Hello, it might be a slightly long post, I appologise in advance!
I have stomach acidity (but no ulcer, I had a gastroscopy) and I have to take proton-pump inhibitors every day. So I stopped by an acupuncture place when I was in town and asked if they could give me some medicine. The girl gave me a consultation and advised I should get acupuncture and massage for a while. She said they had this special deal etc for 12 sessions, and since I was rather desperate I said yes.
The first session, she did the acupuncture and then called in the Dr, a Chinese man who hardly speaks any English, to do the massage. The massage was so energetic that it was painful!
The next time (and the times after that), the man not only did the massage (just as painful every time - he goes really deep and really fast in my neck, tummy etc) but also the acupuncture. I'm used to acupuncture making me relaxed but with him, I just keep feeling the needles the whole time and if I move slightly, it's like it's firing a nerve, very painful. I got bruises in my thigh last time.
But I kept going because, well, I had payed, and I was seeing a little improvement. They also keep trying to sell me more and more medicines, I am already on 3 different ones (£10 each for about 5 days...) and they wanted to give me two more! I refused as I can't afford that AND the acupuncture.
The last session I had with them was the worst though because the non-Englis speaking Dr put a cushion under my ankles before putting the needles in and then left me, but after five minutes the pain in my knees (that didn't have a cushion underneath) was horrible so I had to call him, and I asked to remove the cushion because my knees were hurting but he didn't understand and just kept looking at the needles in my legs, until he understodd the word knee and put the cushion under my knees, at which point I tried to explain that I didn't want any cushion at all (I could really feel the needles with the cushion under my knees) - it was hard but I eventually got there.
However, I just don't want to go for my last 4 sessions because it's making me more and more nervous as it is so painful and not relaxing at all, and I am quite fed up of them trying to sell me all their medicines (and not understanding when I am in pain). I don't know what to do. I wonder if he's properly qualified. I have had a massage from chinese acupuncturists before and it was much better. This guy really hurts me. Sometimes he just seems to be rocking my neck from one side to the other for 5 minutes, or stroking really really hard on the top of my head. But I can't really say anything since he doesn't speak English. I pull faces but it doesn't seem to bother him! 
I can't believe how much money I have spent on this already...
Claire.
Oh dear! You too??!! My daughter was 'done' by a set up like this in 2007, when she was away at Uni. She paid for a series of 10 treatments, (student rate of £170) but didn't go back after the second session as, like you, she was in too much pain. She has had acupuncture before, with a local TCM doctor (I see him too, and have known him for 20 years). 3 local 'high street' acpuncture shops ceased trading over a single weekend in April. No one knows where they went, and judging by the mail building up behnd the doors, there were no forwarding addresses.
If you are in pain, don't go back. You could ask for a refund to cover the appointments you have no intention of attending, but I don't think you will get one.
No I don't think so either... 
I feel slightly ashamed of having payed up-front for so many treatments, but I had had a good experience in the past... Oh well! You live and learn... I don't think I will go back, and I am thinking of writing a letter to get the money for the last few sessions but, as you said, I doubt it will work...
I have heard that acupuncture needling Chinese style is more painful than needling by Western practitioners - I have no idea about the massage is it Tui Na? I've had tui na but that hasn't been painful either.
No one wants to feel pain during an acupuncture/massage treatment though some massage techniques can be quite painful, it is usually how you feel afterwards and if you are really tensing up during the treatment then it is more than likely not being beneficial.
Diet is extremely important if you are having gastro-intestinal problems - I went for acupuncture for this purpose some years back and I was given a sheet of which foods to include in my diet, rather then get the hard sell for herbs which I wasn't prepared to pay for at the time.
Put it in writing that you are not satisfied with the treatment and request the money back, wait and see what happens.
Binah
x
Yes, I would have expected a little more help with my diet too. After all, I am paying £40 per session...
I am not sure about the type of massage, he stays on the same spot for a while and kinda rubs really deep and really fast. It makes my whole body rock quite badly! When he does my neck, I can hear it clicking quite a lot.
And no, I don't get any relaxed feeling at the end... Unlike with my previous experiences (with also a chinese doctor)!
