I reckon what they are referring to as "British values" are necessarily human or rather humane values - politeness, tolerance, soft spoken, genteel, sense of respect, sense of duty, fairness, honesty, broad minded ness list is very broad but generally summed as congenial and pleasant on the eye as far as appearances, spoken word, manners and behaviour are concerned.
A good list Jnani, but it needs adding to and Mrs S was getting there. I think the point that Gove is trying to make is where our values differ from an Islamist perspective and surely that is in respect, tolerance and equality. We have a huge amount of tolerance - of all races, peoples, politics, religions (or none). Women are afforded equal status by law - not so in many Muslim or Asian societies. We have freedom of speech too - not so in many other societies.
I remember a South African friend coming over here during the Apartheit years and being simply amazed at how people on Question Time could say what they liked about the government, "We'd be locked up if we dared to criticise like that".
I know people grumble, but compared to many other countries, we have enourmous freedom - and I'm grateful for it! I know things could be better in so many ways, but why do people flock here?
Love and peace,
Judy
A good list Jnani, but it needs adding to and Mrs S was getting there. I think the point that Gove is trying to make is where our values differ from an Islamist perspective and surely that is in respect, tolerance and equality. We have a huge amount of tolerance - of all races, peoples, politics, religions (or none). Women are afforded equal status by law - not so in many Muslim or Asian societies. We have freedom of speech too - not so in many other societies.
I remember a South African friend coming over here during the Apartheit years and being simply amazed at how people on Question Time could say what they liked about the government, "We'd be locked up if we dared to criticise like that".
I know people grumble, but compared to many other countries, we have enourmous freedom - and I'm grateful for it! I know things could be better in so many ways, but why do people flock here?
Love and peace,
Judy
If Gove wants something taught he has only to specify - after all, the Minister for Education has been able to personally dictate what is taught since the Baker days. "British Values" is meaningless.
I think if you compared us to other European countries you might find just how quickly our "enormous freedom" is being eroded - don't rest on laurels!
By the way, Muslims and many African peoples had far greater freedom for everyone - women, homosexuals, people of different religions - until Christians forced their ideas on them.
Well said Judy
I disagree with the comment that there is no such a thing as British values. For there is such a thing.
Every culture, sub culture, country has values they admire, live up to or at least aspire to.
Coming from Gove, we may smell a rat, because of general distrust of his profession! Now it may or may not be a sound bite as far as he is concerned. He first of all should specify what those ideals/ values are, so that we know he knows what he is talking about!
The collective consciousness of a group. Here in Britain, there is a plethora of qualities which even British overlook because it is subjective. There is politeness, sense of duty, fairness, tolerance, freedom of thought, sense of humour an ability to play the fool, laugh at themselves, creativity.
Humans talk of "our values" when they are perceived to be in danger, getting lost, or are under attack from another group. There is no need to be cynical, no need to be defensive about it. Some of the Brtish values are priceless. They must be nurtured and passed down to progeny.
It is not about perfection, it is about how things have been here.
I love Blighty and India in equal measures. Both are unique in how they contribute to the world.
Have been a few places, there is nothing like Blighty. Always feel a sense of relief and joy on seeing the Dover cliffs! feel tremendous love for dear old Blighty and very happy to call this country my home.
I especially admire the laid back, non interfering attitude, great sense of humour, do love eccentricity, freedom.
Several German and Austrian acquaintances who have made UK their home echo the same and muse how different things are back home..
Time to love this land mass. She embraces unconditionally, run rather shoddily compared to how it could have been. But that is how things are in this world.
Not a bad bunch.
The society. Is in a state of metamorphosis. It is a smouldering pot. A new dish is being cooked. We can just make sure that what we contribute to it is not poisonous.
Instilling those values in schools is another matter altogether. The society as a whole is shifting. It is bound to find balance, a sense of direction, it's lost spirit, one way or the other.
Doubt if politicians' rhetoric can do it though!
Lovely post Jnani - thanks.
Funny, some one on another website sent me a PM the other day which started off: "Judy: I'm not sure of your political philosophy, but being british I'm going to guess you are a bit more liberal than a lot of americans." - so that's one perception of us from others.
Glad you mentioned our sense of humour - that is noticed all over the world. and I totally agree with this Ruby:
I love Blighty and India in equal measures. Both are unique in how they contribute to the world.
Yay! 🙂
Love and peace,
Judy
Coming from Gove, we may smell a rat, because of general distrust of his profession! Now it may or may not be a sound bite as far as he is concerned. He first of all should specify what those ideals/ values are, so that we know he knows what he is talking about!
The collective consciousness of a group. Here in Britain, there is a plethora of qualities which even British overlook because it is subjective. There is politeness, sense of duty, fairness, tolerance, freedom of thought, sense of humour an ability to play the fool, laugh at themselves, creativity.
