I thought I would share this piece of writing, in which I compare ancient (Gita) views on Devotion and Love to someone (Ramakrishna) much more recent. It's about the central place of karma, reincarnation, but also devotion in Hinduism:
Edited to add: I guess what really strikes me is the importance of Love and Devotion as "the Way" - not wisdom alone. The ancient and also fairly recent views that Love and Devotion are just so important:
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INTRODUCTION
The 'Hindu tradition' has proven difficult to define, and 'Hinduism' itself has been demonstrated to be a Western reification of most (not Muslim or Buddhist) of the various hues and styles of belief found on the Indian subcontinent (cf. Jackson, 55-59). Both Western academics and Hindus themselves do however generally agree today that Hinduism is a 'tradition' of sorts, having some commonalities wherever it is found.
Adherence to and honour for the Bhagavad Gita (hereafter abbreviated to 'Gita') certainly tends to be among these commonalities among many Hindus. While it is not an absolutely foundational scripture for Hinduism such as the Bible is for Christianity or the Q'uran for Islam, nevertheless the Gita has over time come to be regarded as the most fundamental and expressive of the entire Hindu canon of scripture. It is therefore the ideal single text to consult on 'Hindu' beliefs, and we shall take the Gita as being as good as any single text can be in being representative of Hinduism - at least of the 'theological' Hindu tradition, if not as it is always lived in real life.
ARE THERE OTHER EQUALLY VALID 'CORES' TO HINDUISM?
Are there other beliefs and practices within Hinduism that we could offer as being absolutely 'core' to the tradition such as reincarnation, karma, and bhakti may be?
Beliefs in particular gods are widespread though not upheld by absolutely all Hindus. We might cite a large pantheon including names such as Brahma, Krishna, and Kali, yet none of these gods whether viewed as deities or as 'energies' are important to all Hindus. Practices such as puja may not be discovered among jnanis or yogis.
One other aspect of Hinduism might be said to be a commonality, being almost always found in one form or another, and that is the belief in an ultimate spiritual goal which can be attained through living life, or lives, in a certain manner. This goal may be a certain state of consciousness such as samadhi, or, what is not quite the same thing, it may be a higher state of being or existence, as in one having attained moksha or liberation.
But in fact this does still bring us back to the suggested commonalities of karma and reincarnation. For, if one is to be liberated, then liberated from what? Again, the answer is liberation from karma and from the rounds of rebirth. So in virtually all cases, when Hinduism has as a core belief that there is an ultimate goal we can all strive toward, this is actually just the other side of the coin to the state we are in before we attain that goal, this state being that we are ensconced within the maya of karma and prey to rebirth. These do seem, then, to be worthy concepts to
RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism
Dear Venetian and how does this fit with these verses from the Gita.
(5.17) "They, whose mind and intellect are absorbed in the Self, who remain firmly attached with the Self, who have Self as their supreme goal, whose sins (or impurities) have been destroyed by the knowledge, do not take birth again.
(5.24) "One who finds happiness with the Self, who rejoices the Self within, and who is illuminated by the Self-knowledge; such a yogi becomes one with Brahman and attains supreme nirvana.
(6.08) "A yogi is called Self-realized who is satisfied with knowledge and understanding of the Self, who is equanimous, who has control over the (mind and) senses, and to whom a clod, a stone, and gold are the same.
(15.05) "Those who are free from pride and delusion, who have conquered the evil of attachment, who are constantly dwelling in the Supreme Self with all Kaama completely stilled, who are free from the dualities known as pleasure and pain; such undeluded persons reach the eternal goal."
The Bhagavad-Gita
Like all scripture is there not contradiction or is it our intepretation different in context?
Love beyond measure
Kim xx
RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism
Hi Kim,
ORIGINAL: Sacredstar
Dear Venetian and how does this fit with these verses from the Gita
....<snip>.......
Like all scripture is there not contradiction or is it our intepretation different in context?Love beyond measure
Kim xx
I don't understand the problem or the question frankly; as the Gita clearly explains what is meant by the term "Self
so I see no real problem (as you seem to imply) as there is no contradiction and no need to put it down to interpretation either.
Hi 'V',
What a thoroughly good read mate! 😀
Your notes & thoughts on Bhakti were thought provoking and I consider the 'Bhakti' tradition to be from the earliest stages in the 'Hindu' tradition.
This is perhaps off topic, but I feel that this 'Bhakti' tradition permeated through many many cultures throughout the East and may even have influenced thought further a field (as I slightly elude to in Kim's discussion on Sufis [link= http://www.healthypages.net/forum/tm.asp?m=76028 ]http://www.healthypages.net/forum/tm.asp?m=76028[/link])perhaps even had a hand in Christian belief?!
Your excellent post has made me want to get my hands on a copy of Ramakrishna's 'Gospel' soon, I like very much the thought that these were not the learned thoughts of a well read 'Hindu' intellectual but rather the lived in 'experience' of a 'do-er'; after all, the 'Hindu' theory of reaching 'God' is based on a man living through his respective 'ages & duties' finally settling on the right time to spend the rest of his life seeking communion with the 'one'.
I would very much like to know what your thinking is on the concept of Dharma and how it integrates into Karma and the way one lives one's life?
Rgds,
Roger
RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism
hi v,
thanks for sharing that work with us. i enjoyed reading it... i "think" i understood it ;).
interestingly, some of the points from the other thread (nirvana/ clear/ moksha) were addressed... for me at any rate. the story of the suicide, for instance... that would fit.
so thanks, mate... good work!
RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism
Roger,
I know you have some form of Eastern background andI am particularly interested in the reaction of true Hindus to this, rather than Westerners such as myself who have just 'read the books'. Yes, I know you are a Londoner etc., :Dbut all the same...
ORIGINAL: Conspiritualist
Your notes & thoughts on Bhakti were thought provoking and I consider the 'Bhakti' tradition to be from the earliest stages in the 'Hindu' tradition.
I should come clean.I was putting forth the thesis that Love and Devotion is the essence and core of all spiritual practice. That was just a thesis as in "Then discuss it". In truth I actually believe that knowledge and wisdom is essential too. You can be devotional for aeons yet not really touch base with the Source. All the same, Ramakrishna, I am certain, knew this, and was telling the people around him what they really, for themselves, did need to hear at that time.
Your excellent post has made me want to get my hands on a copy of Ramakrishna's 'Gospel' soon,
I can't tell you how much I recommend it! Either the whole thing or an abridged version. One of my top ten books. It is just simply stunning! Thing is, it doesn't even relate just to Hindus, but R's words relate to anyone on a true spiritual Path.
I would very much like to know what your thinking is on the concept of Dharma and how it integrates into Karma and the way one lives one's life?
I've got to rush off and be busy. This is a deep question! Maybe we can keep it in mind for a thread in days to come?
V