The Rebel
People are afraid, very much afraid of those who know themselves. They have a certain power, a certain aura and a certain magnetism, a charisma that can take out alive, young people from the traditional imprisonment....
The enlightened man cannot be enslaved - that is the difficulty - and he cannot be imprisoned.... Every genius who has known something of the inner is bound to be a little difficult to be absorbed; he is going to be an upsetting force. The masses don't want to be disturbed, even though they may be in misery; they are in misery, but they are accustomed to the misery. And anybody who is not miserable looks like a stranger.
The enlightened man is the greatest stranger in the world; he does not seem to belong to anybody. No organization confines him, no community, no society, no nation.
Osho The Zen Manifesto
This piece reminds me of my father known as the rebel and peaceful warrior, his country residence was called 'Rebels Rest'.
Love beyond meausre
Kim xx
RE: The Rebel
In the thread, "False Prophets", Roger, who seemed to really know his stuff, delivered a pretty devastating critique of "Osho" aka Rajneesh.
V
RE: The Rebel
well venetian in my experience you and Roger deliver a pretty devastating critique of anyone that you do not agree with. As my son says it is not the messenger that counts but the message being delivered and as Leo says 'do not shoot the messenger'.
and this feels more like the truth to me about the good and not so good aspects of osho's life.
Love beyond measure
kim xx
RE: The Rebel
and for those that are interested here is my critique of Osho's legacy to human kind.
'I have it on good authority he didn't quite evolve to the supreme level and being of a Christal in this last lifetime! It is not what one says that matters it is the actions that accompany the thoughts, words and deeds that really count. He lacked some compassion and to recognise that the box cannot be shifted until it is ready to be shifted and that one cannot force our foot into a shoe that is too small. Temptation of notoriety in the US brought the downfall.
And by their good works we shall know them, but Osho's tree birthed some amazing apples and their seed is of him and their love is from his seed and GOD says this is very good. Each apple now births a new tree, with many branches and many leaves so many more apples may bear fruit. Then more apples fall from the tree to further build the spectrum of light across the planet.'
For those that are interested there is great wisdom in the words of Osho but be warned they do challenge one's comfort zones.
He has my utmost respect as a man that really did try to do his best with the purest of intent but yet the glamour got the better of him. Even Jesus suffered from human weakness as we all do at times. So let us honour the great ones and what they acheived during their lives. Dedicating their lives to helping others raise human consciousness on this planet.
GOD bless him
Kim xx
RE: The Rebel
Apologies. I didn't mean to have a dialogue on this, and have no intention of that, but for the sake of accuracy I must post again in order to correct myself. I thought Roger's post on "Osho" (who fled the USA when he was calling himself Rajneesh) was in the thread "False Gurus". An understandable mistake perhaps. 😀 To correct my error, Roger's informed deconstruction of the Osho myth is on page 1 of the thread, "Sai Baba Documentary".
I still never did understand why 89 Rolls Royces were not enough for Osho and he had to take it up to 90. 😉 Maybe he got progressively illumined with each new Rolls, who knows?
So Roger's post, to me, seals the subject. But just one quote from it: "What you tell them is true, but what I tell them (the useful lies) is good for them." Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh 1975
V
RE: The Rebel
Dear venetian
I recommend that you and others discover the truth for yourself and with love in your hearts not be blinkered by materialism, negative perceptions and Osho's human weakness. If you take the time to read the full story you will understand why he fled the USA, his life was being threatened by the powers that be and the US government were getting nasty. And so his followers who loved him beyond measure rebelled (and being the pacifist that I am this cannot be justified).
I would also be interested in you providing evidence of your accusations that Osho lied and perhaps you would like to start another thread for this as this thread's intent was to share his wisdom and not deconstruct the messenger.
Osho was given many gifts and when you receive a gift do you give it away to someone else?
Interesting to ponder upon especially as I was considering this morning of returning a gift to someone due to me not having a use for it. And a couple of weeks ago I was most upset to discover that homes gifted through will to Dr Barnado's for the use of children are being sold off because children do not go into homes in the same numbers anymore. My view is that if the charity has no use of the property then the donation should be either returned to the giver's family or given to others that will use it for the giver's original intent to help children.
Dear All
If someone who loves you deeply gives you a gift and you have no use for it what do you do? Do you return it to the giver or give it to someone else or charity?
How can one return it to the giver without them being offended?
I would be interested on what you would do in these circumstances.
Why do people feel the need to deconstruct anyone at all? Why can they not just let people BE and allow the wisdom of great teachers words to stand in its clarity.
Love beyond measure
kim xx
RE: The Rebel
Hi Kim
I don't think I would ever return a gift to the giver. But I would certainly pass it on or give it to a charity shop if I really had no use for it.
Love
Sunanda xxxx
RE: The Rebel
Dear Sunanda
Thank you for your response and with Osho in mind how do you think the giver would respond to find out that their gifts were not retained by their beloved, would they not feel undervalued? Because in Osho's case they would know if he no longer retained their gifts!
I guess it would depend on their level of evolvement and how accepting they are. Giving a gift unconditionally with no attachment to where it ends up is then different to giving a gift with specific intent e.g the case of Dr Barnado's.
In my own life my personal choice would be to have the gift returned to me so that I may replace it with something more suitable.
Love beyond measure
kim xx
RE: The Rebel
I don't see that the giver would necessarily find out about what had happened to the gift. If he/she did find out, then that would be meant to happen. It is indeed true that gifts should be given with no thought as to what will happen to them. It is hard, though, not to be attached to the fruit of one's actions. Practise, practise, practise. (That's what I tell myself.)
