9/11 Revisited - Again. Who Was Behind It?

Hi Jeannie,

If someone in high places in the US is responsible for 9/11 then they need to be rooted out before they think they can do it all over again - and if as part of that the high up person is 'very high up' then it is even more imperative that they are exposed - for they are the most dangerous of the lot.

I know, you are sooooooo right, I suppose like a lot of others I think I would rather sweep it under the carpet and hope it all goes away but that is not the right attitude to this, as said in earlier message I do hope whoever was responsible will eventually get their cumuppance :037:

 

The conspiracy of extraordinary rendition

In fact, Chris above first touched on the freedom-inhibitions derived as an outcome from 9/11.

On conspiracies in general and whether they occur, or whether there can be large conspiracies without the truth "getting out" - surely extraordinary rendition -

(the secret taking of captives without public notice, and secretly flying them to secret locations by secretive flights, either to within US territory but usually to other nations, with no due legal process, and usually with some form of torture involved)

- is surely another example of conspiracy? It was kept secret for a number of years, but only slowly exposed by journalism and conspiracy-researchers on the net, if I'm correct?

How many people would it take to go about that while keeping it secret? I'm not sure. Some positions would be limited-knowledge on a need-to-know basis, but this secret activity would at least have taken pilots, high-level secret services planners, torturers (American and otherwise), air-traffic controllers may have been given the nod not to ask too deeply, guards, agents to make the initial capture, secret service workers who received the information given by captives, international liaison with other nations in North Africa and Eastern Europe where captives were also taken for water-boarding etc ...

This was all done at one time in secret. Now it's exposed as having been real (or still is?) to the extent that it simply gets debated in public whether the UK knew and was involved. (Yes, apparently.)

So - another example of secret activities the public would never have agreed to, which took a large number of people to be involved and to never speak out. One point here is that extraordinary rendition was once a "theory" but has been exposed. The very flights and planes used are now somewhat known. Often things have to begin as "theory" but do prove true.

Has anyone been charged or punished? Not to my knowledge. Has anyone even been named?

V

What video footage and testimony shows of the Pentagon attack: NO BOEING, NO PLANE.

CCTV footage which was confiscated, but returned by court order:

Interesting how the above clip show the plane, and yet this on does:

However, with a the aircraft doing 555kph (taken from the black box on inpact), and a who knows what the frame rate is? compared with the available distance on view to the right of the building. The aircraft is travelling at 154 meters per second, so how much do you think will be captured on the video?

What I do see is the conspiracy video has decreased the contrast in the distance and hence making it harder to see the aircraft. Therefore, I think the people who push these conspiracy theories loose all credibility when they start mucking around with the video footage.

This little animation is worth looking at because it demonstrates the flight path.

I think people will believe what they want to believe at the end of the day, and the answers are more to do with the psychology of a nation that thinks it's invincible.

Myarka.

Hi Myarka,

I've seen the clearer versions such as you give a link to. (Thanks.) It's generally accepted that something hit the Pentagon. In one frame, so far as I can tell - (on 23 seconds?) - we see something, as we agree there was something. Can we identify that as a Boeing 757? Clearly not.

Looks to me as if the version in my link is blurred just as a copy of a copy - but it also begins too late, I'd say in criticism of it, sure. It virtually begins with the impact.

The link I gave which you quote, I posted because it includes CCTV footage at the end which the FBI took immediately, and which was only released as the result of a lawsuit.

What critics of the OS (Official Story) say is that there were very many public and private CCTV footages of the flight path. I've read a couple of other accounts of footage being quickly snatched from private enterprises. All that CCTV footage was taken and only the bit I link to has been released to date, to my knowledge. One assumes that the flying object was probably caught on some of the other footage. (It's not being suggested that it was a bomb, and that nothing flew.) To put matters to rest, why not release and make public all of the CCTV? Why did the portion I link to have to go through a lawsuit to obtain?

Isn't all such footage better in the public domain? I think all footage of the twin towers impacts were always public - why not Pentagon footage?

V

Isn't all such footage better in the public domain? I think all footage of the twin towers impacts were always public - why not Pentagon footage?

Probably because the pentagon is a military establishment and the twin towers were not.

Even in these post cold war days, old habits are hard to change ;).

Myarka.

I don't suppose that anyone on these boards reads as many religious internet pages and discussion forums as I do.

