One weeks 'practical training' for the first course??? Two weeks for the Advanced??? Not sure I would be happy to use sharp instruments, sterile or not, with such limited practical knowledge.

A podiatrist that I used to work beside (I shared rooms in the building) was very scathing about courses such as these - she and her colleagues were frequently having to correct errors made by so called 'FHP's' who had done very shoddy work, mainly on older patients with underlying conditions.

Did your oriiginal course give you a BSc? If so, couldn't you opt for a university chiropody/podiatry course?

Hi jabba,

I studied at Regents park College on the 4 year part time course and was awarded an LCHom. Licentiate of the College of Homoeopathy which I suspect is useless in most peoples eyes.

I am in my forties so would be a mature student but think I would still have difficulty in getting on the University course because even if my previous qualification was recognised I worked in a completely different field through the nineties and have been unemployed for many years now.

I see there are 13 Universities for the BSc qualification, the nearest to me is 60 miles away.

I certainly like to feel confident in whatever I do and the 2 weeks practical training is a concern of mine.

They were discussing this on Radio 2 yesterday. Every free mag you pick up has adverts for Foot Health Professionals or Foot Health Practitioners now and loads of people are getting into it. Some of them are a bit naughty because they do very basic short courses and then expect to charge people the same rates as a qualified chiropodist or podiatrist, when they've done a degree course over several years.

Personally I would only go to a registered chiropodist because they know everything about the foot and leg - not just dry skin and untidy toenails. A chiropodist is also able to prescribe medication or give you a painkilling injection if necessary. I know an elderly lady who had her toenail cut down so low that it was painful for weeks and that was a FHP. :rolleyes:

Hi,

As a Podiatrist myself I can offer some qualified advice.
First of all - if you are able to, do a degree leading to BSc Podiatry. Entry shouldn't be too difficult for a mature student.

Secondly, not all FHP Courses are useless. The SMAE Course which is run in conjunction with Oxford Brookes Uni gives two weeks practical and is adequate for most simple foot health needs. Sterilisation of instruments is high on the teaching agenda (using any kind of sterile wipe on nippers is a no-no:eek: and would not look good in Court if infection/amputation was the result). This course also carries 60 credits which can be used for exemptions/access for other Uni courses in England and Wales.

Podiatrists are trained to a higher level than FHPs, but not all have done degrees, or are able to inject local anaesthetics, or prescribe.
I think it a mistake to generalise and say that all Pods are wonderful, while all FHPs are rubbish. In the real world ( and in my fairly extensive experience) there are good and bad in each camp.

David:)

Hi,

As a Podiatrist myself I can offer some qualified advice.
First of all - if you are able to, do a degree leading to BSc Podiatry. Entry shouldn't be too difficult for a mature student.

Secondly, not all FHP Courses are useless. The SMAE Course which is run in conjunction with Oxford Brookes Uni gives two weeks practical and is adequate for most simple foot health needs. Sterilisation of instruments is high on the teaching agenda (using any kind of sterile wipe on nippers is a no-no:eek: and would not look good in Court if infection/amputation was the result). This course also carries 60 credits which can be used for exemptions/access for other Uni courses in England and Wales.

Podiatrists are trained to a higher level than FHPs, but not all have done degrees, or are able to inject local anaesthetics, or prescribe.
I think it a mistake to generalise and say that all Pods are wonderful, while all FHPs are rubbish. In the real world ( and in my fairly extensive experience) there are good and bad in each camp.

David:)

Yes David, but it's very confusing for the general public. Also the majority of people who need footcare are older people and they can get even more confused.

My husband had a very nasty ingrowing toenail and he went to a qualified Chiropodist (now called Podiatrists). We checked that she was fully qualified and registered with the HPC (Health Professions Council). She had to give him an anaesthetic and prescription medication.

Now lets imagine he had gone to someone who had just done a distance course (and maybe one weeks practical training) and was a "Foot Health Professional". He would have had to pay for an appointment with her and then she'd presumably have to tell him to go to someone more qualified:confused:

Just about every week there are new business cards going up in our local shops for people who have paid to go on these short courses. One of the women was working in a food factory just a few months ago and is now calling herself a chiropodist (which I think she is not supposed to do) and I would not let her anywhere near my feet.

very

Thanks very much Vontabago.

As I said in my first post it is not allowed to call oneself a Chiropodist/Podiatrist if they have only completed the FHP course and I certainly would only use FHP on any adverts.

