Yoga is what you want it to be. For some people it can be simply an exercise and means of becoming more flexible etc. However yoga can incorporate spiritual practices for those who are interested in that area of it. Although how something being spiritual makes it anti-christian I do not know. Perhaps the reverend in question needs reminding about the holy spirit.

Love and Reiki Hugs

I agree... yoga can be what you want it to be. It is originally (c.5000 years ago!) based along side the roots of the Hindu religion - but is not religious and not at all 'anti-Christian', in fact one of my long standing teachers is a practising Catholic. I would say it's physical, it's spiritual and it's a physical therapy... but you can take from it what you want - stress relief, relaxation, etc, etc. Certainly, there is no preaching that goes on within a yoga class, in fact, independence is encouraged. There's yoga philosophy sometimes mentioned in a weekly class, which covers some of the ancient Hindu texts (eg. the Upanishads and the Bhagavad Gita), but the overall philosophy is not very different from Christian philosophy... in fact, very similar... loving thy neighbour as you love yourself, the 10 commandments, the sermon on the Mount, etc, aren't so far removed from the yamas and the niyamas, etc, etc. It accepts all people from all religions and does not have an opinion on religions, so can't be anti-Christian.

This is a huge debate, actually, and I think it's a shame if it's perceived to be a problem. I have done yoga in Church Halls, Quaker Meeting Houses, a Convent and other religious buildings and never come across anything other than mutual respect.

On the one hand I agree with Energylz, that how can it be anti-Christian if it's spiritual? But that leads back to whether hatha yoga is spiritual or "just exercise", since we know that many Christians consider other spiritual beliefs to be anti-Christian.

As a non-expert on hatha yoga, and a Westerner, I would have gone along with the "hatha yoga is what you make of it" idea until the last couple of years. I'd have to re-read my Patanjali, but I very much doubt hatha yoga is considered to be just exercise, and Patanjali would be the source to look it up in. Several weeks ago I was on a pranayama-oriented yoga retreat, stemming from a very traditional background indeed, and hatha yoga there was taught entirely in order for the body to more easily and more flexibly fit into the postures necessary for spiritual practice. It was entirely an aid to spiritual practice, though by building up the necessary muscles and flexibility.

And although I really don't think he needs to be concerned, a Hindu friend who is English and an academic is also part of a very traditional Hindu spiritual background, and feels people don't know what they are getting into with hatha yoga, since many postures are designed to aid the release of kundalini. (However from most classes I've had in the West - and also this year in India in one ashram - he needn't be concerned as there seemed no understanding of this innate nature and aspect to hatha yoga.)

But again, to go back to the source and Patanjali, hatha is one of the yogas or yogs, designed by the very name - yoga ("union") - to unite the "human" with the Divine. It's not that you achieve this by hatha alone, but that hatha is used in conjunction with other yogas.

I'd have to look up the 'school' or precise tradition I had a retreat with some weeks back, but the hatha there was extremely traditional (absolutely nothing like anything most Westerners teach it): the emphasis was quite different to the Western norm. Just for example, you had to intimately know the name of every posture, and the outer and inner meaning of that name. And you had to know exactly what the purpose of the posture was as an aid in your meditation practice, which was also daily. Eyes closed, you repeated the posture name syllable by syllable until you had it correct.

Thirdly, from the very beginning you had a kind of one-to-one help, your eyes being closed during the postures but the teacher moving around and making even the tiniest adjustments to you so that from the start you were getting it just right: none of this stuff about a class of fifteen just roughly copying a teacher's posture in front of them from vision. (You never opened your eyes, but followed a careful verbal instruction.) Between each posture we relaxed into a meditation state I'd also have to call 'spiritual'. All very, very interesting and different!!! And a meditation in itself, for sure.

In short, from these few experiences I'm starting to see that the West (and probably many Indians too) have watered hatha down to the point where it's mistaken as being just for health.

V

When I started practising yoga years ago I was not aware of the spiritual side, it was merely a form of exercise.

