I agree with Rog as well. He has made some valid points! And in many ways I could see this happen. I've spoken to several people earlier this summer about the youth and a underlining angry brewing. Some of which is here in the sleepy Peoples Republic of Cornwall, let alone in the big cities. Here is an article is quite damning about the Britain of today: [url]Generation F*cked | Adbusters Culturejammer Headquarters[/url]
Even though I don't condone the rioting and violent, what message is being sent the young people today, that material values is so important. That it's OK to march into a country and take it's raw resources for us greedy westerners. That in the Blair-Brown days it was this message of spend, spend, spend and continual talk of (fake)aspirition, then the Tories (Conservatives/LibDems) come in with their "slash and burn" tactics. [url]The The-"The Beat(en) Generation" (hq) - YouTube[/url]
Maybe in the long term the rioting may produce something positive. It has caused people to question their values and look at their communities. On the negative side it may mean another step towards a police state.
One thing for certain that David Cameron's Big Society has bitten back right on his arse!! 😀
RP
totally agree with you, our children are a product of how values have changed in the last few years, we need to look backwards to put things right.
Maybe in the long term the rioting may produce something positive. It has caused people to question their values and look at their communities. On the negative side it may mean another step towards a police state.
Not sure how the families of the 5 murdered people would respond to this or the people left homeless, businesses destroyed etc etc.
I strongly believes that parents ultimately bear the responsibility for their children in teaching them right from wrong.
Hi Aspire
I absolutely condemn the rioting and violent, and do feel sorry for all those that were hurt by it. I'm all for the police to go in heavy handed and protect the public and businesses. Yes, they do need to be prosecuted for their crimes.
But at the same time lessons have to be learnt by this situation. Things are not right with our society. We have become a decadent, fat, arrogant, lazy, throw away society. (There is many in the world that would love to have an education, clean water, and a full belly.) There is a lack of philosophical and moral fibre, not just with parenting, but the media, the government and big business continuely bombarding us with utter B_S_. We all need to look very deep inside of ourselves and ask what have we've done to develop such violence and hate. I do in my humble opinion believe that we all have to look deeply and not be a reactionary, as we are society and society is us.
I've just been speaking to an aunt of mine who lives in the Lambeth area on the "dog n bone". She's very worried about the way society is becoming with children who shout rather than discuss, parents that helped their children steal in the riots, generations of people lacking a work ethic, education system that pumps out diplomates/graduates with no jobs to go to. Whether we like it or not, many people are out there with a big chip of their shoulders.
Best Wishes
RP
PS Just an added extra bit. Something is going around Facebook at the moment:
If the young are not initiated into the village,
they will burn it down just to feel its warmth
[african proverb]
And that is not just for Africans, that is for all of humanity! (RP's added comment)
[COLOR="Blue"]Conspiritualist Is that really the answer?
To beat children during school years and point fingers at the single mothers?
Do you think that will ‘cure’ it?We are not in the world of Mad Max, or in total anarchy.
I got up this morning and went to work, I wasn't mugged or robbed on the way to work. I had a day's trading, shared jokes with a few clients and shared some cuppas. Had a lovely stroll down the High Street at lunch time. One shop was celebrating its 100th birthday and were giving passers by a glass of bubbly and some birthday cake.
Yes [COLOR="Blue"]Conspiritualist I wholeheartedly believe this to be the case, but please don’t make it sound so absurd with the comment ‘beating little children’ I am not advocating this and it really is such a naive statement to make. This does go back 20 or so years, precisely after the cane was abolished. I have witnessed first hand the serious decline in classroom behaviour, seriously wicked kids who would think nothing of kicking your dear old granny.
Yes I agree with what is said about all the unrest with relation to all the ‘fat cats’ in society, politics etc., BUT, do you honestly think any of this has even crossed the minds of many of the little brats causing recent terror. They went out there hell-bent on excitement, fueled by the knowledge that no-one can ‘touch them’.
