The key to this subject is that I've put a question mark at the end of the thread title.
This is a potentially huge subject - or just a silly conspiracy theory. Read for yourself and make up your own mind. To sum up, many people, including a majority of experts on Osama Bin Laden and al Qaeda it seems, don't believe he's alive, but that he died way back in December 2001. The point is that he had kidney disease but no access to a dialysis machine where he is / was. And it seems clearly not to be him in videos released since that time. Moreover - in the recordings which are him in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, he said he had nothing to do with it! How many times have we ever heard that? It was news to me!
So, the argument goes, someone - and this would have to include secret services, some politicians, and whoever is making the fake video and audio recordings - is "keeping him alive", pretending he's alive, for the sake of justifying our continued intervention in the Middle East.
What's my opinion? I dunno! I'm open-minded. But I do think it's a possibility worthy of taking a look at. The article below is a few months old. But the subject has become so "hot" that a few months ago there was a documentary on one of the terrestrial TV channels in the UK, taking exactly this subject and refuting it. The refuting was quite persuasive too, though I don't recall all the explanations given.
Anyway, see what others among you think:
V
Hi Venetian my personal view is that it is not really too far fetched. Unfortunately I often wonder about the thics of our world leaders/politicians and would certainly not put this past them. As the article says the tapes usually happen around a time of public questioning and lack of support. Think a direct comparison could be made with the Falklands war which again IMO was Mrs Thatchers way of trying to re unite a country that she had been systematically pulling apart.
As I said only my opinions and I look forward to others.
PS. not seen you for a while nice to see u back.
Love and Light
Linda
Whether or not I agree with Venetian or the story he linked to does not matter. What I will say is that the United States of America (my country) was founded on fear and continues to thrive on fear. It is how the Federal Government maintains control. The U.S. cannot survive unless there is a bogeyman to combat. Look at the history of the U.S. and you will see that there never has been a time when the U.S. didn't have some major adversary, whether real or invented, to keep the population afraid. The U.S. itself is very adversarial, which IMHO makes the rest of the world justifiably nervous. But to even suggest that the U.S. might cause some of the problems in the world is to be labeled 'anti-American'.
This theory has been going around for years. What I didn't know was that he'd released 4 statements in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 denying any involvement! My best friend has been saying for years that he had nothing to do with it...
I think the difference between this and a lot of the other 9/11 related conspiracies, is that this one seems perfectly feasable and relatively easy to pull off. He has become a bit of a comic-book villain, lurking somewhere in the shadows like the bogeyman... but really, where is he? What has he actually 'done' since 9/11 happened?
What I have always believed is that the so-called 'War on Terror' was either futile or a justifaction for going to war for other reasons, but would somewhere along the line involve money and power.
I do think that the Bush/Blair era will go down as one of the darkest in history. And I also think there seems to be a continuous attack by newspapers on Islam. As much as I see faults in the main conventional religions, there are Muslim people in my life who I love and who in no way resemble what is being reported in the papers.
Sorry for straying slightly off topic, but until we can begin to understand why people commit acts of terror, we will not discover a way of preventing them. I don't see how dropping bombs in certain areas will ever solve terrorism. After all, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
Good topic and great to see you back, Venetian!
It has been my opinion for many years that Bin Laden is no longer alive, but have kept it more or less to myself.
I'm sure the war on terror was an excuse to acces oil, and I feel very sorry indeed for the general population who have suffered so in the process - no matter how bad things were before the invasion I see little that has improved since then. I agree with much of what Tigerlily says.
This theory has been going around for years.
I didn't know, until this article which is actually a summary of a book. I wish I recalled more about the TV documentary a few months ago but frankly I don't. I think it first presented this viewpoint, and experts were laughing "Alive?! No! We haven't believed that for years!" But then the explainers came in and were quite convincing too, seeming to cover all points raised. But was that also just a cover-up? I should have noted who made the docu.
What I didn't know was that he'd released 4 statements in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 denying any involvement!
That is quite something, isn't it! Again, how often do we hear about that?! I never had.
What I have always believed is that the so-called 'War on Terror' was either futile or a justifaction for going to war for other reasons, but would somewhere along the line involve money and power.
