuscitation.

Rx

I would just like to add something to the mix, it is somewhat leaning towards the ‘value of life’ discussion but when discussing the point of who is worthy of resuscitation I think it has some value.

My brother, Steven died at age 10. He was severely mentally and physically disabled from an accident at birth (lack of oxygen, not recognised by the attending professionals until it was too late). He was medically just like the little girl ‘holisticheaven’ mentioned. His only communication with the world was through little noises and eye contact.

He was 2 years my junior and he was the most beautiful soul I have ever known. He exuded love through his eyes and he was my greatest saviour and teacher. I learnt through his unconditional love the beauty of life.

His body finally became overwhelmed in December 1982 and he passed away. The paramedics did try to resuscitate him as this was my Mother’s wishes but he was not coming back.

IMO life has value, importance and meaning regardless of how hopeless it may seem.

Resuscitation is a gift of human knowledge. As is the medication that keeps many of us alive. We can perform medical miracles because it is in our evolution to do so. It is also part of our evolution to learn how to use and apply such knowledge. We must listen to those with personal experience and those with knowledge. I think the danger can appear when we stop talking to each other.

I feel resuscitation levels are low because when life is meant to end it will regardless of our attempts and when as in Healistic’s experience with his Mother she did not pass, this was because IMO she was not meant to. Look at the lesson she presents as regards the gift of resuscitation.

Rx

Dear Cirrus.

Thank you so very much for sharing that with us.

I am sorry to hear of your situation with your mother's care Healistic and can totally understand your viewpoint. It is fantastic to hear that your mother went on to make a full recovery.

I also see that you acknowledge that there are both good and bad in relation to both nurses and doctors, and I can wholeheartedly agree with this.

I think for now it is good for this debate to go on and hopefully raise awareness of some of the potential life and death situations that exist.

I do feel that as a nation there are many who prefer not to think about a person's final passage even though death is by its very nature a part of our earthly life. I do feel that the subject should be less taboo and then people may feel more able to discuss their feelings on the subject whilst they are well enough to be taken seriously.

I know that I as a single mother (although luckily not single any more!) took it upon myself to make my will soon after my divorce and as my children began to recognise death with pets etc I gently broached the subject of my will, where it was located and what my funeral requests would be - as they get older still I hope I will still feel able to broach the subject and discuss my wishes in relation to possible treatment.

This kind of openess and acceptance of death is something we need back in our society to lead us back to a proper recognition of life and its true value.

I hope that that makes sense? I've just come of a late shift and not sure I brought all my brain cells with me!!

Much love - wispy~misty x

I am not sure anyone has the right to decide life is no longer viable. Sometimes we assume too much power. And sometimes we give too much power to those with high intellect.

I can understand when Health Care professionals make the decision to end resuscitation because no life is present after all the options have been exhausted.

But to not attempt at all to resuscitate based on a Doctor's or Nurse's judgment of a patient's viability is very concerning to me.

Have we not been raised within our NHS to assume our Health Care System is in place to promote and protect life? When will the 'powers that be' realise that giving yet more people within the NHS the right to not attempt resuscitation will only breed further fear and mistrust?

And who is benefiting from such criteria anyway? Because it ain't me or any member of my immediate family or my extended family or my close friends or those I care for in my community if I am laying on a slab with a sheet over my face because somebody made the wrong decision.
But hey we all make mistakes!!!!!!

Rx

Thank you Healistic for your supporting words. X

An example of decision making. About 20yrs ago with had a very sick baby ventilated and his heart rate kept dropping. His parents totally agreed he was very likely to die.
One day he deteriated and a junior houseman was the one on duty. She didnt want to make the decision to switch off the ventilator without the consultants say so. At that point this babies heart stopped and until we heard from the consultant (on the phone)I had to do resus,. My colleagues and I was saddened that we had to keep his heart going until we heard.
Thankfully he died peacefully about 30 mins later in my arms.

If the decision had been the senior nurse who had nursed this child and knew everything about his condition he would have been spared unnecessary delay, discomfort and pain during his last day.

You must remember a nurse views a patient holistically, whereas a doctor views symptoms.

Medics cannot possibly be on a ward 24 hrs a day, nurses are.

I was lucky where I worked at a childrens hospital, we all worked as a team, consultants, junior doctors and nurses.

You must remember a nurse views a patient holistically, whereas a doctor views symptoms.

Some do some don’t. But that still should not give them the right to decide to terminate a life. Which at the end of the day not giving resuscitation means.

Cirrus.
Have we not been raised within our NHS to assume our Health Care System is in place to promote and protect life? When will the 'powers that be' realise that giving yet more people within the NHS the right to not attempt resuscitation will only breed further fear and mistrust?

The declaration of Geneva agreed at the second general assembly of the World Medical Association in 1948 had within it the line.
“The health and life of my patient will be my first consideration”
In 1968 the word “life” was taken out, one of the reasons given was that “even if a treatment can extend life, the treatment might be so costly or burdensome that it would be better to withhold it or to withdraw it.”
I cannot remember who said it, but in the seventies some one said that the way that we are heading we would have euthanasia as a norm in the NHS by the 21st century, as we all know euthanasia includes the withholding of common treatments such as antibiotics, resuscitation or surgery knowing that it may result in death.

Sorry but IMHO the future doesn’t look to good.