Also if anyone telephoned asking if I can treat ingrowing toenails or administer local anesthesia or prescribe medication I would tell them no.

My main concerns are Sterilisation and Indemnity Insurance and wanted to know if the home study and 2 week practical course covers them adequately.

There is a local Podiatrist that I have spoken to and he has offered to let me sit in with him.
As I have been unemployed for a while I think the FHP course could be a good way for me to get into things and then if I think I want to make a career out of it I could apply for the Podiatry course and would be more likely to get accepted.

Retraining as a Foot Health Practitioner

Hello webthal,
I think it is a shame that you did not continue to make a career out of Homeopathy, especially as you spent so musch time studying for the qualification. Is this not now a possiblity?

As a chiropodist/podiatrist of many years experience I can tell you that making a living as an FHP is not as easy as the training organisations would like prospective students to believe. There is one training school that tells prospective students that they can earn £35.00 per treatment. This may well hold true in London and the Home Counties, but in the North-West most FHPs charge about £15/17, and that includes travelling expenses.

You asked about sterilization. My undestanding of the autoclave laws is as follows as from 2009. The minimum autoclave temperature should be 134deg C. and there should be a printer attached to the autoclave to record each cycle. This means that a toploader "pressure-cooker type" will not be effective, as the temperature only reaches 126deg and a printer cannot be attached to it. In addition there should be an audit trail that matches with an autoclave log. The benchtop type of autoclave will take up quite some space as it is the size of a large microwave, and for H & S reasons should not be operated in a kitchen, for example. A separate decontamination area on the premises will be required, such as an outbuilding, with areas for scrubbing or otherwise removing debris from instruments.
This system will require you to have written evidence of a statuatory annual inspection Under the Pressure Systems Regulations 2000 and also you will need pressure vessel Insurance as operating a pressure vessel will not be covered by your home insurance.
The cost of an autoclave can be anything from £2,500. If you want to use a vaccuum autoclave, which sterilizes instruments in pouches, then these are more expensive, starting at about £3,500. You might be able to pick up a second hand one on e-bay, for example, but as with all thngs in life one tends to get what one pays for, and a second-hand one will not have a manufacturer's warranty.

The autoclave will be the most expensive part of your set-up costs and many training schools do not make potential students aware of this. As I said in a previous post it will take quite some time to recoup these costs as you build up the business.

In summary - the problem is with footcare that you do not know that you need the depth and breadth of trainiing that a tertiary level of education provides, until you are faced with a problem that needs that level of knowledge and skill.

If you are entering the world of footcare as an FHP then you will be at the lowest end of the market, and your fees will need to reflect this. If you try to raise your prices then the clientelle you seek to reach will not be able to afford you and the wise will not purchase. And why should they when they can have an HPC registered Chiropodist/Podiatrist for the same price?

The subject of indemnity insurance will be discussed by your training school and probably arranged via a broker for you.

I would urge you to seriously consider the degree course in Podiatry as it opens so many more doors for you.

Good FHP's

Hi,
I'm an FHP and I love it.
I did the Stonebridge course three years ago and have been running a mobile practise ever since.
I am responsible and would never treat anything I knew I couldn't handle and I wouldn't charge in such instances.
I think there is a place in the market for people who want their feet looking after (more than a pedicure), but don't want to pay a fortune to see a Chiropodist.
I'm just expanding my business and getting some premises so there is plenty of work out there.
I've just had a call from an old client who moved to a chiropodist (so she could claim on her healthcare) who now has an infected corn - caused by an over zealous chiropodist!! So there is definately good and bad of both around.
If you take in everything you can on the FHP course, be responsible and continue to practise and do further learning and don't claim to be a Chiropodist then its a good career.
Oh and also I have a friend who is SMAE trained and on the HPC register, so you don't have to be degree trained (she did her training before rules changed).

FHP training

Hello LucieFHP,
It is interesting to see an FHP here.

I see that you did the Stonebridge course and I wonder if you did the 5 or 10 days practical training? I wonder how you feel that this minimal training (compared to a pod) helps you to deal with all the myriad condition you will come across when working in footcare?

You also say about people "not wanting to pay a fortune to see a chiropodist".
I wonder what you mean by "a fortune" as pricing structures are all subjective?
Also, if you can provide treatment so much cheaper than a chiropodist I wonder what it is that you are not doing that a chiropodist does do?

I would also be interested to know what your scope of practice is and what conditions you would refer on?