I also began another Current Affairs thread last night, with 9/11 in the title. As the link says, not long before 9/11 there was actually a statement made that in order to get into the Middle East, and do so with public support, what was needed was "another Pearl Harbour". That's fact, that it was said. And then 9/11 occurred ...
[It's doubly significant in that the White House knew of the imminent attack on Pearl Harbour but didn't warn the military there on the day: politicians wanted that attack too, to justify entering WW II against Japan, again with necessary public support.]
So the two threads are in fact linked. The other is about an organisation in the USA of 1,000 architects, engineers, and fire fighters who disbelieve the official story of 9/11 because according to their expertise the towers just couldn't have come down by plane-hits (and a third tower came down without being hit at all!).
I'm straying into the other thread on the 9/11 attack. But if that was a conspiracy, the buildings brought down actually by pre-planted explosives (and the planes some form of cover), then what of these real explosions that brought down three towers of the World Trade Center? I didn't know, from the link I give in that thread:
[COLOR="Blue"]there are more than one hundred first responders who heard and experienced explosions and that there is radio, audio and video evidence of explosions.
V
Fidel Castro claims Osama bin Laden is a US spy
Well, this is what Castro thinks:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/aug/27/fidel-castro-osama-bin-laden-us-spy
The Sky report mentions the claim that bin Laden's threats post 2001 are being done by a 'bad actor':
Oh, it's "Him" is it?
I don't doubt the latest reports that about a dozen European Muslim extremists, most or all born in Pakistan actually, had been in just the preliminary stages of "commando-style" attacks within the UK, Germany, and France. I don't doubt the effectiveness of such attacks, and do not find that aspect funny, since the plans have been likened to the attacks upon Mumbai, which were upon some specific places I know and have been in myself.
However, it all starts to get a bit bizarre. The Western media have from somewhere (and where precisely did it begin?) been given the prod to say the idea and plan probably originated with Osama bin Laden. Oh, really? To make such a claim, where is the evidence? There is ZERO evidence. It's just verbal spouting.
Most UK papers cite the claim. For example, The Telegraph:
Just to take that paper as a typical example:
Western intelligence agencies believe that a plot of the size proposed, originating in Pakistan, would have to have the go ahead from the al-Qaeda chief personally.
Agents have made the assumption that bin Laden used couriers to send a message to al-Qaeda followers telling them he would like to see a Mumbai-style attack on the three strategic targets.
A US official told the Daily Telegraph: "Senior al-Qaeda terrorists have been involved in many recent attack planning efforts. It wouldn't be surprising in the least if bin Laden were involved in some of that."
If true, it would mean the al-Qaeda chief was once again taking an operational role despite the enormous risks to his life.
The reports emerged as an 11 minute audio tape from Bin Laden emerged on the internet yesterday called "Reflections on the Method of Relief Work"
The ambush plots were disrupted by drone attacks in Pakistan in recent days, according to security sources, killing a number of Britons.
A second US counter-terrorism source said the threat was "credible, but not specific."
Western intelligence agencies have failed to get a fix on bin Laden since he walked into Pakistan as the US attacked his hideout in the mountains of Tora Bora, Afghanistan, in December 2001.
Leon Panetta, the head of the CIA, said in June that it was "the early 2000s" when they had "the last precise information about where he might be located."
The topic or subject is of course serious. But it is hard not to laugh regarding the bin Laden citation. The media have clearly been pressed to add his name to the story.
And he's doing this "at enormous risk to his life" is he? Hmm, 🙂 how "enormous" is that risk, when there's ne'er a mention of him over the last nine years? If alive, he's clearly pretty darned safe. But the more important aspect is that of course, in keeping with the thread topic here, there's no evidence that he's alive, there are numerous reports that he was a dying man in 2001 and even that he did die naturally, videos of "bin Laden" are clearly not him in at least some instances since 2001, and there is such an invested interest for the West in "keeping bin Laden alive" as a bug-a-boo after the end of the Cold War.
It can't be proven, and TBH we cannot know for sure of course, but I think the bin Laden mention - spread deliberately around our media - is just an attempt to control us through fear.