Of course there's a smelly rat. Isn't it somewhat convenient that, so shortly after the Con-dems have been embarrassed by the recent Euro-elections by the numpties in UKIP, that they suddenly start coming out with more "Let's be British" ideas. Obviously they're not thinking about trying to get the votes back.... 😉
By the way, Muslims and many African peoples had far greater freedom for everyone - women, homosexuals, people of different religions - until Christians forced their ideas on them.
I'm sorry, Crowan, but this statement says far more about mindless hatred of Christianity than it does about any accurate knowledge of history. o_O
Islam for most of its history developed as an independent religion, with little direct influence from Christianity other than sharing the same Abrahamic roots with it and with Judaism. The idea of Christians "forcing their ideas" on Muslims is absurd - European colonisation of and influence over Muslim countries didn't occur to any great extent until the 18th and 19th centuries.
The texts used by conservative Muslims to justify intolerance of women's equality, homosexuality, other religions, etc. are all from the Qur'an and the Hadith - scriptures dating back to the beginning of Islam. There is simply no way anyone can claim that Christians "forced" these ideas on Muslims.
I don't have as much knowledge of the history of African cultures, but while I agree there were in some cases more tolerant values that were eroded under colonial impositions, it's utterly facile to assume that all African pre-colonial societies were perfect, harmonious and egalitarian until the white invaders came along. Slavery, for example, wasn't solely invented and imposed by Europeans:
From about the 8th century onwards, an Arab-run slave trade also flourished, with much of this activity taking place in East Africa, Arabia, and the Indian Ocean. In addition, many African societies themselves had forms of slavery, although these differed considerably, both from each other and from the European and Arabic forms.
http://www.brycchancarey.com/slavery/chrono2.htm
In fact, where Christianity has had one of its most significant historic influences is in the abolition of slavery - Britain was the first country to advocate and work towards this, beginning in the 1770s and '80s. Virtually all the leaders of the anti-slavery movement were dedicated Christians and used their religion as the mainstay of their arguments for emancipation and human freedom.
These are normally very tolerant and respectful discussion forums - or they used to be - and it really saddens me to see people using them to attack other belief systems (my own or anyone else's) without bothering to check any historical facts. 🙁 Let's at least get this straight: The current radicalisation of Islam has nothing whatsoever to do with any Christian influence, past or present.
Of course there's a smelly rat. Isn't it somewhat convenient that, so shortly after the Con-dems have been embarrassed by the recent Euro-elections by the numpties in UKIP, that they suddenly start coming out with more "Let's be British" ideas. Obviously they're not thinking about trying to get the votes back.... 😉
True.
Politicians and sincerity...? No such thing.
Gove's "British values" and Cameron's "big society"
....we know it all.
All a spin, hollow words only one aim in sight -votes. That is as far as they care about people, country, its welfare.
But it did start a thread here and we all chimed in, forming a big society! ; ))
Well said Judy
I disagree with the comment that there is no such a thing as British values. For there is such a thing.
Every culture, sub culture, country has values they admire, live up to or at least aspire to.
...
The collective consciousness of a group. Here in Britain, there is a plethora of qualities which even British overlook because it is subjective. There is politeness, sense of duty, fairness, tolerance, freedom of thought, sense of humour an ability to play the fool, laugh at themselves, creativity.Humans talk of "our values" when they are perceived to be in danger, getting lost, or are under attack from another group. There is no need to be cynical, no need to be defensive about it. Some of the Brtish values are priceless. They must be nurtured and passed down to progeny.
It is not about perfection, it is about how things have been here.
...
I especially admire the laid back, non interfering attitude, great sense of humour, do love eccentricity, freedom.
Several German and Austrian acquaintances who have made UK their home echo the same and muse how different things are back home..
Time to love this land mass. She embraces unconditionally, run rather shoddily compared to how it could have been. But that is how things are in this world.Not a bad bunch.
Ah, Jnani, as an Australian who lives in and loves Britain too, I couldn't agree more! 🙂
I love this country's "politeness, sense of duty, fairness, tolerance, freedom of thought, sense of humour and ability to play the fool, laugh at themselves, creativity", to quote the values you listed. And really, these are values that any people of any culture, individually and collectively, can aspire to. They're not limited to the British (even though they are quintessential "British values") any more than
mathematics is limited to particular countries or cultures.
Really, these are values of common humanity - we certainly share them in Australia, although I must admit (as I've had to learn the hard way) we have somewhat less of an emphasis on politeness! 😉 But I do believe that anyone who genuinely wants to be part of Britain can take on values like these without feeling they have to also lose the unique identity of their original culture. It's intolerance and exclusivism and fear of "the other" that are always the problem - and these attitudes should never be accepted as a valid part of anyone's culture.