You also say that you know someone who got an infected corn from an overzealous chiropodist. I wonder why this person did not go back to the chiropodist if there was a problem? If they have absolute proof that it was the chiropodist who caused the infection, why did they not put a complaint in to the Health Professions Council, which is the regulatory body for Chiropodists/Podiatrists - or even to the Chiropodists own professional body?

Bad-mouthing other professionals on a forum is not only unprofessional IMO, it does not help to remove poorly performing practitioners from the market place.

It would be enlightening to have your opinion on these matters.

FHP training

Hello webthal,
As a Podiatrist I am fully trained in the medicine, anatomy, physiology, & function underlying foot pathologies. I also received 1200 hours of clinical training, supervised by experienced & qualified (to MSc level, in most cases) podiatrists prior to graduating.

As such, I graduated with a minimum level of competence to deal with all that I saw in my clinics, including advanced peripheral vascular disease, ulcers & chronic wounds, pain of mechanical cause, infection, conditions requiring nail surgery and other invasive techniques etc.

I am concerned that these FHP courses do not offer a similar level of training & experience, and as such fail to see how anyone who completes the course can consider themselves competent to deal with the conditions they may have to deal with. It is all very well to think that all podiatrists do is cut toenails & corns, but I assure you that there is very much more to even such apparently simple tasks than it first appears. By which I refer mainly to the possibility of underlying (possibly undiagnosed) pathology, e.g. peripheral vascular disease, neurological impairment, diabetes etc etc.

I am sure I will have inadvertently offended someone with this post - but I have on more than one occasion had to deal with former patients of people whose training was most certainly not the equivalent (or even close) to the full-time tertiary degree/diploma.

The public are not protected because there is no regulation of FHPs - they are working outside the legislative framework for Allied Health Professionals. So to whom do the public complain in the event of a poor service? Some of the unregulated operate 'below the radar' using mobile phone numbers only and do not give receipts with a landline number or contact address.

I reckon the best thing you could do for your wallet & for the benefit of those you seek to help would be to get onto the proper course, i.e. BSc(Hons) Podiatry. Some institutions now offer the course as a part-time option, if full-time is too much for you.

I long for the day when the powers that be change the legal framework & protect the function of AHPs, rather than just our titles. Then, & only then, will the British public have the protection it deserves.

It would be enlightening to have your opinion on these matters.

You and Poderama are welcome to mine.

You might want to take a look at the HPC website at the complaints. If I was a podiatrist I would be embarrassed to tell anyone I was listed.

And if you want to know what a lot of podiatrists really think of the HPC as a regulatory body, then I suggest checking out thatfootsite.com’s forum. I also see a complementary therapy clinic was targeted earlier this month for the latest round of venom from the podiatry profession.

The insinuation that FHP’s are doing something dodgy just because they use a mobile phone is pretty laughable. I am not an FHP, but using a mobile number keeps my business separate from my private life. It is my children’s home too, and it is not their responsibility to talk to prospective clients, or take messages. It was a commercial decision I am perfectly entitled to take, as are FHPs.

Most therapists are either known locally, or work from clinics where there is normally a practice manager who would know where they live, and have their home number. I would expect them to have been interviewed and their credentials and insurance examined, just like anyone else working there.

Like the rest of us, FHP’s may also have websites giving further information about their training and their skills, and the name of any professional body they belong to. If they don’t have websites it may be because they don’t need to rely on that type of advertising – word of mouth recommendation and local leafleting may be enough.

Many FHPs are coming from the nursing profession, many from complementary therapy. They pay a lot of money for their training and their equipment so it certainly isn’t a get rich quick scheme.

The 2 FHP’s I know obtain the majority of their work through personal recommendation, and referrals from therapists. Their leaflets are clear about what they can offer, and if anything comes up that is outside their scope of practice, they refer. They don’t mention the words chiropody or podiatry in their marketing material. They do ongoing additional training, just like most of us do in our own field. They are providing a good service for a reasonable fee, and they are working entirely within the law. Their prices are roughly what other complementary therapists are charging for the same amount of treatment time. i.e. they are not at the “lower end” of the foot market, they have commercial overheads the same as other therapists working alongside them in the complementary health industry as a whole and their prices are set accordingly. What a podiatrist or a chiropodist charges for doing exactly the same treatment is irrelevant, and if an FHP is charging less it doesn’t automatically follow that they are cutting corners. If they are charging more, it doesn’t automatically follow they are ripping people off.

If someone wants what an FHP is legally entitled to offer and the price is acceptable, they can book, preferably from recommendation. If they want a podiatrist or a chiropodist, or something an FHP can’t do, they can go or be referred elsewhere. Should be simple right?

