The only fact that is beyond refute, is that all facts are best guesses, based on available evidence, theory and knowledge base of the society that deems a statement to be beyond question.
There are facts that are beyond dispute - the term "fact" means a pragmatic truth, a statement that be checked, verified. So, for example, it is a fact that: 2 + 2 = 4
It could not be 5, 22, or anything else, no matter how many people believed it, or were persuaded to believe it (ie by religious or state brainwashing). If you don't believe this fact, then you are welcome to count for yourself, and then you will see that there is no mistake.
In the same way, it's a fact that Elvis is dead. You may choose to believe that he's not dead (ie stories of his death are lies), or that he is alive and well in heaven. Now, we may not all have actually seen Elvis's dead body to be certain, but the second hand info is so overwhelming, that we can accept as fact that Elvis is dead - and if you were determined, you could dig his grave and do a DNA or other checks to make sure!
Is Elvis in heaven? Even if millions of people believe that he is alive and well heaven, this would never be a fact because we can't check that.
Is there evolution (ie change in genetic material over time)? Yes, and this is a fact, a fact beyond dispute. No matter if the entire world does not believe it, it is still fact because it is true, and you can easily verify that it is.
Is the biblical creationism a fact? ie, did the biblical God, portrayed as an angry old man with a beard and stick, manufacture the world with a "woosh"?
No, this is not a fact, even though there are billions of people that believe that this is true.
Did He "woosh" the earth (flat earth) into existence in a day and made it the center if the world? Did He "woosh" the sun to rise and fall above the flat earth? Did He "woosh" the plants and animals into existence? Did he "woosh" man (adam) to appear on earth and to look just like Himself?
No, none of these are facts - they can not be verified as correct, they are beliefs only.
There are facts that are beyond dispute - the term "fact" means a pragmatic truth, a statement that be checked, verified. So, for example, it is a fact that: 2 + 2 = 4
Dear James,
For me to accept that 2+2=4 is irrefutably true in all conditions (is that a fair definition of what you mean by a "fact?") I must first understand what you mean by all these little symbols you've consigned to script. What is 2? What is +? What is 4? and what is =?
Of course I know what you mean as I too was brainwashed by my teachers. The difference is I now can see that they were brainwasted too. Lets take the symbol 2. I was taught, like you, that 2 was 1+1. Now for me to know what 2 is I must know what 1 and + represent. For me to know what these symbols represent I must know what they are. Can you tell me James?
As it happens I don't believe in the symbol + or the symbol = quite as religiously as you do. I believe they are part of a language that we humans have created that has got self defining rules. I have never seen "=" or "+" or a 2 or 4 or even a 1 for that matter in nature or even in my dreams. I find it very hard to accept that these are facts?
Now, just for the sake of a little interesting discussion, I'll just accepty your hypothesis that 2+2 is a fact (and that a fact is true in all conditions). Do you think 2+2=4 was true before the big bang and in the miniscule moments after the big bang?
If you don't believe this fact, then you are welcome to count for yourself, and then you will see that there is no mistake.
Your are very kind James. As I have explained, I also did learn the rules of this language you call counting but have my doubts about it's value in all circumstances. If you have read this string you will perahs remember my earlier post which argues that some thing have to come out of nothing and if this was ever the case this must also be possible all ways... Eureka, perhaps we have found a fact at last! That there can never be a condition that is true for all conditions... That it is a fact that there is not such thing as a fact!!!
Is Elvis in heaven? Even if millions of people believe that he is alive and well heaven, this would never be a fact because we can't check that.
In the same way, it's a fact that Elvis is dead.
Now you are just being silly! I bet you don't believe in Faeries either!
Is Elvis in heaven? Even if millions of people believe that he is alive and well heaven, this would never be a fact because we can't check that.
Only if you're a logical positivist. And I think the time for the delusion that all things must be testable under scientific conditions for them to be notions worthy of consideration, has passed. At least on this forum I have a suspicion that people would agree that this is the case. I mean those of us who do believe in Faeries can but only have a giggle at the naievity of logical positivists.
Refering to Elivs being in Heaven and other beliefs:
No, none of these are facts - they can not be verified as correct, they are beliefs only.
I "think" it is a fact that this is a belief that you hold. But I also think that you are a little naieve to think so.
Norbu
The only fact that is beyond refute, is that all facts are best guesses, based on available evidence, theory and knowledge base of the society that deems a statement to be beyond question. This is a product of convention of the society that holds any given statement to be true.
Norbu
Well put Norbu 🙂
You only have to study the history of 'fact' based science to see this, many things held as indisputable truth in say the 18th century are no regarded as naive fancy - whilst still remaining in the realm of 'scientific' definitions, I would say that a 'fact' is a representation of the sum of accumulated human knowledge on a specific subject at a particular time and is a dynamic description not a static one.
There are facts that are beyond dispute - the term "fact" means a pragmatic truth, a statement that be checked, verified. So, for example, it is a fact that: 2 + 2 = 4
It depends upon what the '2' s are, if they are whole apples then I agree but what if they are 2 bowls of cooked apples which are added ? You end up with one big bowl when you add them together.
Also in mathematical terms 2.4 would be rounded to 2 but 2.4 +2.4 = 4.8, which would be rounded to 5
In chemistry, 4 molecues may react together to give 1 molecule, or 2 molecules may react to give 4
:nature-smiley-008:
Hi Norbu,
I have a friend who loves his philosophy. His writing is a bit like yours, but much more dense (removed from layman's language and understanding). I ignore his articles, and bits of his emails :p , and just talk to him. I gotta say that I've chosen to have little interest in this philosophical delving into whether everything is true or rather "what is truth?" - "would a tree still fall down if nobody was there to hear it?" or whatever. I find it leads nowhere, and in this thread is going way off-tack IMHO.
Is the biblical creationism a fact? ie, did the biblical God, portrayed as an angry old man with a beard and stick, manufacture the world with a "woosh"?
It's worth noting, mind, that until recent centuries and the rise of Protestantism, Genesis and its Creation myths were recognised by Christians for what they were: a compounding of more than one stories, which are all allegorical anyway. Christians, as many in other faiths, had a mystical and basically esoteric understanding of God as The All-Perfect One Living Being Itself. They didn't at all believe in an old man with a beard (paintings of such were realised to be depictions of the unfathomable), and knew the Genesis Creation stories were not literal. The literal train of thought is quite recent, and doesn't relate to Christianity as it usually has been at all.
V