Wondering where it all went wrong

I understand what you are saying, and why you are concerned. I have been listening for the last few weeks to a series on Radio 7 - called "[url]The Invention of Childhood[/url]" which charts the history of British childhood over the last 1000 years. When put in the context of history I think what we are seeing is a continued change. Our lives are not the same as our parents, and our children's lives are not the same as ours. Some things improve, somethings get worse, some things just change and are neither better/worse.

Ava x

I think Ava is right where each generation subtley changes.

However, the examples which Becky has highlighted all shout "lack of responsibilty" at me.

My grandma remembers her mother crying when the welfare system was set up as it meant that the workhouse was not such a threat to the elderly and those who were less fortunate but to some extent it has taken away people's accountability and responsibilities towards each other.

Each generation becomes more "liberal" and understanding without neccessarily teaching the results and responsibilities of what occurs.

I suspect that things will go the full circle where eventually people will start to say "no" and mean "no".

Perhaps we are on the brink of radical change with the recent hints from the government that we are all going to have be a lot more responsible and learn to live within our means.

Hello Ava and Gaiaholistix and thank you for replying, I like to think this new government is going to do something to address this problem but I'm not holding my breath, they too are guilty of contributing to this mess in my opinion there are dozens of examples of this but the one that springs to mind for me is when they always do the rounds of Mother and Baby care groups or whatever you call them on the run up to the election pretending to care about working Mother's I feel this just sends out another signal that says they are responsible for us so we don't have to take responsibility for ourselves it's always been beyond me what it has to do with the government what a woman does or does not do for child care while she works her child her problem nothing to do with the government but I am going off topic with my own thread and I am going to get shouted at in a minute lol.

Love

Rebecca x

mmmm an interesting debate although not an easy one to respond to. I think responsibility is a definite issue. It always makes me laugh about how people always want compensation from the government regarding a whole range of issues most of which have nothing to do with the government.

More widely however I think that the breakdown of the nuclear family we are seeing is highlighting that having the nuclear family as the basis for society is not sustainable. It is (the promotion of the nuclear family) I believe (and I don't claim to know this as I haven't done sufficient research) a manifestation of economic and religious influences in society. The focus on the nuclear family has I believe contributed to the decline of wider forms of community which at one time served to support couples in marriages, child raising etc. The fact that a family has to rely on a very small foundation wtihout wider community support puts massive pressure on the adults within that unit.

I believe that the nucelar family is a far from ideal unit for society to be based on. For example in more tribal societies I have read about things such as child rearing being a community concern, not just down to the particular parents of each child. Additionally younger people were encouraged to have children while they were physically most able to do so and the elders in the community then raised those children enabling the young adults to return to work and be productive.

I guess what I am saying is perhaps there is another way and maybe we had forgotten that and although the examples given are very hard to read about if people felt more included and supported by wider society i think these problems would minimise......

Food for thought ......

It amazes me that a lot of sex-education focuses mostly on birth-control and unwanted pregnancy. I remember the big AIDS campaign in this country in the 80s when I was about 10 or 11 and it was enough to scare the wotsits out of me. I carried this fear of potentially fatal STDs into adulthood and have ALWAYS been a very careful person if you see what I mean! I have had a couple of full sexual health checks as an adult just to make sure, the last one was mainly because I wanted both me and my partner to be checked out before we started trying for a family. We were both 100% clear.

We have a dual problem going on. On the one hand we have a very sexualised society. Over the past few years more and more pornographic tv programmes are being broadcast on national free tv late at night and with kids having tvs in their rooms, how easy is it to stop them from watching? The teen magazines also glamorise sex - in movies, even in the romantic sense rather than erotic sense, the man and woman will 'get it together'.

I clearly remember what it was like being a teenager. I remember feeling like I was being 'left on the shelf' at 14 because I didn't have a boyfriend. Those urges are there from a fairly young age and they are very strong. What's lacking more and more, however, is the awareness that unprotected sex is a game of Russian roulette. On one end of the scale you'll have some unpleasant symptoms, on the other, infertility and even death. That's the message we need to get across to young people more than getting pregnant, then the unwanted pregnancy would be taken care of as well.

I am literally amazed at the risks young people are taking and the statistics showing a sharp rise in STDs shows the consequences.