This is an extract from <a class="go2wpf-bbcode" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="www.classicalyoga.org">www.classicalyoga.org
"~ The various spiritual disciplines of Yoga constitute the religion of Sanatan Dharma also known as Hinduism. (Sanatan Dharma also "gave birth" to the Buddhist, Jain and Sikh religions, therefore yogic disciplines are ethically taught within the context of those religions as well.) One does not, for example, go into a Christian church and greet them with "Namaste" and then proceed to do puja to Ganesha, chant Aum, sit in Lotus and meditate. These are all specific to the yogic path of Hinduism. To not understand and respect these facts is to be uninformed, at best. ~ Many come to learn so-called "yoga" and have no idea that this is all about the religion of Hinduism. Naturally, because the so-called "teacher" is not even aware of what is yoga. Again, one would not go to a Mosque, for example, and expect a Swami or a Rabbi to be teaching. This is in no way a denunciation of the Muslim, Hindu or Jewish religions, but simply a matter of common sense and respect for the uniqueness of the many spiritual/religious paths. Obviously the teacher of any aspect of Yoga/Hinduism is, firstly, a Hindu. (BTW, just as anyone can become a Christian, anyone can become a Hindu.)"
I don't know about the second last sentence-how many Yoga teachers in this country regard themselves as Hindu?

I don't know about the second last sentence-how many Yoga teachers in this country regard themselves as Hindu?

Perhaps they should be, or else not teach it?

Yoga (I don't mean hatha only but all the yogas combined) are a system of practice which works. It seems to me that if something works, such as knowing a good mechanic who can fix your car, then you don't have to be a completely committed Hindu to go to him and use him. But the teacher, I thnk, does need to be.

In this analogy, you do need to want to fix a car; similarly it seems that yoga is a practice intended for those interested in spiritual growth. Actually "yoga" means suspension of the mind and emotions (so that a Higher state can come through I'd say).

Hatha yoga (involving asanas or physical positions) is but one eighth of one whole thing - raja yoga. It's pointless and even silly in the view of some to practice hatha yoga without any involvement in all of the others. Patanjali, roughly two thousand years ago, wrote the Yoga Sutras which describe Raja Yoga - the "Royal Yoga" leading to liberation from mortality, or from the normal human state of being. Raja Yoga has eight "limbs" or aspects to it. For example, it begins with non-violence, morality, etc. As I discovered in my recent retreat, hatha (physical position) yoga is but one stage - flexing the body and strengthening it in preparation for pranayama and meditation. I don't know if ancient Indians actually will ever have done hatha yoga as stand-alone practice at all - that was never its point.

Given all this, Westerners who teach hatha yoga alone don't really seem to have a clue what they are doing? (Just to be controversial - although it does seem that way.)

This all seems clear from the Wikipedia entry on Patanjali and the Sutras:

I can only repeat that my experience of several weeks ago, and how hatha yoga was taught there, and the reasons for doing it, were a complete revelation to me. I'd now never remotely consider going to any classes where only hatha yoga is taught. And I wouldn't in fact be taught by a non-Hindu I think, as I now realise the complete system of practice I briefly partook of was certainly a Hindu way of life through and through. If someone were not Hindu, they'd skimp on some of the whole or holistic system that's used by authentic teachers. In fact, the teaching comes down through a respected lineage of teachers - you don't learn real hatha yoga from an evening class!

Want to get fit but not practice the whole of Raja Yoga? Maybe Westerners should just take up hiking, a gym, swimming, or tennis? :confused:

V

P.S. In writing on this thread, as I don't normally dip into the Yoga forum, it became obvious to me - because I had to go back and edit too - that it's incomplete and confusing to write "yoga" when what is really meant is hatha yoga. If hatha yoga is the topic, then best put the whole term in. Yoga (the whole thing) begins with morality and such, extends to cleanliness and non-violence, and has as its penultimate goal the practice of meditation (one of the eight yoga limbs - the seventh) in the hope of attaining the ultimate goal - the eighth limb of yoga, samadhi. (See Wikipedia link above.)