From what I’ve seen, the biggest gripe seems to be that FHP’s are doing some of the “easier” work that a chiropodist or podiatrist in private practice may have lucratively done in the past, which is probably financially biting those in private practice, and is likely to affect the future potential earnings of someone entering the podiatry profession now intending to go into PP. Commercial sour grapes perhaps?

But promoting podiatry as a regulated profession over unregulated FHPs? Look at the complaints on the HPC website. Look at the online sneering of the “grandparented” by the podiatry profession themselves. And the “regulated” can go under the radar any time they like by posting anonymously on unmoderated podiatry forums, or trawling the internet looking for victims, and now it’s got to the point where some of them think nothing of shafting the complementary therapy field as a whole by going after clinics.

Can't see much for podiatry to boast about. :confused:

Rustic :wave:

FHPs etc.

Rustic,
Of course you are entitled to have an opinion but I am not sure where you are coming from therapy-wise.

I find it strange that whenever an FHP is asked a few pertinent questions they disappear and someone else seems to speak for them!

The whole point of the HPC website is that it IS transparent for all 13 professions that it regulates. There is no comparable regulation for FHPs, in fact no regulation at all. Neither is there a minimum laid down standard, in law, of quality of service delivery. So how can FHPs who fails to perform adequately be brought to task? How can the public be protected when there is no legal enforcement of standards?

It is true that there are a lot of complaints about the HPC - mainly for what it doesn't do, rather than for what it does. The biggest complaint is that any chiropodist that gets struck off can set up in practise as an FHP the next day and the HPC can do nothing about that. I would have thought that FHPs wouldn't be too happy about that either!

You say that most therapists work from clinics and I am sure that is true. Most FHPs don't, and there is the difference as they have no base where they can be contacted. I certainly don't know any FHPs in my area that have a website or any premises.

Your statement "What a podiatrist or a chiropodist charges for doing exactly the same treatment is irrelevant," is itself irrelevent as chiropodists don't give the same treatments as FHPs ! Chiropodists practice chiropody but I am not sure what FHPs do, hence my question about scope of practice which seems no-one is able to answer.

"If someone wants what an FHP is legally entitled to offer and the price is acceptable, they can book, preferably from recommendation." So what ARE they legally entitled to offer?

"From what I’ve seen, the biggest gripe seems to be that FHP’s are doing some of the “easier” work that a chiropodist or podiatrist in private practice may have lucratively done in the past, which is probably financially biting those in private practice,"
I can't really comment on that because, as I have said, I am not sure what FHPs actually do. Also, most pods I know have a dedicated simple nail-cutting session at their clinics to cater for those who only require a basic service. So I think you could be off the mark there.

I think you will find that by far the biggest complaint is about those FHPs who try to pass themselves off as pods.

"Look at the online sneering of the “grandparented” by the podiatry profession themselves"
It is true there is a lot of disatisfaction with the grandparenting process that allowed about 2,000 practitioners onto the HPC register without a test of competance. Can you really blame a graduate pod who has spent 3/4 years at Uni and about 1000+ clinical hours being put under the same umbrella with someone who has done a year's distance learning and 2 weeks practical training, being just a bit ticked off?
The unpalatable fact of the matter is that the problem will not go away and attitudes will not change until all the grandparented have retired and chiropody/podiatry becomes a degree-only profession.

"and now it’s got to the point where some of them think nothing of shafting the complementary therapy field as a whole by going after clinics. "

What on earth does that mean??????

"Can't see much for podiatry to boast about"

That's your opinion, and as I said before, you are entitled to have it.

Your statement "What a podiatrist or a chiropodist charges for doing exactly the same treatment is irrelevant," is itself irrelevent as chiropodists don't give the same treatments as FHPs ! Chiropodists practice chiropody but I am not sure what FHPs do, hence my question about scope of practice which seems no-one is able to answer.

I’m surprised you don’t know what FHP’s do, that forum I mentioned has had no problem finding websites of FHP’s and finding out what they offer.

If you don’t know what treatments an FHP does how can you claim that chiropodists don’t give the same treatments?

"From what I’ve seen, the biggest gripe seems to be that FHP’s are doing some of the “easier” work that a chiropodist or podiatrist in private practice may have lucratively done in the past, which is probably financially biting those in private practice,"
I can't really comment on that because, as I have said, I am not sure what FHPs actually do. Also, most pods I know have a dedicated simple nail-cutting session at their clinics to cater for those who only require a basic service. So I think you could be off the mark there.