Love
Sunanda xxx
PS On the subject of Osho, I know many people who were his devotees. They are, on the whole, good friends and very nice people, but some of them appear to have a few problems....not that I wish to go into details.
PPS It just occurred to me to wonder why this is on the Buddhism forum?
RE: The Rebel
Dear Sunanda
Yes it matters not how great a teacher, it is up to the individual to integrate the knowledge through experience then it truly does become wisdom. After all humankind are still learning to live the truth of Jesus 2,000 years later.
I know many advanced spiritual people from many different backgrouds that have not integrated the knowledge that they have gained over many years hence why they struggle and stumble upon the path. So as you say practise, practise, practise where I say integrate, integrate, integrate.
I have also met devotees of Osho who have become wonderful examples Frank Arjava Petter and his wife Chetna of Reiki fame being just two of them. I first met some of Osho's devotees in Australia some years back but it was reading Franks books that brought Osho back into my sight and then one of my guides led me to one of Osho's books.
Why this forum well the piece shared was from the Zen Manifesto and this forum is the most closely connected with Zen.
Love beyond measure
Kim xx
PS the giver would know what happened to the gift if they were a regular visitor to Osho's ashram.
RE: The Rebel
Dear Sunanda,
On gifts, Given the subject matter, what kind of person with what kind of psychology would buy a Rolls Royce for their teacher? This is obviously a "led" thing to do (something in the cult's culture encouraged them to do so), for would you or I do it? Of course not. What kind of culture, derived from the originator, would encourage that? 😉 It seems clear that something was quite beyond rationality and certainly a universe apart from the normal Indian Guru/chela relationship. Normally a teacher would instantly refuse gifts unless they were minor and symbolic.
Ah, well, we live and learn, and it is actually very useful indeed to hear of these accounts. It puts all else along these lines into a context. In other words, not to get caught up in such things.
Venetian
RE: The Rebel
Dear Venetian
Once again you shock me
Someone as evolved as your goodself how can you stand in judgement of what Osho taught when you never entered his ashram or studied in depth his teachings?
On what real facts do you base your judgement? Third party information is not acceptable in a court of law.
I think you will find that most of the cars came from rich americans out to impress a Guru. As the rolls was all the rage in the 60's. And I think a lot of people have had experience of the american culture of 'ours is bigger and better then yours' and I agree most unenlightened of them hence why I have never felt drawn to experience the US culture but I have met some americans whilst travelling around Europe and Australia. And although this is a generalisation those devotees must have been very rich and the rich kid mentality is probably one of the hardest mindsets to convert to an enlightened one.
Due to the fact that to become enlightened one needs to release all personal desire to do so.
So I would impress, look at the culture and mindset that the givers came from and not the teacher that was the receiver. For without walking in the teacher's shoes you have not had the experience to know.
And I will say no more on the subject as you appear to be determined to concentrate on tainting the name of Osho instead of concentrating on his wisdom. And that brings much sadness to my heart for we are all brothers and sisters. It is time for the brotherhood of man to work together and build bridges of peace, replacing continued conflict that often leads to war and heartache.
Love beyond measure
Kim xx
RE: The Rebel
Words from Osho on materialism
"One has to be rich inside and one has to be rich outside too. Richness is beautiful; outer richness is beautiful just as inner richness is beautiful. Nothing is wrong in creating money. We are not begging, we are creating, and we will never beg. When we can create, why beg for it? We have never asked anybody to give money to us. When the money-minded person comes here he sees only his own mind. This is a mirror! You will find it always: your face mirrored in thousands of ways. But this has been the whole past. Mahavira renounced money, Buddha renounced money. I am against it -- I am far more in favor of a man like Janaka who lived like an emperor and yet became enlightened. I am far more in favor of Krishna who lived the life of an emperor and yet was enlightened. These people are far more balanced.'' Osho
Which brings us back to walking the middle path to achieve a balance in our lives.
Love beyond measure
kim xx
RE: The Rebel
Dear Venetian
Actually come to think of it Osho was the 'Master of Deconstruction' so perhaps he is working through you at times.
Dear All
The 16th Galaway Karmapa, leader of "Black Hat" school of Tibetan Buddhism, recognised Osho as a living Buddha. Osho spent the last years of his life discoursing almost exclusively on the teachings of a wide and often obscure selection of Zen masters.
Love beyond measure
Kim x
RE: The Rebel
Dear Sunanda
In respect of your friends
When one is a teacher one comes to accept that people make their own breakthroughs in their own time and space. One is just a catalyst attempting to make an inspirational intervention and some do fall by the wayside due to their own lack of integration and effort. But that does not degrade the truth and wisdom shared, all we can hope to do is hold that sacred space and their soul gently and graciously in the palm of our hand, so that they may be warmed by their own presence and realisations. It is truly wonderful as I am sure that you will agree when you witness the penny drop and the light switch on.
When a teacher is doing their job properly, the student is in awe of themselves and not the teacher. This is true empowerment which can then take them further onto the path of enlightenment whilst teaching their own souls to fly.
They say that the teacher arrives when the student is ready, but yet the teacher can also arrive before the student is ready.
Dance divine golden one
Kim xx
RE: The Rebel
As these are the Buddhist pages, one of the Buddha's sayings seems appropriate here:
"Come, behold this world, how it resembles an ornamented royal chariot in which fools flounder. For the wise, however, there is no attachment to it." (Dhammapada no. 171)
Love and peace,
Judy
RE: The Rebel
Dear Judy
Perhaps you would do us the honour of explaining why you feel this quote is appropriate to the thread and the intent of sharing the wisdom on the 'Rebel' by Osho.
Thank you
Kim xx
PS I have started a different thread for the sayings of Buddha