RE: Prostitute Murders
Firstly,
The murder of 5 young women is a tragedy. They deserve sympathy and compassion whether they are prostitutes, nurses or estate agents. The fact that they were drug users can not put any constraint on that compassion. They and their families are entitled to the same respect as any other murder victim.
The response of a number of HP members has been to call for the legalisation of prostitution. Without appearing pedantic prostitution isn't actually illegal but soliciting and kerb crawling is. I guess that it is these activities that people are calling on to be legalised.
The government did contemplate the setting up of red-light 'tolerance zones' a couple of years ago but rejected it fearing, it is claimed, the condemnation of the Red-Top's and the hated Daily Mail. Perhaps the government looked at the issue and decided that the claims on legalisation fall wide of the mark.
Where would legalisation take us as a society, would it minimise people trafficking for example, or would 'tolerance zones' become a magnet for sex tourism and trafficking? Those in favour of legalisation point to the Netherlands where there have been red-light tolerance zones for many years.
In Amsterdam over 80% of prostitutes are immigrants, 70% have no immigration documentation suggesting that they were trafficked. This can hardly be upheld as a shining example of how regulation can minimise the evils of the sex trade.
The danger to women isn't just about the area where prostitution takes place it is because of the very nature of the relationship which is based on a view of women as simply sex objects, it is demeaning and dehumanising and it is no wonder therefore that it breeds violence towards vulnerable women.
To legalise this relationship, to regulate it is to condone it. No government should be going down a road that can only lead to more misery and more violence towards women.
Sweden introduced laws in 1998 that effectively made using the services of a prostitute a crime of violationagainst the person. By rigorously pursuing men who use prostitutes the number of prostitutes in Sweden has declined from 2500 in 1998 to 1500 in 2004 [link= http:/// ] http://www.dogstreetjournal.com/story/3079 [/link] The number of women trafficked into Sweden remains at around 500 a year. This compares to 5,500-7,800 women trafficked into Denmark each year where a more liberal attitude to prostitution prevails.
Whenever as a society we lift the legal and moral sanction on prostitution, drug taking, under age sex, drinking etc it increases. With it increases the potential to generate more misery and wreck lives. Surely as a society we should be trying to prevent vulnerable people falling into a cycle of abuse and misery.
Dunkirk
RE: Prostitute Murders
True prostitution per se is not illegal but a the law forces women to work alone if indoors which hardly makes them safe and out doors fear of prosecution condemns them to woking in a landscape that is lawless cold darkand dangerous in itself.
Why is it illegal for two or three women to work out of a flat where they can provide support for each other, where the authorities (not necessarily the rozzers) can establish some sort of a relationship with them.
I feel that because the notion that the relationship is seen as abusive (by myself also I hasten to add) that the suits that are so keen to legislate against our freedoms are frightened of making the lives of the girls more tolerable for fear of being seen to condone prostitution.
Do we all feel sorry for them because they have been attacked? Is it that we feel we can now voice our compassion and sympathy because of the hightened profile? Is it in the news and nearly Christmas? Or summin else I really don't know.
Hope the suits notice the groundswell of public sympathy and act but I will not be holding my breath.
jono
RE: Prostitute Murders
I introduced a note of flippancy earlier to this thread, but back to the serious stuff - and some good points made by all above.
The question is though: is this a debate about freedom and choice, or about approval and disapproval?
Surely this whole discussion (and I don't just mean on this board) is coloured by the fact that society as a whole "disapproves" of prostitution. One newspaper columnist yesterday (can't remember who, though I think in the Mail - surprisingly!) said that prostitution should be banned because it is "immoral". Well, that's his/her opinion, and we're all entitled to an opinion but isn't morality a personal rather than an absolute issue?
And shouldn't women have the choice? If a woman (or indeed a man) wants to sell sexual services, and someone wants to buy them, why should we say no?
Choice is the key word. Nobody should be forced to do anything against their will, whether it be prostitution or working as an estate agent, so people trafficking should not cloud the issue. That is clearly wrong and should be cracked down on. But saying that prostitution should be banned because some of the people involved have been illegally traded is like saying we should ban cars because some of them are illegally driven, or we should ban football because some managers break the transfer rules and take bungs.
As I said before, people trafficking and underage sex are both wrong. But what right have we got to tell a personshe/he cannot make a living in a way that they choose and and that neither hurts nor concerns anyone else, just because some people disapprove of what they do?
I disapprove of City bankers, but I've never yet suggested they should be banned.
And nobody is yet suggesting that prostitution should be made compulsory. If you don't like it, don't do and don't buy it.
RE: Prostitute Murders
What has bothered me about this case is the whole media circus that has sprung up around it. I feel that the attention from the press has pushed the police to keep giving updates (even when there is little to report), instead of being allowed to get on with their work undisturbed. Who is driving this whole thing? Do we NEED to know every tiny development? I don't think the public is entitled to be party to every single detail of police investigations. If we the public are so hungry for sensation (and dare I say it excitement) then this suggests a serious gap in people's lives that they could fill in a more creative and satisfying way.