Would you agree that the “most pods” you know in private practices who have been offering simple nail cutting sessions may now be losing work to FHP’s? Or are you seriously claiming not to know that FHPs are allowed to cut nails? If so, I can tell you it’s in their scope of practice.

"and now it’s got to the point where some of them think nothing of shafting the complementary therapy field as a whole by going after clinics."

What on earth does that mean??????

The FHPs are damned if they don’t work in clinics or have websites (must be trying to stay under the radar) and the clinics are now damned if they do. Specific to complementary therapy – when that forum finds one that is in a clinic, someone claims to have reported the clinic website to Trading Standards, without bothering to check with the HPC first if the advertising is indeed illegal, or giving a clinic (comprising members of therapies outside the foot health industry such as those who post on this forum) an opportunity to respond first. i.e. in my opinion, before checking the facts properly, the podiatry profession has started dragging down massage therapists, reflexologists, homeopaths etc etc etc with reports to Trading Standards which appear to be based on nothing more than commercial sour grapes.

As you say, podiatry being nothing to boast about is an opinion I am entitled to.

Rustic

FHP training etc

Rustic,
I am confused as to what FHPs actually do as, being unregulated by Statute, unlike chiropodists/podiatrists, they have no written scope of practice.
As the title FHP is not a protected in law then it can be used by anyone without regard to training level, so it not surprising that the distinction between treatments and levels of service provision can get blurred. It seems that some FHPs not only provide simple footcare but also paint nails and offer massage and weight-loss services!

"If you don’t know what treatments an FHP does how can you claim that chiropodists don’t give the same treatments? ;)"

Because chiropodists/podiatrists practice chiropody/podiatry as clearly defined by the Government Legisalator the HPC ! There is no document in Statute to describe what an FHP does, in fact it seems that their "scope of practice" allows for a great deal of creativity. As there is no written Scope of Practice I wonder how FHPs know when they have strayed outside it?

"Would you agree that the “most pods” you know in private practices who have been offering simple nail cutting sessions may now be losing work to FHP’s? Or are you seriously claiming not to know that FHPs are allowed to cut nails? If so, I can tell you it’s in their scope of practice. ;)"

I cannot speak for "most" pods but I know that during the economic downturn all businesses I personally know have been losing work. Whether it is to FHPs or not I can't say as we don't ring patients up to see why they haven't been to see us!

"Specific to complementary therapy – when that forum finds one that is in a clinic, someone claims to have reported the clinic website to Trading Standards, without bothering to check with the HPC first if the advertising is indeed illegal, or giving a clinic (comprising members of therapies outside the foot health industry such as those who post on this forum) an opportunity to respond first. i.e. in my opinion, before checking the facts properly, the podiatry profession has started dragging down massage therapists, reflexologists, homeopaths etc etc etc with reports to Trading Standards which appear to be based on nothing more than commercial sour grapes. :("

It is quite a hefty allegation to says that pods are targeting complentary therapy clinics just for the nuisance value and I wonder if you have any facts to back it up?

However I think it could illustrate very well what problems FHPs can cause if they are not scrupulous with their marketing. If an FHP chooses to work in a multi-disciplinary clinic and misleads ( either intentionally or unintentionally - by offering chiropody/podiatry, calling themselves a chiropodist etc. etc) then it won't be long before someone complains and the clinic itself will get caught up in the fallout.

"or giving a clinic (comprising members of therapies outside the foot health industry such as those who post on this forum) an opportunity to respond first."

Respond how? To explain why they are breaking the law?
In any case, Trading Standards will not get involved if there is no case to answer.

"the podiatry profession has started dragging down massage therapists, reflexologists, homeopaths etc etc etc with reports to Trading Standards which appear to be based on nothing more than commercial sour grapes.:("

IMO you have a skewed viewpoint here. It is in fact some FHPs who are dragging down other therapists by laying themselves open to TS investigation using misleading advertising and causing problems for the centres they work at. Pods are only highlighting the problem, so please don't shoot the messenger.

You have flagged up the number of complaints on the HPC website as a negative indicator of the profession of Chiropody/Podiatry. Can you tell me what mechanism is in place to protect the public by removing underperforming FHPs from the market-place, and where it can be seen operating?

(much cut....) Rustic,
I am confused as to what FHPs actually do as, being unregulated by Statute, unlike chiropodists/podiatrists, they have no written scope of practice.

