From the New Statesman: [url]The Happiness Conspiracy[/url]
My point is that, if you are using the words 'negative' and 'destroy' in terms that are not commonly understood/defined, then you are redefining them as to render their terminology meaningless.
So utilising Crowan's dictionary definition, if you refuse to press the detonation button to destroy your house by being negative, then it will not be destroyed, but if you move into a positive way of being, then you can positively press the button and destroy the building. 
So utilising Crowan's dictionary definition, if you refuse to press the detonation button to destroy your house by being negative, then it will not be destroyed, but if you move into a positive way of being, then you can positively press the button and destroy the building.
You are saying you can have a positive mindset whilst destroying something? I do not dispute that...people who feel good about damaging/attacking property are somewhat disturbed. Again, context is everything. Feeling good about destroying a building to make the space available for something better would be positive.
You are saying you can have a positive mindset whilst destroying something? I do not dispute that...people who feel good about damaging/attacking property are somewhat disturbed. Again, context is everything. Feeling good about destroying a building to make the space available for something better would be positive.
This is still interpreting 'positive' as 'good' - something neither Paul nor I are doing.
You are saying you can have a positive mindset whilst destroying something? I do not dispute that...people who feel good about damaging/attacking property are somewhat disturbed. Again, context is everything. Feeling good about destroying a building to make the space available for something better would be positive.
No. I am saying that we will either positively allow ourselves to do something or we will positively block ourselves from doing something, but it is all creative in nature.
The problem we are having is that I am talking outside of making any judgments about 'what is' and you are applying a judgment to the scenario that 'what is' might create in different situations, to see if you think it is right or wrong for you to do it or not.
It is the same with happiness, it does not depend upon us doing the right or wrong thing, it simply depends upon whether we choose to be happy or not happy, both choices will create something in a positive manner for us to experience.
Well, once again Paul, we will have to agree to differ. I cannot suspend judgement like you do. Although I consider myself to be reasonably open minded, I have a strong sense of justice/morals. Presumably you can see a child positively (i.e. gleefully) destroying another child's toy and have no opinion of it?
I don't want to rush in and say, 'That's not what Paul is saying.' He's quite capable of saying that himself ;).
But, from my point of view, your sense of justice/morals are things you have decided matter to you. Many things matter to me (from previous posts, I would say many of the same things). But that only means that we have decided to afford them that importance to us, not that they have that moral stance inherently. (Or that someone else might decide differently.)
One of the things that happens is we tend to describe things (often actions) as 'good', 'bad', 'worse', 'better' etc. These are perfectly valid words if we also voice the parameters that we have decided on - but often we take it for granted that the person we are talking to knows what these parameters are. Or we are unaware that we have these parameters and think that 'any reasonable person must agree with me.'
For example, I might say, 'I'm learning Welsh and I want to get better.' I am aware that this is not a moral judgement. I want to, and intend to, continue learning in order to improve my ability to speak and understand Welsh - and, because it is in context, most people will understand it like that.
But suppose I say, 'The government's austerity measures are a bad thing.' I'm putting a moral judgement in there. It should carry the rider, 'bad in this sense meaning that it makes the country less as I would like it' - and I have decided how I would like it. Austerity makes the country more how others would like it.
Unlike Paul, I am prepared to make a moral judgement. But I am constantly aware that this is a stance that I have decided on in order to facilitate an outcome more aligned to what I have chosen. My decision, my stance, is therefore mine. It is not a universal or 'god-given' (or whatever) stance. I have chosen it.
Yes Crowan. Of course morals are subjective...how can they be otherwise? I have no problem either to declare moral judgements. This is not to say I am not amenable to subjecting my morals to scrutiny and perhaps adapt/modify them in the light of better understanding, i.e. they are not completely fixed.
I know that having judgements is frowned upon by many. However there is a difference between having a judgement (e.g. discernment) and being judgemental.
I know that having judgements is frowned upon by many. However there is a difference between having a judgement (e.g. discernment) and being judgemental.
Hi Amy
I see this as it is all right to have an opinion upon something as that opinion is personal and allows us to evaluate what is and how we wish to respond to it, but if we move from a personal opinion into saying that this is the right thing to do or this is good or bad etc, then we have formed a judgment, now if we try and make others adhere to what we have judged to be the right thing to do etc, then we have then become judgmental.