V

Hi,
Like most "yogis/yoginis", I've practiced yoga in church halls with people of different nationalities, and no doubt different religions. As mentioned, there are eight limbs to yoga, but in basic classes we only do the Physical side I.E postures/asanas, to prepare for meditation later,and with a bit of luck could result in number eight, which is the bliss state.Reading about the eight limbs,not once was religion mentioned.The remainder of the eight limbs are basicly what I was taught in my christian upbringing.
Teaching yoga to children in this country is a great idea,it will no doubt make them into better people.Their religion should not be an issue.
Does this small minded reverend not allow meditation in his church?if not what sort of church does he run?

Kind regards and namaste,
G.J

If someone were not Hindu, they'd skimp on some of the whole or holistic system that's used by authentic teachers. In fact, the teaching comes down through a respected lineage of teachers - you don't learn real hatha yoga from an evening class!

What does being Hindu mean to you, Venetian?

I have studied, and respect, Hinduism. I do not practise nor believe in all of it as it doesn't all fit for me, in the same way that many of the world's religions have bits I like and bits I don't. Yet, I practise Hatha Yoga from the heart, along with some other limbs of yoga as part of that too. Do I live yoga 24/7 no... but it is there at the back of my consciousness. I appreciate that in a perfect world, we could all experience Yoga, and all its forms, for its original purpose.

However, this is not always reasonable nor practical to do and wouldn't it be better for some Western Hatha Yoga students to miss out some of the original purpose of practice than to completely miss the opportunity to gain any of the myriad benefits from practising a weekly class of Hatha Yoga.

Anyway, Patanjali and the Hatha Yoga Pradipika do not agree on what order the path of Yoga should be practised in order to prepare for ultimate freedom. One says do Hatha early in our personal journey, to help prepare, Patanjali says that Hatha should only be done once we have travelled a significant way along the path - mastered the yamas and the niyamas (which I certainly haven't!!). The pradipika leads us to Raja Yoga through hatha pracitce.

Yoga is a spiritual quest. However, along the path of yoga, the aspirant also gains health, happiness, tranquillity and knowledge which are indicators of progress and an encouragement to continue their practice.

I find that Hatha Yoga puts me in a good spiritual place, mostly through humility, to prepare for "higher" Yoga... and it was my first step along the journey. We couldn't deprive the thousands of people who do a weekly Hatha Yoga class from that first step by saying that only Hindus can teach Hatha Yoga. For those born into a non-Hindu society, this may be the only exposure they may get. I agree that some weekly classes miss out on all these points, failing the acknowledge the links to Hinduism, and are simply physical exercise... but so many teachers that I have met are very aware of what an honour it is to teach Hatha Yoga and the small part that they play in a very much larger picture.

Ho hum. The more people who can practice some form of yoga and gain some benefit, the better. And then, if they are ready, hopefully, this will lead to a curiosity about the wider context of yoga.

Anyway, it's still not Anti Christian! Yoga comes from the Sanskrit for "union"... how fitting. (and what an interesting debate!)

P.S. In writing on this thread, as I don't normally dip into the Yoga forum, it became obvious to me - because I had to go back and edit too - that it's incomplete and confusing to write "yoga" when what is really meant is hatha yoga. If hatha yoga is the topic, then best put the whole term in. Yoga (the whole thing) begins with morality and such, extends to cleanliness and non-violence, and has as its penultimate goal the practice of meditation (one of the eight yoga limbs - the seventh) in the hope of attaining the ultimate goal - the eighth limb of yoga, samadhi. (See Wikipedia link above.)

V

Yes and to confuse more, as I understand it, this explanation is incomplete. The 8 limbs (Astanga) you list are the 8 disciplines as presented by Patanjali. Patanjali's 8 limbs are these varied philosophies and methodlogies of Yoga below, clearly represented in his Sutras.