Hi Rustic,

I got tired some time ago of explaining that FHPs do most of what Chiropodists/Podiatrists do, apart from administer local anaesthetics, perform surgery, and prescribe. Their scope of practice is outlined in their Professional Indemnity Insurance.

Realpod - is there anything in the above which you don't understand?
Honestly?

And do you really believe that the HPC exisits to protect the public?

Or that people who treat feet for a living shouldn't be carrying out other therapies - you mentioned weightloss;), but we both know that many Podiatrists also carry out Marigold Therapy (which is, as far as I understand it, a kind of watered-down homeopathy for the untrained).

Do you know how long it takes to train as a Homeopath?

David:)

Hpc

Hi guys,
in my opinion theres good and bad in every profession, I have been both happy and unhappy with various FHPs and (BSc) Pods, just as there are those unhappy with physios, chiros, sports therapists etc. If people work in their scope of practice, which should be outlined in Professional Indemnity Insurance, then there shouldnt be a problem. It happens in all professions that people work outside of their scope of practice....look on here at how many massage therapists ask for advice on how to treat various problems that they havent been trained to deal with....that unfortunately is something that we all have to deal with.

Regarding HPC, they arent perfect, but at least they offer some protection for the public, as do GOC, BCA and hopefully CNHC. Most of the complementary therapy professional associations also have agreements so that they can have their own fitness to practice hearings in the cases of those struck off from the above, so it does afford some protection, but its obviously not infallible.

The above 'agencies' dont respond to malicious/anonymous complaints, which affords the therapist some protection too, which is, I suspect, why some of the more malicious complaints go through trading standards instead of regulator/governing body/professional association.

FHP training etc

Before we go any further I think that DavidmH should declare his interest in this area.

David, you are a member of an association that provides indemnity insurance for FHPs ( and also yourself) therefore your postings will be biased in that vein. You are also in the business of selling weighloss programs.

So perhaps it would help if you declared your interest?

So, you are saying that FHPs do most of what chiropodist/podiatrists do? So do they debride ulcers, work with high risk cases as a part of a multidiscilpinary team, work in the NHS? I think not. They do not do anything more than basic footcare that could be done by the patient if they were able.

What has the HPC's remit got to do with the discussion in hand? FHPs are not regulated by the HPC. Indeed they are regulated by no-one .

I have no idea how long it takes to train as a homeopath? So what is your point?

You say that FHPs scope of practice is in their professional indemnity insurance, so how can a member of Joe Public have access to that? Please bear in mind that the title FHP is not protected and can be used used by anyone regardless of training levels.

By contrast all the HPC regulated professions including Chiropody/Podiatry have a written scope of practice that is accessible on the HPC website

So where does Joe Public go if they receive unsatisfactory treatment from an FHP? Perhaps you can enlighten us on that? As they have no goverment regulator maybe the Trading Standards Dept would be the next port of call for an unhappy patient?

IMO FHPs are a part of the footcare market that will not go away. I, personally, can tolerate them if they do not profess to be more than what they are. I think that they should be regulated. Unfortunately some of them have delusions of adequacy and market themselves as chiropodists, thus causing a lot of bad feeling amongst pods.

I hope that anyone reading this thread will weigh up the pros and cons and seriously think about whether or not they want to invest money in becoming an FHP.
I would recommend the degree podiatry course to anyone who wants a career in footcare.

Realpod

The mechanism in place to protect the public from underperforming pods and chiropodists appears to be an organisation most of the public has never heard of, (your profession’s public relations problem, not mine or an FHPs), and where getting chucked off the register doesn’t stop them seeing patients. And didn’t I read somewhere that the HPC can’t take away a podiatry degree?

Can you explain exactly what an underperforming FHP is getting away with that an underperforming podiatrist cant? :confused:

I did not allege that pods are targeting complimentary therapy clinics just for the nuisance value. I said “i.e. in my opinion, before checking the facts properly, the podiatry profession has started dragging down massage therapists, reflexologists, homeopaths etc etc etc with reports to Trading Standards which appear to be based on nothing more than commercial sour grapes."

You state “Trading Standards will not get involved if there is no case to answer.” If Trading Standards gets a complaint, would you not agree that they would have to do something to follow it up? i.e. they would have to investigate to decide if there was a case to answer, be it individual FHP or a clinic.