I believe that my problem is 1) that I am too stressed, so I am working on that and 2) that I got addicted to the proton pump inhibitors and I am not trying to stop, but slowly otherwise you can get a rebound effect according to my GP.
Yes, I would have expected a little more help with my diet too. After all, I am paying £40 per session...
Thats a lot of dosh, I really hope you get a refund - Good luck.
Binah
x
Hi,
I am really sorry that you had to endure some like that. As an acupuncturist it makes me mad hearing stuff like that because they are really doing a disservice to the profession...that is one of the reason why the British Acupuncture council is fighting to have acupuncture regulated... because you shouldn't have to go through that. Unfortunately it is often the case with high street shops...I wouldn't blame the doctor himself...they are often badly paid and with minimum training...there is a bigger problem behind it.
If this hasn't put you off acupuncture for ever, which I hope, I suggest that you find a practitioner from the British acupuncture council () or ask for recommendations from friends...
Good luck and I hope you feel better soon
x
It hasn't put me off, but I will definitely be very careful next time...
x
I had a series of acupuncture sessions in the past. The first half were carried out by a very sensitive doctor, who tapped the needles in lightly, and I felt no pain while he did this, nor when they were in. The second set of sessions were carried out by a non-speaking Chinese doctor who didnt tap the needles in, but pushed them in in one go. OUCH! And very often, they would be too close to the nerve (especially on my legs). It did put me off.
I'm starting treatments again very soon, with a British acupuncturist who is very experienced, it was mainly chinese herbal medicine I went to him for, but he offered acupuncture too, it is included in the cost of our sessions anyway, and he says he will be gentle. I am actually looking forward to the session on Friday
Oh good, let us know how it goes!
Sounds very much like my own experience (gentle tapping vs. painful pushing)... :S
WOW! sounds like an ordeal there!
Unfortunately this is the chinese way, and how traditional acupuncture can be at times. There is a fine line between a strong treatment and discomfort, but as a tui na practitioner and traditional chinese acupunturist i am always working at the far scale of a patients tolerence.
This gets results!
Western acupuncture can be very superficial at times, even non effective if you are not getting deqi ( the feeling of pulling, tugging, pressing or even shooting like a nerve) when the qi is activated by the needles.
The treatment, in most cases will work, but not as quickly as stronger acupuncture.
I do agree that if the patient becomes uncomfortable then the treatment is at times worthless, and this is the trouble with the language barrier at these ' high street' shops, which as suggested are closing down all over the country.
There are many different style of acupuncture available and each very effective.
I must mention that although the 'British Acupuncture Council' have many practitioners on their register they are by no means a state regulated or government backed body, mainly consisting of western style trained acupuncturist's that have attended western universities,
This does not give them an additional guarantee over other proffesional practitioners who are just as efficient.
I would suggest you get a recommend from a friend, this is worth more than a few letters after a name.
Good Luck
INDO
These are the credentials of the guy I have just started seeing: he completed acupuncture studies at the Beijing International Acupuncture Training Centre, and then graduated in acupuncture from the London Academy of Oriental Medicine. This was all almost 15 ys ago.
I'm pretty confident in his abilities and technique. This morning he said he is off to Burma for 2 weeks shortly after Christmas, to teach acupuncture!
The session this morning was lovely, I felt the needles going in but there was no pain - I felt the one on my forehead more, but again I can't say that it was painful. I did get into a suitably relaxed state and felt my mind start to drift. Must admit if it takes longer for this 'non-painful' acupuncture to work, I honestly don't mind. It's an hour of relaxation and time-out that I need in my busy life - and therapeutic too.
Interesting stuff!
I would be good to open this up in a seperate thread to discover other practitioner thoughts and training.
here if you would like to join in.
INDO
Very interesting Indo! I didn't know there was such a difference. Akthough, as mikeoc said, I think I would prefer something that takes longer to work and that's more comfortable because I don't think the stress it's causing is very good for me! :S
To be fair, though, my stomach is much much better. It could be for a million different reasons, but it could be the acupuncture. Or the chinese herbal medicines? I am still taking them!