There are 4 main branches of yoga:

Karma Yoga - the yoga of action, the path of selfless service
Bhakti Yoga - the yoga of devotion (many Christians like this path)
Raja Yoga - the yoga of mind control, the scientific approach
Jnana Yoga - the yoga of knowledge, the philosophical approach (which I think we're doing here!!)

Hatha Yoga is one of two sub-paths of Raja Yoga, the other being Kundalini Yoga. The Prana (life force) is mastered first with will through Hatha Yoga and the dormant Kundalini energy is awakened. Then the mind comes under control automatically.

From the 4 main branches, there is also Mantra Yoga, Laya Yoga and some see Hatha at that level in its own right. There are no clear boundaries between these various paths and all draw on the practices and philosophy of the others; effectively all paths have the same goal. They could be seen as different views of the same topic.

Yes and to confuse more, as I understand it, this explanation is incomplete. The 8 limbs (Astanga) you list are the 8 disciplines as presented by Patanjali. Patanjali's 8 limbs are these varied philosophies and methodlogies of Yoga below, clearly represented in his Sutras.

There are 4 main branches of yoga:

Karma Yoga - the yoga of action, the path of selfless service
Bhakti Yoga - the yoga of devotion (many Christians like this path)
Raja Yoga - the yoga of mind control, the scientific approach
Jnana Yoga - the yoga of knowledge, the philosophical approach (which I think we're doing here!!)

Yes, I did know, but was trying not to make the thread too complicated.

Bhakti is certainly important, for example, IMHO. One thing I just learned in writing these posts is that "Kriya Yoga" really means "action yoga" i.e. balancing karma. Yet Yogananda's passed-down system is called Kriya Yoga. I now realise that I'd underestimated how it's valued as a means to "balance karma" without actually getting involved in karmic situations physically.

Er .. there could be a whole disruption ready to take place here on HP. Having a forum on "Yoga" seems to be very confusing, and "Meditation" technically might come under it!

Only kidding, but to Patanjali this might be the case.

(I'd like to reply to the previous post on "What do I mean by Hinduism" a bit later - can't do it now. )

V

In reply to you, AvalonDove, on your post beginning, "What does Hinduism mean to you, Venetian?" ...

On your whole post and things in general my own thinking goes something like this -

To become more detailed on the subject, then, I wouldn't seriously say someone has to be a Hindu in the conventional sense to teach hatha yoga. I know I could learn to teach it as I was recently taught it, yet I'd never quite call myself a Hindu. I don't want to digress, but Hinduism has many shapes and forms, so it's a confusing word anyway to use.

What I did mean is that I've recently experienced what IMHO must be the closest to contacting the true teaching of hatha yoga you are ever likely to get, if I'm not mistaken. And to learn it within this tradition, I can't imagine that you can do without the lineage (back to a Hindu yoga lineage), or do without the terminology. Hatha yoga does of course transcend any religion - it is what it is - but to learn the most authentic forms outside of a Hindu background would be like trying to do a degree in physics at a university in Russia, say. Russia has no monopoly upon physics, but you wouldn't learn anything as you don't speak Russian. The same for the most genuine forms of hatha yoga: without learning it the "Hindu" way, in that terminology and within that cosmological perception of the world, I feel you aren't getting it at all.

I can't honestly put this across in words. It was an experiencial thing. My mere half-week retreat was at [DLMURL] http://www.abhedashram.org/ucyl.html [/DLMURL] - so anyone can look up their lineage and background there. As the brief website says,

"Hatha-Yoga is a science of controlling the body and promoting a sound health of body and mind. Its practice brings unity of mind, senses and body. U.C.Y.L teaches Hatha-Yoga in a traditional way and has systemised the Hatha-Yoga in the light of Vedantic and Yogic principles. U.C.Y.L does not consider nor teach Hatha-Yoga as a therapy or treatment, though it acknowledges its ability not only to prevent but to cure illness."