RE: Prostitute Murders
I think Belle Du Jour has written an excellent piece about this whole story. A shame The Times didn't publish it - but you can read it here.
I really can't add anything to what Belle says, agree with everything she said.
RE: Prostitute Murders
good piece, fozzyo... thanks for posting the link. poignant and well written.
RE: Prostitute Murders
It seems to me, from what I have read, that avast number of the girls who work the streets (as opposed to the high earning 'Pretty Woman' kind of call girl) do so to finance a drug addiction, either to heroin or crack cocaine.
My own view is that treating drug addiction as a crime rather than an illness is just plain wrong. If these girls - and indeed all addicts - were to be registered and supplied with legal drugs under controlled conditions (ie they have to take them under supervision and thus are unable to sell them on) then there would be no need for this kind of prostitution. Indeed all kinds of crime statistics would immediately fall (muggings, burglaries etc.)
Alcohol is a legal drug. Alcoholics are tolerated (just about), some are even regarded with compassion (by some people). Humankind has been trying to alter its collective consciousness since time immemorial. Where is the crime in being unfortunate enough to become an addict to one or other of the more unpleasant drugs in circulation?
War on drugs? IMHO war is never the answer....
With love and sorrow for the families of the victims (but no sympathy for the victims themselves as they do not need it)
Sunanda xxx
RE: Prostitute Murders
Conspiritualist Why (or how) do you think trying to find a solution to this problem would put us on a road to nowhere? Wouldn't you agree that Jonnyhotpants reply later, very quickly outlines a very good framework of how to answer this problem Jeannie
jonnyhotpants
Govern the supply of Heroin and you get rid of the Dealers. A daily fix then costs 7p the girls won't need to lie down to get enough to pay for it and the pimps grip over them is loosened'
Why is it illegal for two or three women to work out of a flat where they can provide support for each other, where the authorities (not necessarily the rozzers) can establish some sort of a relationship with them.
Yes Conspirtitualist, I do believe we are on the road to nowhere, not just in this matter but everything else in this country. We are on the cusp of rapidly witnessing a complete and utter breakdown of society as we know it, law, moral behaviour, murder, and common decency. We will become a nation like the film Mad Max, survival of the fittest and damn you! Why because everything is mad, no discipline, no structure, no family life, nothing! Excuses for this, excuses for that, ah the poor prostitutes, ah the poor murderers, ah the poor hoodies, ah the poor criminal
Human rights gone berserk and yet the average person on the street is suffering more and more.
Also Jonnyhotpants,
Yes we could legalise the Heroin situation, but that isn't going to stop the dealers, they will still be there pushing some new up and coming drug. Do you honestly think the prostitutes would then stop laying down for their money, get real, they will always make the excuse they need the money for something or other - for the vast majority it is a normal accepted part of daily life.
This country istoo soft for our own good, too many do gooders, too many people burying their head in the sand, therefore,we are doomedto sit back and just watch this world destruct.
[sm=smillie_sylvester.gif]
RE: Prostitute Murders
It seems a bit sad, Jeannie, to suggest that the world is a worse place for people doing good! It seemsto me that we need more good doing, rather than less.
I want to live in a better world - and we're not going to achieve that by decrying the good, and therefore, presumably, encouraging the bad,
RE: Prostitute Murders
AAAAAAArrrrgggghhhh you miss the point! I am so into justice and a good lifefor everyone, but by continually making excuses for the wrong-doers of this world we are not helping anyone, so many peopleappear more concerned and worriedabout the criminals, (oh the poor murderer whose lethal injection did not work first time) Bless his little cotton socks!!!!
Why don'tpeople concentrate more on thinking about the increasing amount of devastated families and victimsHence my previous message, there is no answer to anything anymore, and the problems of this country or spiralling out of control...fast
RE: Prostitute Murders
No, jeannie, I got your point... you said there were "too many do gooders". Not enough people doing good, if you ask me.
RE: Prostitute Murders
I disapprove of City bankers, but I've never yet suggested they should be banned.
Supersub....Why on earth would you disapprove of City Bankers????????
RE: Prostitute Murders
City bankers? Doesn't everyone disapprove of them? Probably mainly because of the way they pay themselves massive bonuses... with OUR money. Our savings, our pension funds. If they've got so much cash sloshing about that they can afford to dish out seven-figure bonuses, there has got to be something wrong there.
Maybe it's a morality thing. Incidentally, further to my posting above, why is it that the people who are so critical of prostitution on morality grounds don't also disapprove of the military for the same reasons? Isn't killing peoplerather more immoral than having sex with them? Not to mention, less fun for those on the receiving end.
RE: Prostitute Murders
Supersub... I meant do-gooders of the wrong sort, i.e. thinking they are doing good by excusing wrong doers!!
RE: Prostitute Murders
Yes, I know, Jeannie, I was only winding you up - sorry! Though I've always thought it seems odd to talk about good-doing as a bad thing. And I can't agree with you about making excuses for wrongdoing. But that's another argument.