Now I'm going to join in the new discussion!
glad you are getting some results claire!
Herbs are a great resource when dealing with internal disharmony and agreat combination with needles.
Why not search for a five element practitioner, 1 needle in and out...thats it! very extensive diagnosis but i have heard of good results.
INDO
Thanks Indo! I have spent soooo much money so far that I iwl first wait and see if I stay better!
I still need to finish my herbal treatment anyway, but it's promising!
I have had tui na from both a British person (Scotland) and a Chinese person (Russell square, London).
The Chinese person (rythmic, measured, good pressure i.e just enough to be good sore) was far superior to the British (heavy, laboured, incredibly painful, couldn't breath). So'z imo it is the person doing it and maybe the training received.
Both did try the hard sell (both had chinese patented herbs) but as someone who studies Western Herbalism I declined both. Not because I didn't trust the herbs but due to the fact that neither could explain what they were all about (Chinese guy couldn't speak English and Scottish one just didn't appear to know).
I have only had acupuncture from two Scottish females and both achieved deqi. Both were Bac qualified. I cannot comment on any other acupuncture as haven't had it with non-bac trained.
Like I said...it is down to the competence of the practitioner, as in all practices.;)
Patchouli
there is always a thin line between providing a suitable treatment for the condition , or a suitable treatment for the patient.
Striking a balance is what seperates the good from the bad
As a Tui Na practitioner i have visited with many other practitioners and it is always different.
My patients descibe it as 'good' pain, they feel the work is being applied at a deep level but have a sense that it is doing good and ulimately relaxing at the same time.
Back to subject:p....... i mentioned this thread to my bodyworker/teacher whilst during a treatment and we both agreed that a sensation must be felt to have a satisfactory result. The sensation will differ between individuals and the condition being treated.
I have experienced sensations ranging from, slight buzzing through to a feeling like having a red hot poker stuck in my skin (this was not good)or bee sting.
I also feel that many 'western' taught practitioners lack confidence to apply needles deeply, or they have been taught a very safe and superficial application. The increase in 'medically' trained practioners attending a weekend course in acupuncture is quite simply madness:eek:
In the end it will be the results that will keep patients returning!
Its sometimes worrying that soon there will be an influx of people, especially GP's offering inferior treatment which eventually will effect the business of true practitoners out there, aswell as the future students.
INDO
I have my second session of acupuncture tomorrow, so will try and pay attention to any sensations that I feel. I can't remember really if I felt any during my last series of acupunture sessions, it was too long ago - although I do remember feeling quite dizzy after some sessions, the only physical sensation I remember is the pain from needles being pushed in hard and/or too close to nerves on my legs, as I said earlier. At my session two weeks ago, I felt only the needle in my forehead being inserted, and could also feel it during the session, but it wasnt a painful sensation - not sure how to describe it, more a physical awareness of it. Anyway, I will pay proper attention tomorrow, and I'll report back
Hi,
I am really sorry that you had to endure some like that. As an acupuncturist it makes me mad hearing stuff like that because they are really doing a disservice to the profession...that is one of the reason why the British Acupuncture council is fighting to have acupuncture regulated... because you shouldn't have to go through that. Unfortunately it is often the case with high street shops...I wouldn't blame the doctor himself...they are often badly paid and with minimum training...there is a bigger problem behind it.
If this hasn't put you off acupuncture for ever, which I hope, I suggest that you find a practitioner from the British acupuncture council () or ask for recommendations from friends...
Good luck and I hope you feel better soon
x
When I had acupuncture a couple of years ago, I made sure I chose someone from the BAC and she was excellent. Very professional, very thorough and sorted me in a few treatments.
Before I chose her, everything I read anywhere (magazines, books, websites) recommended going via the British Acupuncture Council. I see that "Indo" says that this is no guarantee that they are any more professional than any other acupuncturist but I wouldn't feel happy letting just anyone stick needles in me.
My acupuncturist is on leave at the moment so I've been looking around for someone else and I've come across someone locally who has a Diploma in Chinese Health Care Medicine and Acupuncture from Acumedic Foundation and University of Bejing. But she's not on the BAC register. I find all this very confusing TBH.:confused:
Hi Twohoots,
I originally decided against getting involved in the pro or against BAcC thing... but changed my mind when I read your post.