I'm sorry, Crowan, but this statement says far more about mindless hatred of Christianity than it does about any accurate knowledge of history.
I said “Christians”, I did not say “all Christians”. It was in reply to the comment, ”I think the point that Gove is trying to make is where our values differ from an Islamist perspective and surely that is in respect, tolerance and equality.“ and should therefore be seen in context with that.
Islam for most of its history developed as an independent religion, with little direct influence from Christianity other than sharing the same Abrahamic roots with it and with Judaism. The idea of Christians "forcing their ideas" on Muslims is absurd –
Try checking your history a little more carefully. All major religions have forced their ideas, and religions, on others.
I don't have as much knowledge of the history of African cultures, but while I agree there were in some cases more tolerant values that were eroded under colonial impositions, it's utterly facile to assume that all African pre-colonial society was perfect, harmonious and egalitarian until the white invaders came along. Slavery, for example, wasn't solely invented and imposed by European Christians:
I made no such assumptions. Most African cultures, however, were not homophobic until colonial Europeans brought “Christian Values”.
My belief is that there are good and bad people in all cultures and in all religions. Much good has been done in the name of Christianity – but much bad also.
Oh, I totally agree that there are good and bad people in all cultures and religions, and both good and bad things have been done in the name of Christianity (as with other religions as well). But this discussion was talking specifically about "where our values differ from an Islamist [i.e. Muslim fundamentalist] perspective" - and then comes the sudden sweeping assertion that "Muslims... had far greater freedom for everyone... until Christians forced their ideas on them."
There has certainly been a very long history of violence and distrust between Christians and Muslims, and of very intolerant attitudes within both faiths. But where is there any historic evidence for this claim that intolerance and extremism among Muslims arose from "Christian ideas" being "forced" on them (whichever Christians did the alleged forcing)? o_O
I don't want to derail this discussion with arguments about wrongdoing in the name of religion, by the way. I just take exception to any kind of narrow "it's all the fault of so-and-so" assertions that only fuel prejudice instead of dissolving it. 🙁
Oh, I totally agree that there are good and bad people in all cultures and religions, and both good and bad things have been done in the name of Christianity (as with other religions as well). But this discussion was talking specifically about "where our values differ from an Islamist [i.e. Muslim fundamentalist] perspective" - and then comes the sudden sweeping assertion that "Muslims... had far greater freedom for everyone... until Christians forced their ideas on them."
There has certainly been a very long history of violence and distrust between Christians and Muslims, and of very intolerant attitudes within both faiths. But where is there any historic evidence for this claim that intolerance and extremism among Muslims arose from "Christian ideas" being "forced" on them (whichever Christians did the alleged forcing)?
I don't want to derail this discussion with arguments about wrongdoing in the name of religion, by the way. I just take exception to any kind of narrow "it's all the fault of so-and-so" assertions that only fuel prejudice instead of dissolving it.
There were Muslim areas, in the Middle Ages, where women and those of different religions had far greater freedom and more rights than they did in Christian areas at the same time. A far greater respect for medicine and mathematics, too.
Take Spain for example, until the Reconquista (when Christianity was forced on them).
I admit that I am not terribly impressed by Christianity. Im not by any major religion, particularly those that have the state machine behind them. Give any group power and trouble can follow that goes for the only time shamans have been in this position, in Manchu China, as well as for the more mainstream religions. But I am not anti-Christians, who are like the rest of us just people. I certainly didnt say fault
Coming from Gove, we may smell a rat, because of general distrust of his profession!
I distrust Gove because of things that Gove has said and done. Not all politicians are untrustworthy. Some are good people.
There were Muslim areas, in the Middle Ages, where women and those of different religions had far greater freedom and more rights than they did in Christian areas at the same time. A far greater respect for medicine and mathematics, too.
Take Spain for example, until the Reconquista (when Christianity was forced on them).
Yes, that's one particular case, but I don't see any connection with Muslims in Britain today, which is the current issue that gave rise to this discussion. Is there any historical evidence that the modern-day Islamists governing schools in Birmingham had their intolerant mindsets forced on them - or their direct ancestors - by Christians?
And if not, why bring such an allegation into this discussion at all? :rolleyes:
It was a "by the way ..." in a conversation about so-called British values. Then you injected the subject of "hate" into it.
Let's leave it here?
Another thought: one of the "values" mentioned above is tolerance.
I am not tolerant. I do not tolerate other cultures. I enjoy them, I am interested in them, I welcome them. But I do not tolerate them.
To tolerate is to put up with something that you dislike.
My brother-in-law is of a different culture to me. I do not tolerate him. I like him.