Some podiatrists apparently don’t know what FHP’s do, :confused: yet there seems to be no problem reporting FHPs or clinics for advertising things podiatrists claim they don’t know is within an FHPs scope of practice. Add to that the fact that the protection is MISuse of title, podiatrists do not own the USE of the words chiropody, podiatry etc. Some podiatrists not understanding the legal difference means some pods are not highlighting a problem, they are IMO committing commercial terrorism.

However I think it could illustrate very well what problems FHPs can cause if they are not scrupulous with their marketing. If an FHP chooses to work in a multi-disciplinary clinic and misleads ( either intentionally or unintentionally - by offering chiropody/podiatry, calling themselves a chiropodist etc. etc) then it won't be long before someone complains and the clinic itself will get caught up in the fallout.

If the “someone (who) complains” to Trading Standards is a disgruntled Joe Public it is one thing, but there is no professional excuse for a podiatrist avoiding even the most basic courtesy of a phone call or an email to a multi-discipline clinic, or an FHP. Members of your profession are now dragging the complementary health field as a whole into something the pod/chiropody associations and the HPC could be dealing with privately, and respectfully of other practitioners, instead of washing their dirty laundry in public.

Rustic

Before we go any further I think that DavidmH should declare his interest in this area.

David, you are a member of an association that provides indemnity insurance for FHPs ( and also yourself) therefore your postings will be biased in that vein. You are also in the business of selling weighloss programs.

So perhaps it would help if you declared your interest?

So, you are saying that FHPs do most of what chiropodist/podiatrists do? So do they debride ulcers, work with high risk cases as a part of a multidiscilpinary team, work in the NHS? I think not. They do not do anything more than basic footcare that could be done by the patient if they were able.

I'm a member of the British Association of Chiropodists and Podiatrists. They provide Pods (and FHPs) with good-quality Indemnity Insurance. They also train FHPs - which is what is annoying you I expect.

I'm pleased to see, from some of the Speakers at our Annual Conference this year, that you seem not to speak for all of the Podiatry Establishment.
Prof Steve West, Podiatrist and Vice-Chancellor of the Uni of the West of England talked about the future of private health care.
Dr Sue Barnett, Podiatrist and Senior Lecturer at the same Uni spoke on foot pressures and foot mechanics.
Oh, and Janet McWhinney, Associate Solicitor at Berrymans Lace Mawer (London) spoke on clinical negligence law.

To put a little meat on the bones of your assertion that Pods "debride ulcers, work with high risk cases as a part of a multidiscilpinary team, work in the NHS", actually - most of them don't.

As far as I am aware very few grandparented Pods have been accepted for NHS work. That, in my estimation, removes around 20% of Pods from your argument straight away.
Of the remainder, we know that the SCP membership (the biggest Podiatry Professional Body) is composed of at least 50% private practitioners. They won't be doing much with high risk cases. Of the remainder, a proportion of those who work in the NHS - but by no means all - will be treating high risk cases.

David:)

FHP training etc

Davidmh,
Thank you for declaring your commercial interests and bias in this matter. It makes the debate more understandable for the reader.

If we are going to make true comparisons, I think we need to differentiate between the different types of chiropodists/podiatrists. ( If those outside the industry reading this thread are not already confused, they will be very soon.)

The chiropodists/podiatrists that are members of your organisation (about 1,500 of the total number of 12,581 HPC registered chiropodists/podiatrists - feel free to correct my figures) are those who trained by a years correspondence course followed by 2 weeks practical training. This qualification was historically not accepted for either State Registration or NHS employment.

The chiropodists/podiatrists that are members of the Society of Chiropodists and Podiatrists comprise almost entirely of those practitioners that have followed a 3 year f/t Diploma Course including 1,500+ clinical hours or a 3/4 year degree course with approx 1000+ clinical hours. There are some grandparented members who have upgraded their skills by completing Local Anaesthetic Modules and top up degrees but I would say these make up less than 100 practitioners in total.

When the Health Professions Cuncil was created some of the practitioners that trained by distance learning were allowed - by a process called "grandparenting" - onto the HPC register without a test of competance.

So, it could be fair to say that FHPs do similar work to those grandparented chiropodists as they both have completed a similar minimal training course.

To say that FHPs can do the same work and provide the same level of service as the Diploma and degree-level pods, is really a bit silly especially as I understand that the length of the practical training for FHPs is as low as 5 days for one course I have seen.

I don't think I ever said I spoke for the whole of the profession of Chiropody/Podiatry. My only interest in the profession is making a living by practicing Chiropody/Podiatry and I am not involved in any way with marketing any products to healthcare profesionals.