Because acupuncture is not regulated in the UK, everyone can practice it. So associations like the BAcC (but other exist) are trying to set some self-regulating procedures to ensure high standards. Of course there are a lot of politics involved and I share some of Indo's concerns. For example I do have the feeling that the BAcC at times is after my money with its high fees. But I totally disagree with Indo when he says that most of its member are Western style acupuncturists that only did a weekend course or stuff like that. I spent my last 3 years working very hard and part of my training involved spending my last year treating patients under super vision which I don't think it is something that can be said about a few weekends long courses. Not only that but I had to do a lot of work on myself and the way I approach and work with patients. That is quite big in the BAcC requirements.
That doesn't mean that it guarantees I am a good practitioner... at the end of the day being a good practitioner involves much more... but still.
You probably read mostly about the BAcC because they are quite good at their marketing...
I am quite against the monopoly of just one association but... when we get threats from the biomedical world on a regular basis I think it is important to be somehow united under a name... despite all its shortcomings.
So... go with your gut feelings I suppose...
...oh...plus it guarantees you that your practitioner is insured....
Hi Twohoots,
I originally decided against getting involved in the pro or against BAcC thing... but changed my mind when I read your post.
Because acupuncture is not regulated in the UK, everyone can practice it. So associations like the BAcC (but other exist) are trying to set some self-regulating procedures to ensure high standards. Of course there are a lot of politics involved and I share some of Indo's concerns
.
The main problem is BAC are THE ONLY association aiming for 'state' regulation, NOT self or 'Voluntary' regulation.
For example I do have the feeling that the BAcC at times is after my money with its high fees
.
If BAC becomes the regulatory body they will be charging around £2000 per year to register, plus you MUST attend only there regulated courses to pass, £££££££££££'s
does anyone actually realise that the people making this decision are actually chiropractors, physio's, etc which will serve to protect there jobs by limiting the amount of people that have access to this training.
The world is not that stupid! the negative effects of bad practitioners is extremely minimal, compared to western medicine its miniscul. If you visit someone who you do not like you find another that is more suitable.
As with all things, ask for proof of insurance, training or a recommendation. This is the only way to ensure safety
But I totally disagree with Indo when he says that most of its member are Western style acupuncturists that only did a weekend course or stuff like that.
I think you misunderstood me, i meant that as a GP they are required to attend a 2-3 day course in point location in order to practice what is known as 'Medical Acupuncture'. As for the other courses they are more taught to western 'needling ' techniques as apposed to stronger chinese styles, i beleive the TCM to be quite extensive, as it should be.
You probably read mostly about the BAcC because they are quite good at their marketing...
I am quite against the monopoly of just one association but... when we get threats from the biomedical world on a regular basis I think it is important to be somehow united under a name... despite all its shortcomings.
I think this hits the nail on the head!
Although if i had set up a body called
THE BRITISH ASSOCIATION OF CHINESE ACUPUNCTURE
Then there would be confusion eh?
is it worth starting a new thread to discuss what people think about the regulations?
indo
From my session last week, I cant really report any real physical sensations from the needles while they were inserted. I could physically feel the needle in my forehead throughout the session, but I dont think that is quite the same. I did, however, feel such a sense of deep calm and inner stillness, all the time the needles were inserted. Bearing in mind I am a reiki practitioner and trainee reflexologist, I am au fait with meditation techniques and this was something else. Was that a form of deqi?
Hi everyone!
- Just had a browse through everyone's comments and it seems as though there are a lot of bad experiences surrounding acupuncture! I highly reccommend seeing a Classical Five Element Acupuncturist, this type of acupuncture treats the source of the problem as opposed to the symptom (unlike TCM). It takes practitioners 3 years to become fully qualified and years to have a mature understanding of the body. Have a look at a chap called JR Worsley if you're interested - there's also a clinic on New Bond Street in London that practices Five-Element.
I hope that has contributed something to the discussion - I look forward to your responses!
Charles