What makes me incredibly depressed by this obsession with 9/11 is that the allegation that the US government attacked itself was started by Islamist groups. They must be rubbing their hands in glee to see how the mental seeds they planted have grown and grown.

Judy

PS just popped back because while looking at the U-tube Myarka posted I noticed this:

While I'm writing it also occurred to me that buildings fall down during earthquakes without being hit by missiles. There must have been incredible shaking when the twin towers came down. That's it, I've said my piece - I'm out of here.

I don't suppose that anyone on these boards reads as many religious internet pages and discussion forums as I do.

What makes me incredibly depressed by this obsession with 9/11 is that the allegation that the US government attacked itself was started by Islamist groups. They must be rubbing their hands in glee to see how the mental seeds they planted have grown and grown.

Judy

Judy,

Thank you. I did some internal research which resulted in my reading
English translations of several Islamist forums. You are closer to the
truth than you may realise. And the aims of those in the Arab world
who helped start the 9/11 conspiracy theories have been far exceeded
I think. Yes, many hands are being rubbed in glee...

And since I have nothing useful to say...

That's it, I've said my piece - I'm out of here.

Ditto...

Hi Judy,

What makes me incredibly depressed by this obsession with 9/11 is that the allegation that the US government attacked itself was started by Islamist groups. They must be rubbing their hands in glee to see how the mental seeds they planted have grown and grown.

That's a huge statement to make, er ... with no back-up, references or links! I suppose it is certainly on-topic as the notion would be that the OS is valid but conspiracy theories began started by Islamist groups.

First, I'm sure you obviously did get this idea from somewhere. I'm just hugely doubtful that you are correct however. Links? References?

Second, I could go back and find it, but I cite it only as example: somewhere the other day I watched the start of a YouTube which was a recent TV interview with another conspiracy researcher. To rebut him, there was also a TV link to a member of al-Qaeda. The alleged al-Qaeda representative was vehement in opposing conspiracy theories, as - obviously? - they seek to be seen as influential and as having been solely responsible for the WTC attack. If we view 9/11 from the OS perspective, that there was no 'insider' conspiracy, then I would indeed think that al-Qaeda, in whatever form it then took, would want to claim it, and see conspiracy theories as taking their steam away.

Third, on the skeptical site of the Amazing Randi there's a history of the origins of 9/11 conspiracy theory. It begins with a post by "Master Poster" whom I suppose is Randi. It's here:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=86189

Randi is pretty good with his facts. (I just can't stand the snide comments he has a lifetime of interspercing between facts.) I reckon this will be a pretty darn accurate history of the origins ....

There's not the slightest hint of Islamist feed-ins. One of the earliest theorists, within a week of 9/11, was Jared Israel (whom I am guessing is not a Muslim 🙂 ). He was the first to question why NORAD was all stood down, i.e. zero protection of US airspace on that one day.

In short, I placed "9/11 origins origin conspiracy theory" and came up with nothing Muslim at all....? If I were looking to research the origins, I must admit I'd take the Randi post/article as a starting point.

Edit to add. To Judy and Scott: You both allege 9/11 conspiracy theories were begun by Islamists. No references or links, so it's hard to know what kind of dates you are thinking of. But I'm betting they are not that early on. I'm aware, and the Randi link confirms, that Western skepticism had begun well into the first week. In week One after 9/11 we've skepticism over NORAD being lain off, claims about the towers being demolished, questions over any Muslims being aboard at all, etc, etc. The main ideas were there, from Caucasian Americans, within a week...

V

V, I'm not going into this any more, because I don't have the time nor the patience. You can believe what you want. Search back a few years and read some Islamist forums. Google MEMRI and the 9/11 conspiracy. Or don't. It doesn't matter to me.

V,

I flew on Sept 13th 2001 with a Muslim steward. The conspiracy theories had already started. He informed me that it wasn't Muslims, but the Israeli's or Americans who had organised it all. I don't know if one can still access Muslim discussion forums from that time (frankly I have neither the time nor inclination) but if you did, you would find out that I am not making this up.

A few days after 9/11, I had a panic call from a young friend who said a Muslim chap who had picked up something she had dropped in a post office, said that he wanted to give her a warning to get out of London as there were going to be terrorist attacks. Reports started coming in from all round. I know of two Christian Science practitioners who spent all night in prayer. Then I found out it was an urban myth, being deliberately spread to cause panic and fear...