I think it would be fair to say that you yourself have not been involved with generalist chiropody for some years now. So I wonder how you can effectively judge what the attitude of the grass roots chiropodist is?

The speakers that you mention are very knowledgeble but they are just that, professional speakers and they will tailor their lectures to the academic level and type of audience they have. No professional speaker will tell their audience anything they don't want to hear if they want repeat bookings!

The degree-trained an diploma level pods in IPP may not "be doing much with high risk cases" per se. However, they do have the underpinning knowledge to know what to do if one comes through the surgery door. That may not require actual treatment but speedy referral via the correct pathways to avoid a potentially serious complication.
Can you honestly tell me that FHPs after a few days clinical trainiing could correctly deal with either a malignant melanoma, a Charcot Foot or a Sunset Foot?

I make no scret of the fact I am opposed to FHP training for the above reasons given and also because it causes yet more confusion in the minds of the public about the profession of chiropody/podiatry. Incidently I do not class FHPs as part of the profession, as they have chosen to operate outwith the present legislation.

Please note, this thread is closed until the moderators decide what to do with it.

Futher to Paul's post, we have now removed all the posts that were off topic to the subject raised for discussion. It is unfair, and disrespectful to the thread starter that a minority had taken over to argue amongst themselves regarding which profession was more credible/worthwhile, and views becoming far too political.

Some members who participated in this thread may recall that back in May a similar thread on this topic became equally heated and was ultimately locked by the moderators for this reason in part, as well as the manner in which members were addressing each other.

Please note that if the exchange of political and argumentative views resumes, posts will be deleted without warning or notification.

On behalf of the Moderating Team,

calla lily

Stonebridge Facts

I did the Foot Health Practitioner Course with Stonebridge early last year. The fees for the first part was nearly GBP 500. The course of about 470 pages consist of 198 pages on setting up your practice and compiling a marketing plan and bussiness plan. the rest of the pages = 270 plus, is dedicated to physiology and biology(at least 70 %) and the rest are related to foot health related issues. This leaves very little for the real issue.
My firm conviction is that I would have learned more by perusing the internet than this course offered me. One must remember that the
Requirements for Entry are:
There is no experience or previous qualifications required for enrolment on this course. It is available to all students, of all academic backgrounds.

Seeing it at this background, it would be criminal to use this qualification as a reflection of quality.
Yes, the practical side put things more in balance, but really, this is not supposed to be a course in marketing. We are primaraly working with people.

I did the Foot Health Practitioner Course with Stonebridge early last year. The fees for the first part was nearly GBP 500. The course of about 470 pages consist of 198 pages on setting up your practice and compiling a marketing plan and bussiness plan. the rest of the pages = 270 plus, is dedicated to physiology and biology(at least 70 %) and the rest are related to foot health related issues. This leaves very little for the real issue.
My firm conviction is that I would have learned more by perusing the internet than this course offered me. One must remember that the
Requirements for Entry are:
There is no experience or previous qualifications required for enrolment on this course. It is available to all students, of all academic backgrounds.

Seeing it at this background, it would be criminal to use this qualification as a reflection of quality.
Yes, the practical side put things more in balance, but really, this is not supposed to be a course in marketing. We are primaraly working with people.

Unhappy with a Course?

Don't just highlight it here - take the Providers to Court.- I'm quite serious:cool:.

David

David:)

hi guys,
thanks for that response munchboy. These types of courses can be dangerous for the public, and can amount to no more than useless bits of photocopied paper.

The more people complain, the more these providers have to raise their standards.

I think this year there will be more companies like that taken to court over false advertising.

I've just had a call from an old client who moved to a chiropodist (so she could claim on her healthcare) who now has an infected corn - caused by an over zealous chiropodist!! So there is definately good and bad of both around.

an infected corn, how can hyperkerotic tissue get infected, What you mean is bacteria that lives on the skin invaded the site due to a hem, if a podiatrist had hemed a patient they are trained to dress and advice, if the patient did not follow this advice, an infection could have got in to the wound. your freind who has grandparenting rights still has limited ability and can only practice to there scope of knowledge (HPC stadards)

Message for LucieFHP (sorry I don'tknow how else to send a message, I am new to this site). I see you did a Stonebridge College course in Foot care. Have you done any of their other courses? If so would you recommend them or not? I have a friend doing an A & P Diploma course through them as she wants a seperate qualification and it it is credited by an exernal body, I think its the NCFE.

Also generally to anyone have you done courses through this College?

Thanks
Jane