Teenage girls in particular are being taught that being a sexy woman is of high value. It started in quite a harmless way with The Spice Girls, now we have the likes of the Pussycat Dolls who, quite frankly, make me want to vomit. Many see Jordan and Jodie Marsh as a role models - have a boob job, get your kit off, make loads of money without actually really having any talent or offering the world anything of value...

I'm also going off topic now, rant, rant ,rant...

I've hesitated to post here because I know I will come across as a stereotypically grumpy old woman but I have to say that I fully endorse Becky's POV. Children are having babies now without so much as a minute's thought. And these children are being brought up in such a haphazard loveless fashion that it makes my blood run cold. OK, so that's a generalisation but I see teenage mums all the time who seem to have no maternal feelings at all. I can only assume that becoming pregnant was just something that happened to them without much thought being applied to the process. Indeed, having a baby is such a common event among certain teenage groups, that NOT having one means that there's something wrong with you. There seems to be a substratum of society where kids operate on a kind of lowest common denominator basis: education is anathema to them, working not an option as all they're fit for is the check out at the supermarket, so - hey, why not get pregnant and let the state provide accommodation and attention. (Perhaps it's the attention that's the attraction.) Babies are cute - but the reality turns out to be a smelly, screaming bundle - and these children with children are simply not able to put their own needs last. (I was 28 when I had my son and I still remember the shock of realising that from now on his needs were always going to be paramount and mine were always going to come second. How to come to terms with that when you're 15?) Then baby turns into toddler and we all know what the terrible twos are like and the amount of time and attention a growing child needs. Dare I say too that there seems to be an intelligence factor at work here too? (Or rather a lack of intelligence. Again, I'm sorry but a lot of these kids just seem, well, thick.) I know that this doesn't apply to all British teenagers by any means but I meet and work with kids from all over the world and I'm sorry to say that without exception foreign kids are brighter, happier, more engaged, more intelligent and better educated than ours. There has been a dumbing down in the UK over the past two or three decades which frankly bodes ill for the future of this country. All, of course, IMVVHO.
xxx

Hi

This really is an interesting thread - thanks, Becky, for starting it.

I never knew grandparents or great grandparents - they were all dead before my parents married. However, a sort of complicated cousin recently got in touch, having been brought up to think he didn't have any relatives on his father's side. As it turned out, there are rather a lot of us, but his father had been cast off for getting a girl pregnant - although he did actually marry her, which some of them didn't in those days.

I think none of us would like to return to those days, where the stigma of unmarried pregnancy was a social disaster ...

However, if you actually ask teenagers what they want in the way of sex education, they practically with one voice reply that they want help with relationships. Its all very well giving these young people education about the mechanics and dangers of early sexual activity - which makes it more exciting and less emtionally charged - but if we are not educating them about positive relationships, hormonal drivers and the emotional consequences of early sexual activity, what do we, as a society, expect?

Just my 2p

Fx

However, if you actually ask teenagers what they want in the way of sex education, they practically with one voice reply that they want help with relationships. Its all very well giving these young people education about the mechanics and dangers of early sexual activity - which makes it more exciting and less emtionally charged - but if we are not educating them about positive relationships, hormonal drivers and the emotional consequences of early sexual activity, what do we, as a society, expect?

I agree with all this but as far as I can tell teenagers put so little store on 'education' per se nowadays that just 'teaching' them will make no difference. What I think might make a difference would be something I once saw on Oprah (long time ago!) when she had teenagers take care of an extremely realistic baby doll which was programmed to need feeding, changing, playing with etc just as a real baby would. One thing I do believe is a problem is the fact that a fair proportion of these kids come from fairly dysfunctional families themselves and thus have no idea of what a good parent child relationship is.