Thankfully, the majority of Muslims are thinking and decent and are horrified that their religion has been abused in such a heinous way.

I have been looking for some quotes with prophecies of Islam, that are chillingly like 9/11, haven't found them yet, but found this post to you that I saved from 2006. It seems nothing has changed.

Hi David,

I really hate commenting on anything involved with conspiracy theories as I’m very aware that I know nothing at all. I have no idea what the real facts are and I do not wish to be influenced either by those for whom these theories are advantageous (like Islamists) or by governments giving out the official accounts which might involve pulling the wool over our eyes.

I have twice had experiences of drunken members of the security forces (once on a flight and once at the Christian Science Reading Room where I work) unburdening their guilt to me and telling me things they shouldn’t have, so I am not completely naïve. I do know that our government sometimes sanctions shocking acts in the name of national security.

It’s ironical, as during the week of 9/11 (this year), I was very moved reading the account of a Christian Science Chaplain who was tending to the wounded at the Pentagon – she certainly believed it was a plane that had hit the building. I’m not surprised that all CT cameras were removed. The Pentagon is a high security building and they don’t want building layouts, personnel etc to get out.

What I DO know is that pre 9/11, I took a flight from Philadelphia to a small town and I was so shocked there was no security at all. I just carried my bag down the stairs, and then I had to carry it out to the bus, then hand it to the loader standing beside the hold.

When my friend phoned to see whether I was on the flight they said that they couldn’t tell her, as I was standby and therefore not listed.

I will also say that in the 80’s and early 90’s when I used to fly to a nameless country near here, we often had discrepancies – people would be left behind at the bar and the ground staff had no idea and one day, they closed the door on me, saying we were running late, pulled the jetty back and the Captain started taxi-ing. I looked down into the cabin and there were six passengers standing up with no seat! Not only in those countries, but I often did a head check and found that numbers didn’t tally, even out of Heathrow. I would always tell the Captain and sometimes we would taxi back. What I’m saying is that I feel it’s quite possible through mere carelessness, that on a US flight pre 9/11, that a group of passengers were not listed.

I remember reading an account of a decompression in a newspaper – the reporter had no idea what he was talking about – he was just making it up as he went along and hadn’t bothered to go to any real sources for his information, only the hysterical accounts of some passengers.

Also, being a Christian Scientist, I am acutely aware of how the media and so-called “researchers” often either deliberately misrepresent or don’t bother to find out the real facts. They have an agenda to put out and don’t allow the facts to get in the way. Seeing on a documentary how Muslims in this country were saying “Muslims didn’t attack the twin towers, the US government did” – how anyone can be so taken in and deny the facts there I don’t know. Some of their suicide videos have recently been released by AK, apart from CT footage of the twin-tower men going through the security search at Boston (?) where their bar tools which were used to gouge out the stewardess’ and pilots' eyes, were not considered to be dangerous. These gory details were relayed by passengers on their mobiles – how people can deny all that I have no idea.

While I was with the airline, we had two days a year when we had our safety, medical and security retraining and exams. The security one during 2002 was particularly intensive. I’ve just typed something out which actually I’ve decided not to post, as it was a mistake the organisers of 9/11 made that they could learn from. It was the way that the terrorists were easily identified. One thing I can say is that there was at least one either flight, when, after the closure of air space was announced, a group of Middle-Eastern-looking men got up and left the airport.

The other thing that I was considering is that it’s impossible to invent an aircraft and passengers. Even if you invented passengers, any airline and its employees would know that the fictitious crew did not exist.

Another thing is that, having done a most basic course of PhotoShop, I realise how easy it is to doctor photos and film. I totally agree that the photos of the Pentagon look very suspicious, but have they been doctored to put doubt in our minds? How do you actually KNOW that anything on those web sites is true? I remember after 9/11 one of the bits of rubbish being deliberately put out was that the aircraft identification on the tail of one of the planes that hit the twin towers, when put into Webdings showed the twin towers and the map of Israel – the letters and numbers being put out did, but they were NOT the aircraft’s identification.

One of the features of these two days I used to spend on aircraft safety and security was dissecting airline crashes. It is NEVER the result of just one action or event, but ALWAYS the combination of a combination of many factors, like mechanical failure due to carelessness plus poor judgement by the pilots often due to poor training and recognition, lack of communication, relationship problems with other crew members, air traffic control etc – the list is endless. In so many cases, these accidents are preventable.