(To save anyone wasting their time, the center itself is having a quiet year with no more retreats in 2007. There's a possibility that their great Dutch teachers might be doing courses in Holland - I don't know. They seem not to advertise or 'put themselves about' in any way. In fact, people just turned up for the retreat as they guessed it would be happening at a special time of the year - not even invitations, let alone ads (!), were sent out. Money was not involved.)

The thread has got my brain cells ticking over, and it's not a subject I'm an expert in. But I'd suggest then that there are roughly two levels to hatha yoga: the "real" and authentic one; and then if people want to mess around teaching asanas or going to non-Hindu classes then that's going to do no harm is it? But frankly, hatha doesn't seem great to me for health and fitness if done alone. It's got no aerobic aspect really, for example. What's wrong with Western-style calisthanetics (sp?) or anything we do over here? I'm wondering TBH if it's just the 'flavour of the Orient' and the fact that it is called yoga that attracts people, thinking it has something special or exotic about it.

To return to that post of AvalonDove, sure, live and let live. If people enjoy it, why not do it? I think many would be a bit bowled over though by the difference between that and the authentic hatha.

On Hinduism in general, again it has a million types and hues, and I agree that I can't accept all of them. One thing that occur to me is that I'm not a deity-worshipper of any kind, for example. But then that has nothing to do with hatha yoga.

And ... people teach "hatha yoga" in all kinds of ways everywhere it seems. I almost burst out laughing at one ashram in India where the day began with 5 a.m. or 6 a.m. hatha yoga for 75 minutes. One teacher (who was not using English!) taught a class of about eighty people :). Frankly I was glancing from side to side just to copy what people were doing around me, as I didn't understand a word (not his fault). But he got us changing one morning from one asana to another, going through about eight asanas, and the changes were so fast that it became highly aerobic, all about speed, and highly confusing! A bit like - "Crikey, where is my left arm meant to be for just the next two seconds??" We were up and down off the floor at speed, and for all the world it was like being in an army work-out. You'd carry the muscle-pulls and tendon-aches around with you for days afterward!

So that's even in India ...

V

Yoga- A Hindu speaks!

Hi all,

I have now studied all the posts on this thread. I hope you will allow me to address each poster, on an ad hoc basis:

1. (a) Solas Post 1.

Yoga is a spiritual exercise. In Sanskrit Yoga = Union. The Union with the Infinite.

The Infinite, by definition, cannot be limited by human concepts.
Therefore it encompasses the concept of Brahman in Sanatana Dharma, that of the Holy Spirit in Christianity and that of the equivalent among Dolphins, Whales, Monkeys and so on.

(b) post 5. - I agree with the extract, including the second last sentence.

2. (a) AvalonDove post 3:

I find it difficult to accept the term "Hindu religion". I personally prefer the term Sanatana Dharma, as I believe it to be accurate and appropriate.

I would like to stress that I do agree with your following statement:

"it's physical, it's spiritual and it's a physical therapy... but you can take from it what you want - stress relief, relaxation, etc, etc. ... in fact, independence is encouraged. "

You may not be aware of this, but independent thought is not only encouraged but is a necessary requirement in Sanatana Dharma.

(b) Post 9:

I agree with so much of it that it is impractical to cite these. But I will cite the most significant, IMO:

"Yoga is a spiritual quest. However, along the path of yoga, the aspirant also gains health, happiness, tranquillity and knowledge which are indicators of progress and an encouragement to continue their practice....

"For those born into a non-Hindu society, this may be the only exposure they may get. I agree that some weekly classes miss out on all these points, failing the acknowledge the links to Hinduism, and are simply physical exercise... but so many teachers that I have met are very aware of what an honour it is to teach Hatha Yoga and the small part that they play in a very much larger picture.

Although I must deplore "failing to acknowledge the links to Hinduism,"

3. V - We have met and no doubt, will meet again. Greetings!

4. Sunbird: Your use of the term "Yogini" did confuse me for a few microseconds.

I do agree with your statement as follows:

"Teaching yoga to children in this country is a great idea,it will no doubt make them into better people.Their religion should not be an issue."

Thanks for your patience.

Prashna