I endorse what I say, stopping punishment in schools, breakdown of the family unit etc., may all sound too simplistic but it is that simple fact that here we are 20/30 years on to what is without a doubt rapidly spreading to Mad Max lifestyle for many.
Myarka, I am pleased you felt at one with things in your neighbourhood, I do to, but aren’t we the lucky ones when there are hundreds of others out there terrified out of their wits, when will it be our turn I wonder? What will it feel like to go to bed and suddenly find your home in flames or hear someone smashing your windows in, what will it feel like to look in to the eyes of an eleven year old kid before he/she bashes your head in with a brick. Will there be empathy or understanding for them then?
At school just as now it was often only the ‘fear’ of reprimand/punishment that kept order. A quote I read recently about finally getting tough also endorses this...Many of those who have brought terror and misery to the streets will never be caught or prosecuted but at least some may be deterred from copycat crimes knowing the water cannon and the plastic bullet are primed and ready for use.
Just in case anyone thinks my statement as about looking at positive of this situation was a bit flippant, here is an article that says very much what I was thinking: [url]Heartwarming stories from the UK riots - Yahoo![/url]
RP
I think maybe we have got a bit complacent about black gangs.
I must before this my attitude to them was a bit like going back to the days of the Krays, `they only kill their own` so no problem.
However, I and evidently others, never thought this sort of thing would happen and now the gangs instead of being at loggerheads with each other, they joined forces to riot.
Also getting back to the killing of each other, this seemed to be happening on a pretty regular basis. However, this was aparently quite acceptable but the police shoot dead one gangster and the whole place is in an uproar.
There may be gang warfare out there and the riots initially triggered by the incident in Tottenham, but how come it spread so fast, not just across London, but all over England? Look how many white people were involved. Regardless of race, look at the profile of some of the rioters: the teaching assistant that was also a mentor to the kids; the Olympic athlete; the army recruits; the graphic designer; the 32 year old postman; and a millionaire's daughter to name but a few.
[url]London riots: Millionaire's daughter accused of looting could face university action - mirror.co.uk[/url]
Conspiritualist Is that really the answer?
To beat children during school years and point fingers at the single mothers?
Do you think that will ‘cure’ it?Yes Conspiritualist I wholeheartedly believe this to be the case, but please don’t make it sound so absurd with the comment ‘beating little children’ I am not advocating this and it really is such a naive statement to make.
If you’re gonna quote me, then at least have the courtesy of not slipping your own words in (I never said little).
However, what you said (and have re-confirmed above) is that you did say that...
Therefore if it seems absurd to you, then its actually 'you' that you find “absurd”... notwithstanding that actually proposing that reinstating such a ‘simple’ and draconian solution will somehow cure the problem ... just has to be the very height of naivety itself.:o
To clarify, the now redundant “punishment in schools” as suggested by you, can only mean what was then considered to be the lawful beating of children (sometimes with a stick) whilst at School administrated by teachers at their discretion – & I should know, I was beaten often with one by the headmaster for having the audacity to always fight back with some venom when being attacked for being a “filthy paki” in 70’s London; so despite all my ‘punishment in schools’, I’ll bet you still find me ill-behaved & quite disrespectful.;)
I think maybe we have got a bit complacent about black gangs. I must before this my attitude to them was a bit like going back to the days of the Krays, `they only kill their own` so no problem.
However, I and evidently others, never thought this sort of thing would happen and now the gangs instead of being at loggerheads with each other, they joined forces to riot.
Also getting back to the killing of each other, this seemed to be happening on a pretty regular basis. However, this was aparently quite acceptable
but the police shoot dead one gangster and the whole place is in an uproar.
When I read your post, ...this (I've made certain words bold within your text and therefore it's not really an accurate quote) is what I saw ...So am I very wrong, or is this really what you meant?
Either way though, just what “gangster” are you talking about, as far I know he never served any time, had no convictions, therefore was not even a criminal let alone a “gangster”!:(
The man has small children, personally I feel you should perhaps have a little more respect for them and their now 'single parent' mother.