So, all in all, I do believe that through slackness, carelessness, lack of shared intelligence, lack of communication and yes, sheer breathtaking arrogance that “it couldn’t happen to me” that 9/11 was the result of a whole load of missed opportunities to prevent the catastrophe that was about to happen.

I’m also so grateful that our security forces, here and around the world are now sharing information and are preventing more horrors. If it means living in a police state, so be it!

Whew

OK, I have now found the prophecy I wanted to share. I had read it some years prior to 9/11, but when it happened, a chill went through me as I recognised how certain individuals could interpret this from a literal way and use it as justification

First, I shall outline their concept of the Messiah's advent. They believe that the very Jesus, Son of Mary, whom the Ouran declares a prophet of the Israelites, will descend bodily from the sky. He will immediately set out with sword in hand and hack to death all enemies of Islam! His global sweep shall have three grand objective;. The first objective will be the destruction of the Cross. Not figuratively, but literally! He will set about destroying the symbol of Christian faith with such vigour that not a trace shall be left of it. There will not remain a single Cross to be seen-in Church or home or around any neck.

According to them, his next important task will be the extermination of swine of every variety-domestic as well as wild! So, the followers of the Cross will then be left with neither a Cross for prayer nor a pig for dinner. Thus, Christ will deprive the Christians of the articles not only of their spiritual sustenance but also of their physical nourishment.

The third task for the Messiah will be the killing of "Dajjal" the Antichrist. Now who is this Antichrist? According to Traditions, if taken literally, as some would have it, he will be a one-eyed Colossus who will come riding an ass of extraordinary proportions. He will be so tall that his head will stand higher than the clouds. All prophets have warned their followers against the evil of this Antichrist. Now, while the Antichrist is busy ravaging the earth the Messiah will descend from the heavens. He will engage the Antichrist in battle near Damascus and slay him. He will then conquer the entire world. Having done this, he will hand over its governance to the Muslims....

The Antichrist, too, like the Messiah, the Cross and the Swine is symbolic. He symbolises a great and powerful nation which rules not only the earth but also space. The Cross and the Swine are in fact symbols pertaining to this nation. The Traditions say that the Antichrist's right eye will be sightless but his left eye will be large and bright. This is a symbolic description of the fact that though this nation would be devoid of spiritual light yet its material insight and therefore material attainments, would be great.

Lastly, the Ahmadi Muslims consider the Antichrist's ass to be a symbol too- a symbol that was used to describe the means of transportation of the days to come. All the features describing this ass are without exception identifiable with the fuel-powered vehicles invented by the West. Consider the salient features of the ass-as described in the traditions-it will eat fire, it will travel over land, over sea and above the air; its speed will be so great that it will cover a journey of months within the space of a few hours; the passengers will travel not on its back but in its belly which would be lit up; it will announce its departure and ask passengers to take their seats. The fulfillment of these things with such wondrous exactness is a glorious testimony of the truth of the Holy Prophet Muhammad, peace be on him. http://www.alislam.org/books/revival/index.html/

And that really is my final word. I'd already said all this 4 years ago - and you're still banging on about it. Groan.

Judy

Hi Scott,

I'm not twisting your arm to post here if it's of no interest to you. 😮

My previous post is simply a reply to the idea, first written by Judy, that

the allegation that the US government attacked itself was started by Islamist groups

I had to smile when I read that. I may myself be supportive of some conspiracy research, and certainly that it can be worthwhile to consider conspiracy scenarios (since some are factually a part of the historical record now). All the same, there's a heck of a lot of it in America, and I knew that skepticism towards the 9/11 official story (which itself is muddled) began very early within the USA, in the first week and weeks.

If anyone can show me that the first week of American (and soon after, French) skepticism was triggered even earlier, such as in the first 24 hours after 9/11, by Muslim perspectives, then I suppose Judy's case would have been made. But I fear it was an unresearched and sweeping statement.

I'm interested to know more, all the same. The President of Iran ranted about it today at the UN.