Thank you Tigerlily, Sunbeam, Fiona and Sunanda for replying. I think Sunanda has hit the nail on the head when she says there are no positive parenting role models for this kids to learn from to begin with, there must be a zillion examples but this is a typical one, one of the young ladies my Dad fosters has regular contact with her Mother this mother has 6 other children all in care except the two youngest she recently met a chap online at the other end of the country, never clapped eyes on him and went to live with him dumping the second youngest in care and the youngest on my Dad's doorstep!
This all boils down to emotionall maturity or lack of in this instance, I think all the sex education in the world will not take away the need these young girls have for a family unit and security of their own, I often speak to the two who live with my Dad and when I read between the lines it is obvious that what they are seeking is love and some security and my heart bleeds for them.
Fiona I agree with you I would hate to see a return to the days when single mother's are ostrasized (spell?) by their families and society this is not the way forward.
Sunbeam I understand the points you are making and agree it is my understanding that when I was a baby 41 years ago I was taken care of be extended family quite often and that we lived in a very community orientated environment but alas we no longer do and that is sad.
I recall reading about a project that works in America to address this problem they brought in a woman Barbara someone and she headed this government funded organisation that taught parenting classes where people were forced to attend or lose welfare money, it is my belief that the issue of what does and doesn't constitute emotional maturity was a huge part of this and it was a big success, as far as I am aware it still exists, maybe that's the way forward, it doesn't thrill me to live in a society which forces anybody to do anything but I can't see a ny alternatives right now the care system is bursting at the seams with these children and apparently a massive percentage of them are pregnant.

Love

Rebecca x

It's unfortunate, isn't it, guys, that most of the obvious immediate solutions to the problem are pretty much fascist - along the lines of no benefits or housing for unmarried underage and/or pregnant teenagers; automatic removal of babies from same into care; forcible contraception. No doubt you can come up with some others.

We have to start somewhere. School is a place to start. Teachers these days are very much better trained and far more engaged with their students. They're far better able to promote discussion and thought now, but just aren't allowed to. Current guidelines on sex ed are geared to putting young people off having sex, when in fact it would be a far better approach to accept that they will and help them to their own understanding of the implications.

Its sad that there are so many with so little understanding or respect for themselves. But I don't think it's new.

Fx

Hi Fiona, I have to disagree hun, firstly I don't think it's the place of teachers to have any part in the actual raising of children, however I do agree that sex ed is geared towards putting kids off sex which is rediculous, I think the issue of sex itself is one we do have to take responsibility for as a society it is hush hush and with younger children they are told it is 'rude' to even mention it, in Holland as one example of many it's not swept under the carpet and it's a proven fact that children and teenagers talk about it with their parents and elders in a much more open and honest fashion maybe that's why Holland has one of the lowest teenage pregnancy rates in the world?
Secondly I have to disagree when you say you don't think it's new, this new rate of children going into care and teenage pregnancies is new and unprecedented that was what I was getting at when I started the thread no so much underage pregnancies and irresponsibility more the actual volume, 14 pages of ads in Thursday's Manchester Evening News for foster homes some offering upto £1000 per week per child, I watched a TV programme on Chanel 4 last year about bed & breakfast accomodation bursting with 16-18 year old care leavers it was shocking.

Love

Rebecca x

It certainly looks that way, doesn't it. But do you remember how many children's homes there *used* to be as compared to now? Hasn't Bernado's closed up their homes completely ... and NCH are down to a very few. I think in the old days the authorities used to take babies away ... and of course there was no abortion then, so there were many more of them. Added to the secrecy of the girls who got "into trouble", so perhaps there were fewer records kept.

I remember as a child seeing ads on the tv for foster carers, too.

And remember the Magdelen Laundries in Ireland (shudder).

As a society, we deal with things differently now - there's no stigma and parents (some parents) positively encourage their offspring to start a family. As an example, I was working in an office up in Glasgow with an 18 year old girl who was living with her boyfriend under his parent's roof (well, his mum's roof, anyway). His family were all gung ho for her to get pregnant. And she was at least in a stable relationship.

So I think perhaps it's just more obvious now than it used to be.

And you're right about Holland - the Dutch do seem to have managed to turn it around. Where did they start? In schools

Fx

Hi Fiona,

I don't know about it starting in schools, I know many Dutch people personally and I know how blase in general they are about the subject of sex, even if schools did start it I can't go there, I despise schools, I campaign for democratic education and it's something I am so passionate about I would gladly be a martyr to it lol.
Yes you are right in what you say things were covered up more so it probably has been going on for eons but Barnardo's may have closed down many of their homes but there are still plenty of them around, run by councils and given daft names so the words 'children's homes' are not so in our faces.
Thank you for your replies.

Love

Rebecca xx