So how many enemies are we facing as individuals? Terrorists, yes. But people within our own intelligence community too? Who decided with ZERO evidence to put a bin Laden tag onto this story and then spread that around?
V
More from "bin Laden". But should we really believe it? Should we at least be aware that we might be being manipulated?
IMHO it doesn't ring true.
V
So how many enemies are we facing as individuals? Terrorists, yes. But people within our own intelligence community too? Who decided with ZERO evidence to put a bin Laden tag onto this story and then spread that around?
V
[sigh] I would point out that you or any other member of the general public having ZERO evidence does not necessarily mean there actually is ZERO evidence... [/sigh]
Sheep go "barrrgh" 🙂
These questions are legitimate. For goodness' sake, if nobody aired such questions, what kind of a controlled world would be living in? Such questions are important to be asked.
I should know, as I have first-hand experience of real conspiracies. I'll never forget when I simply chatted about one - and she tried to lose me my job, as she was connected to it!
V
never heard the reports that he maybe dead already but i see it's possible. i've always believed that osama is more useful to the yanks alive. also didn't know that the latest alerts are being stated as originating from him. could be true but then i only know what the media tell me and there interest is justifying and perpetuating war?! it does seem aparent that headlines are needed to keep the fear up and stop the public losing interest in and backing for war(s).
the age old adage of divide and conquer comin at yer live n direct...
and of course there is an equal and opposing propaganda in the countries that "we" are at war with. it is the individual that choses to accept hate, be it on whatever side of the fence, without that the rulers are helpless. i do feel that ultimately war is a collective of expression of the conflict in all our individual lives.
Hi chakraman,
You would need to look back over the thread to see my case that bin Laden has actually been dead for many years. I suppose this very thread begins with the important links?
Point is, do I KNOW that bin Laden is dead? Of course I do not "know" and there is no 100% proof. But it seems highly likely. Unlike other terrorist leaders he has literally been disappeared off the face of the earth for nine years. What are the chances of that? Admittedly it is disputed, but he is also said to have been terminally ill with a kidney illness in 2001 - an illness he would not have recovered from, if true.
And members of al-Qaeda (whatever that is, as it's a loose term) attest to actually being there for his funeral. Videos of him after 2001 are also clearly not him. (That's why the videos have stopped IMHO: they just are not credible.) They are pathetic TBH as they are so clearly not him. You have to ask: who would be behind someone acting as him? Who would profit from someone doing a bad-act role to perpetuate the myth of bin Laden?
[Actually, for years just IMHO it was the Western elite who would profit from this. But real Muslim extremists this year have clearly shown that they need the bin Laden myth to continue also: it gives them credibility. Ironically, they now go along with it.]
So of course it cannot be stated for certain that he is dead. I am simply raising the question. BUT many Western intelligence officers now state they've known for years that he is not alive.
So the point is of course: whome would it profit to pretend that he is still alive? Those in the West who seek to control us by fear, of course. I am simply raising the possibility - though it seems very highly likely to me.
V
hiya V,
yeah read the whole thread but admittedly not the links but then i agree with the possibilty that he is dead. i do feel that it's a feasible question. as you know there's more proifit for the west in him being alive. i don't think they ever really looked for him. c.man...
just had a quick flick. good that such an idea is even being proposed. hopefully people may question whether or not they are being manipulated.
Officially dead!
After hearing today's big news story, I thought I'd check back here to find out what peoples' thoughts were... Nothing yet, but I look forward to reading a heated debate!
Good thing? Bad thing?
It's a mighty day for conspiracy theories. Talk about adding fuel to the fire... Body dumped in the sea? What were they thinking??? Assuming that the reports are true...
Good old infowars is already on the case:
http://www.infowars.com/red-alert-government-had-osama-bin-laden-frozen-for-years/
As for me, I was believing the news reports... until I heard about the body being chucked in the sea... now I just don't know what to think... Unless photos will be released.
I feel this leaves us in a more volatile situation and with more questions than answers. I would've preferred a proper trial. But perhaps if someone I loved had died on 9/11, I'd be feeling differently.
Interesting day.
Edited to add, apologies if my post seems flippant. I do appeciate the seriousness of it, but at the same time have a cynical and questioning mind.