Now because it is often difficult to perceive things outside of a judgment call (is this the right or wrong thing to do), then when I put up a hypothetical question as to if we can negatively press a button or does it require a positive action to press the button, then the question does not require us to know why we are going to press the button, so that we can make judgement call on if it is right or wrong to press it.
My point has not been about if it is right or wrong to do something, but upon the reality that our consciousness is creative and always works in a positive manner to create something, irrespective of if the effect is judged by some people to be the right thing to do and judged by other people to be the wrong thing to do.
Consciousness will positively create our general state of health and well being in relation to our underlying thought patterns and beliefs, an opinion will have little if any effect upon our general state of health and well being, for they are transient and can change from one aspect of our life experience to another aspect, but judgmental beliefs have the ability to lock us into a way of being and positively create things like depression etc, in place of our natural state of happiness which happens when we are more neutral and open in our thought patterns and beliefs.
Hi Amy
I see this as it is all right to have an opinion upon something as that opinion is personal and allows us to evaluate what is and how we wish to respond to it, but if we move from a personal opinion into saying that this is the right thing to do or this is good or bad etc, then we have formed a judgment, now if we try and make others adhere to what we have judged to be the right thing to do etc, then we have then become judgmental.
Now because it is often difficult to perceive things outside of a judgment call (is this the right or wrong thing to do), then when I put up a hypothetical question as to if we can negatively press a button or does it require a positive action to press the button, then the question does not require us to know why we are going to press the button, so that we can make judgement call on if it is right or wrong to press it.
My point has not been about if it is right or wrong to do something, but upon the reality that our consciousness is creative and always works in a positive manner to create something, irrespective of if the effect is judged by some people to be the right thing to do and judged by other people to be the wrong thing to do.
Consciousness will positively create our general state of health and well being in relation to our underlying thought patterns and beliefs, an opinion will have little if any effect upon our general state of health and well being, for they are transient and can change from one aspect of our life experience to another aspect, but judgmental beliefs have the ability to lock us into a way of being and positively create things like depression etc, in place of our natural state of happiness which happens when we are more neutral and open in our thought patterns and beliefs.
I think we have had this discussion before. The highlighted paragraph suggests that not only is judgement erased but also discernment and this strikes me as a dangerous precedent, i.e. to become amoral.
I think we have had this discussion before. The highlighted paragraph suggests that not only is judgement erased but also discernment and this strikes me as a dangerous precedent, i.e. to become amoral.
Hi Amy
Yet you cannot see that to morally judge self to be not good enough will create low self esteem and depression as our general state of health and well being! I think that most people on this planet understand that we should not go around murdering other people, yet through the utilisation of moral judgments that are reinforced with the message that this is the right thing to do, we have had world wars and there are still a lot of wars in the world, people are dying all of the time because of the application of moral judgments! I wonder what would happen if everyone replaced their moral judgments with personal responsibility?
Hi Amy
Yet you cannot see that to morally judge self to be not good enough will create low self esteem and depression as our general state of health and well being! I think that most people on this planet understand that we should not go around murdering other people, yet through the utilisation of moral judgments that are reinforced with the message that this is the right thing to do, we have had world wars and there are still a lot of wars in the world, people are dying all of the time because of the application of moral judgments! I wonder what would happen if everyone replaced their moral judgments with personal responsibility?
I don't know how you extrapolated that I view self as not good enough although there is always room for improvement. I have high self esteem now...and this has been the case for decades. If you mean judging others by their deeds then I take responsibility for doing that. If there was no redress when someone committed a dubious act, where would we be? Chaos would reign.
Wars are about fostering greed although the superficial arguments used to justify this my be cloaked in moral judgement. Most people now are savvy that US goes after oil and tries to justify war by denigrating who they are attacking.
Taking personal responsibility is an important direction and one that enables personal growth. However, I don't see how this could ever be enforced. People operate at various levels of understanding and awareness, e.g. how would you approach a wife beater on this issue? Many are not in the right 'space' for this to be operable.
I don't know how you extrapolated that I view self as not good enough although there is always room for improvement. I have high self esteem now...and this has been the case for decades. If you mean judging others by their deeds then I take responsibility for doing that. If there was no redress when someone committed a dubious act, where would we be? Chaos would reign.
Wars are about fostering greed although the superficial arguments used to justify this my be cloaked in moral judgement. Most people now are savvy that US goes after oil and tries to justify war by denigrating who they are attacking.
Taking personal responsibility is an important direction and one that enables personal growth. However, I don't see how this could ever be enforced. People operate at various levels of understanding and awareness, e.g. how would you approach a wife beater on this issue? Many are not in the right 'space' for this to be operable.