:grouphug:
.
Sorry I slipped in the word 'little' doesn't make a jot of difference though!
The man has small children, personally I feel you should perhaps have a little more respect for them and their now 'single parent' mother.
:grouphug:
Yes I am not known for my respect.
🙂
Now that things have calmed down a little since a week ago, maybe it's time to see everything in a bit of perspective. Yes, the events of last week were shocking, and no, we don't want to see them again, but this is not the end of the world as we know it. Life goes on.
My daughter has just drawn Melanie Phillips' Daily Mail column to my attention - I'm afraid it is so laughably ridiculous (not a new thing for her, of course) that I'm not going to include a link here. If you really want to read it, you'll have to find it for yourself!
One of the points she seems to be making is that it's all Tony Blair's fault for getting rid of two-parent families. We are now getting some daft theories about how and why society has broken down. Which is odd, really, as we are probably now - on the whole - more "civilised" than we have ever been.
Let's not forget that there have always, over the decades and the centuries, been sporadic outbreaks of civil disorder. There have always been anti-social elements in society (even during the all-pull-through-together days of the Second World War, looting was a major problem). Young people have always sought excitement where they can find it. And we're really, really not on the verge of total breakdown.
Think that's all I'm going to say, really.
Hi SS
Ol' Melanie Phillips is an awful journalist. I'm not sure if she does it delibrately to up the circulation figures for the Daily Rant, or if she really believes some of the rubbish she splews out. Blair blamed the previous government to his, and the government now will blame Labour and so it all goes round.
I do remember early in Blair's PMing, that he proposed that single young mothers were going to be all stuck together in designated housing. But it was hot air thank goodness. But it shows that there was problems then.
Going back to the blame culture, my parents split up when I was young, so therefore in a single parent family. I didn't become a criminal or a rioter, or fat uneducated slop. Of course it would be nice for chidren to be brought up in a stable mummy and daddy family. But that isn't real life. Sometimes I do wonder if people hark back to a time that never really existed.
Best Wishes
RP
I suppose if any good can come out a bad situation, I am guessing (hopefully) the government/police will get itself together and maybe think of how they are going to handle it better another time.
If only they had come down hard on the original demonstration in Tottenham and scared the life out of the criminals I doubt it would have gone any further.
All this chit chat about them being deprived in my eyes is a load of rubbish. The were opportunists out to get what they could without paying for it.
As others have pointed out they were a mixed bunch ranging from young kids to thirty year olds with jobs.
Of course it would be nice for chidren to be brought up in a stable mummy and daddy family. But that isn't real life. Sometimes I do wonder if people hark back to a time that never really existed.
Exactly! Everyone is trying to come up with a simplistic explanation (it's the single parents/it's Twitter andf Facebook/it's the 24-hour media coverage/it's the government cuts/it's all the last government's fault, or the one before that, or the one before that), but of course it's a combination of many factors that all came together. For most, it was just an excuse for some mayhem in the (often mistaken) belief that no one would get caught.
And you're right about the mythical golden age, as I hinted above. There's an excellent letter in the Telegraph today:
SIR Daniel Johnson (Comment, August 12) contends that Victorian London was "a more law-abiding place than today", citing a huge demonstration in Hyde Park in 1866 when the only casualties were the railings.
It was a different story 20 years later when another mob took possession of Hyde Park, after rampaging through the streets from Trafalgar Square. The American journalist G W Smalley telegraphed details to an amazed New York on February 9, 1886. "As they went, they smashed windows, broke open and plundered shops and restored to themselves a portion of their rights in the shape of watches worn by such capitalists as happened to come their way.
"Once in Hyde Park they attacked carriages, broke them in pieces, beat the liveried menials, insulted ladies who were driving, and stripped men." They marched to Oxford Street "laden with plunder". The police failed to intervene, so for three days the West End was at the mercy of the mob.
Lord Lexden
London SW1
Sound familiar?