V

Well, Judy, we night owls! Our posts crossed, so that was near to a fait accomplait by you given what I'd just posted! 😀

Judy, some people do "bang on" about major global events if they are suspicious, yes. Extremely major doubts about how JFK died would never have emerged, nor the official US line on his death have been reversed, had not many people "banged on" about discrepencies in the Dealey Plaza official story for 15 years, 1961-1976. Now, to say JFK was shot by a lone gunman is to go against officially-accepted evidence. Who ended up being the fools there? (Not writing to you, but in general, that it's often very healthy to question the official line. It's a search for and a love of Truth - not "banging on".)

Thanks for being able to say something was said to you by a Muslim just two days after 9/11. I don't doubt you, but right now that's just personal anecdote. I don't know how accessible all Middle-East forums are going back to 2001. I did just try one and it only seemed to have recent posts.

However, I know how US conspiracy researchers work, or Americans in general - to generalise grossly. They hardly go reading Muslim forums to get their first impressions upon anything! It's possible that Islamists had their own version of 9/11 not being as the OS told very early on: this will not in slightest have influenced Caucasion researchers (especially not Jared Israel!). So any Islamic opinion did not begin 9/11 conspiracy beliefs in the West, I assure you.

Do take a look at Randi's chronology of the origins of 9/11 skepticism.

All I can say apart from that is sorry, it may well be me, but I just miss any relevance in the prophecy quote to how Western researchers began thinking about 9/11 within a week and weeks.

I'm not going to search it out now, but from memory, bin Laden's first video after 9/11 didn't have him claiming responsibility for the attack, and he appeared quite bemused to have been blamed. (But he's not been officially blamed: no one at all still living is being sought for 9/11.)

Thanks all the same for replying on the kind of topic you don't really enjoy, and stay away from. Is appreciated that you did.

V

Interesting comments - things are never clear.
What is very telling I think is that no group has claimed responsibility - for something like this surely it would be a great coup for a terrorist group and they would want to be celebrating and telling the world of their achievement - what a recruiting and fund raising opportunity!
Even if they did decide to keep quiet I see no sense in some of the things that went on from a terrorist point of view - tower 7 is such a case - it was not spectacular, it effectively added nothing to the attack as a terror attack, yet it seems it was brought down by explosives.
The silence instead speaks volumes - whoever did this does not want people to know who they are - this is not the face of a terror group, but a covert group with other objectives in mind.
The clincher for me is Bush - what president would keep reading a childrens book to a class while spectacular terror attacks are in motion, his lack of surprise - his mannerisms to this information was just astonishingly telling.

Edited to add:
with all the dust that included asbestos I suspect that the real death toll has still to be added to - there must have been thousands who breathed in the dust immediately after and over the weeks following - what of them?

chris

There are a number of approaches that can be made to approaching the subject of 9/11 - pro or contra whether it all happened as we were so quickly told, or whether there was a significant element of non-Islamic conspiracy going on.

Sometimes it seems to come down merely to opinion. So how about trying some real science? The THREE (not just the Twin) Towers which fell, (though one had not even received any plane-impact, and it fell much later), have been scientifically shown to have fallen at a speed which didn't speed up or slow down. In science, this contradicts Newton's Law that two objects (floors) impacting upon each other must effect each other. In other words, in a normal, unassisted collapse, the rate of collapse (though the towers were built to withstand plane-impact anyway) would have slowed.

In this clip, a scientist attempts to reproduce - in experiments - any kind of collapse which doesn't lose speed. He can't. He finds it impossible. (Without the added element of demolitions being placed within each floor.) In fact, this clip shows deliberately-demolished buildings coming down, and it's nothing like what we see in all three cases of the World Trade Centre.

Thanks to Jim, otherwise known on HP as Jmmmmm, for this.

V

About three years ago a guy called William Rodriguez came to speak in PLymouth. He was the janitor at the WTC on 9/11, and was the last man out of the building before it collapsed- he too would have died but he dived under a fire engine. He has toured the world speaking about what happened, sticking strictly to his own experience.

Two things he is sure about are that (a) the first explosion was below the sub-basement level (he was in the first basement level, and he heard it coming from below) (b) further explosions occured all the way up the building, hence the horizontal "jets" of smoke visible in photos/films. These were not cooking gas as the WTC was all-electric.

He recieved a medal for helping to rescue many people, and was offered a lot of money by the US govt to stick to the offical line, but he refused. He is not an extremist- for instance he makes it clear that people of all races/faiths died on 9/11, including many Jewish people.

He's well worth seeing if he tours here again, a very good speaker once you "tune in" to his Puerto Rican accent.