I was making a general statement about how applying moral judgments creates most of our inner conflicts, personal responsibility is something that people have to choose to embrace in order for it to become a reality. So rather than assessing if something is the right thing to do, or just accepting that if the powers to be say you have to do this or that because it is the right thing to do, people would stop and assess if they are happy to take personal responsibility for what they are contemplating doing, or being told what they must do and then act upon their own personal choice and take responsibility for their own actions. In the scenario that I gave, everyone would be doing the same thing, so people would only do the things that they are happy to take personal responsibility for irrespective of what anyone else thought or did.
ps I am talking about responsible adults here, I do appreciate that children need guidance which might encompass a set of rules to govern their behavior whilst they learn to take personal responsibility for their own thoughts and actions.
I don't generally read the Express, but the headline, seen in the local Co-op, aroused my curiosity, so I looked it up online: [url]Keep Positive to Live Longer.[/url]
Two points occur to me in this article - first, (and I realise, now that I look back, that this has happened on this thread also) the terms 'positive thinking' and 'optimism' (and, of course, 'negative thinking' and 'pessimism') are being used interchangeably, as if they meant the same. They do not. I assume the language is the Express's rather than the researchers', but it renders the article useless.
The second point is that, as almost always, the two extremes are seen as the only alternatives. Neutrality is not considered.
Hi Crowan
It is partly a language problem, the article is correct in the way that stress has a direct effect upon our general state of health and well being, but stress is the effect of an inner conflict that we create within our own consciousness, by addressing and healing the inner conflicts we automatically go into neutral and are free to choose.
It seems to me, Paul, that inner conflict is increased by articles that suggest that one extreme is 'better' than another.
Also, an article (and/or research) that is confused about its terminology is surely going to confuse (at least some) people trying to make sense of it. Altogether, it is a very 'bitty' article - a bit about optimism/pessimism, a bit about 'positive/negative thinking', a bit about stress - all leading to some correlations that are labelled 'proof'.
It seems to me, Paul, that inner conflict is increased by articles that suggest that one extreme is 'better' than another.
Also, an article (and/or research) that is confused about its terminology is surely going to confuse (at least some) people trying to make sense of it. Altogether, it is a very 'bitty' article - a bit about optimism/pessimism, a bit about 'positive/negative thinking', a bit about stress - all leading to some correlations that are labelled 'proof'.
That is correct Crowan, given a certain set of circumstances, we can make most things appear to be viable or nonviable, it is only when we try and see if something fits the bigger picture that we start to get a more complete understanding of what is.
It is a modern day problem, that highlighting a perceived problem that does not effect everyone, will as you say create a conflict in the people who do not perceive themselves adhering to the advice, a fear of what might happen is the fastest way to make it a reality.
They keep harping on about circumstantial evidence and conveniently forget that some people defy what they say should happen upon the criteria they are using. 
Some advantages to having a positive mindset...i.e. points 2, 4 and 8 
These points dovetail nicely into one of the universal laws, i.e. the law of attraction.
I read this today....it may give some insight into an optimist's frame of mind (for those that cannot relate/"see" this clearly). The replies are quite spiritual.
Again, the confusion between optimism and 'positive thinking'. And again, no hint that there is an alternative to either optimism or pessimism.
It's not that I don't understand optimism - I just don't think it is as wonderful as articles often suggest.
Again, the confusion between optimism and 'positive thinking'. And again, no hint that there is an alternative to either optimism or pessimism.
It's not that I don't understand optimism - I just don't think it is as wonderful as articles often suggest.
Sounds like a cynical view...have you ventured to try getting into this mindset at all I wonder? I guess it could require a leap of faith. I have never looked back - it has been my saving grace and transformed my life.
Your interpretation is that I have a cynical view. I suspect that any change of fundamental beliefs (such as yours, also) would require a leap of faith. Why is it easier to take the view that something (cynicism, fear, lack of faith?) holds me back, than to acknowledge that I might also have followed a deep spiritual path that has led me to this place?
Do you regard 'optimism' and 'positive thinking' as the same thing? (Things you have said previously suggest this.)
Have you ventured into understanding my 'mindset'?
Your interpretation is that I have a cynical view. I suspect that any change of fundamental beliefs (such as yours, also) would require a leap of faith. Why is it easier to take the view that something (cynicism, fear, lack of faith?) holds me back, than to acknowledge that I might also have followed a deep spiritual path that has led me to this place?
Do you regard 'optimism' and 'positive thinking' as the same thing? (Things you have said previously suggest this.)
Have you ventured into understanding my 'mindset'?
Yes of course it is MY interpretation that you sound cynical....just as your views here are just YOUR interpretation. That is a given, isn't it??? o_O You doubt that optimism can be that wonderful and, presumably, my citing my own situation as a good example of this does nothing to help you review your position. Oh well...never mind.
Interestingly enough....at the risk of repeating what I have said on this forum so often now...I had a fatalistic/doomed mindset (some 30 years ago). That's precisely why I know it can take a leap of faith to embrace a positive outlook...because that's what it took for me. I speak from direct experience.
Being optimistic is an outcome to positive thinking. I doubt that there can be a hard separation between them since they dovetail together. Are you saying they are different? If so, how?
As to understanding your mindset....I can only go by what you reveal here, i.e. you have not laid your cards on the table in saying precisely where you are coming from, but it is becoming evident that you seem adverse to an upbeat nature. It would appear that you started this thread to criticise this attitude. You have indicated that you favour neutrality.
Being optimistic is an outcome to positive thinking. I doubt that there can be a hard separation between them since they dovetail together. Are you saying they are different? If so, how?.
While 'positive thinking' might include optimism, they are not the same. Optimism refers to the future - 'it will turn out well.' Positive thinking usually is a past/present way of thinking - 'this is for the best'. (Yes, positive thinking can refer to the future as well, but optimism always does.
noun:
hopefulness and confidence about the future or the success of something:
"the talks had been amicable and there were grounds for optimism"
synonyms: hopefulness
People who are always optimistic therefore have more likelihood of disappointment in their lives. (And equally - although I am not suggesting pessimism as an alternative - it could be argued that pessimists have more pleasant surprises in their lives.)
I'm not adverse to an 'upbeat nature'. I am adverse to the attitude (as was the original article) that optimism is how everyone should be.
You say I have not laid my cards on the table - I don't think, until this last post, that you had asked me to. Okay, cards on the table: I'm not a Buddhist but [url]this article [/url]pretty much lays out the way I think. It is also in agreement with what my spirit teachers have been teaching me over the last 30 years or so.,
While 'positive thinking' might include optimism, they are not the same. Optimism refers to the future - 'it will turn out well.' Positive thinking usually is a past/present way of thinking - 'this is for the best'. (Yes, positive thinking can refer to the future as well, but optimism always does.
noun:
hopefulness and confidence about the future or the success of something:
"the talks had been amicable and there were grounds for optimism"
synonyms: hopefulnessPeople who are always optimistic therefore have more likelihood of disappointment in their lives. (And equally - although I am not suggesting pessimism as an alternative - it could be argued that pessimists have more pleasant surprises in their lives.)
I'm not adverse to an 'upbeat nature'. I am adverse to the attitude (as was the original article) that optimism is how everyone should be.
You say I have not laid my cards on the table - I don't think, until this last post, that you had asked me to. Okay, cards on the table: I'm not a Buddhist but [url]this article [/url]pretty much lays out the way I think. It is also in agreement with what my spirit teachers have been teaching me over the last 30 years or so.,
I didn't realise that the original article was trying to enforce that view on others...I thought it was rather a case of explaining and winning people over into how much better life could be, i.e. altruistic rather than manipulative.
Yes I see what you mean re. the difference between optimism and positive thinking. I am a realist so it's not that I deny how life is but rather that I look to find the positives rather than wallow in the negatives. For instance, my mum is currently very close to death now and, rather than be reeling in the pain of this (which I am sure will happen anyway at some point) I try and look for the positives since she is suffering a lot and it would be a blessed release for her.
Thank you for the link explaining more about your mindset. Interesting. It would seem that we share a common basis but have taken different paths from this. I share some of the beliefs in that article, e.g. non attachment and once followed Mahayana Buddhism. We choose what works for us both but I take exception to criticising something that works for others. I realise that you see it as enforcement (was it)? I would be against that also. I also can see that being too optimistic, i.e.out of touch with what is possible, is doomed. That said, I feel blessed to have an ingrained positive mindset...it helps me keep any possibility of depression in check (which I suffered from very severely before this).
My thoughts are with you and your mother. I had the same, six years ago. I understand what you say about it being an ending of suffering - my mother was ready and wanting to die. I still miss her.