RE: Do We Need Spiritual Teachers? Or Can We Grow Alone?
Peacewatcher
I was going to give you exactly the advice that Venetian has given above: 'when the disciple is ready, the guru will appear.' I really don't think you can go shopping for a guru as you would for a new television. There is so much 'stuff' around enlightenment, it's often hard to decide if someone is enlightened or not. Another apt little saying goes along the lines: 'Those who speak don't know; those who know don't speak' so I personally find someone like Andrew Cohen, who not only claims to be enlightened but also claims to be more powerful than his first teacher, Papaji, extremely iffy. My own teacher is Amma (Mata Amritanandamayi) who is generally held by her followers to be of the Highest, a true Satguru, an avatar of God. But I don't believe She uses those terms about Herself. AND as I am nothing if not totally honest, I have to say that I have found myself becoming more and more alienated from Her organisation which is now SOOOO big, and seemingly so money orientated. (Mind you, it is a fact that She uses this money in the purest and highest way: tsunami relief for example.) We have in the past had a long discussion on HP about gurus and I believe that here in the west we are mainly unaware about the original and true relationship between guru and disciple. A true disciple obeys the gurus every command without question, however unreasonable. TOTAL faith and devotion is called for. We westerners are usually far too suspicious and wary to commit to that kind of relationship.
However, I do believe that a teacher is at the very least a useful thing to have: how can we learn from each other if none of us knows everything? That's like taking a class full of children and telling them 'OK kids, no teachers, you all have to learn maths from each other.' How can this happen? You've got to have teachers. But there are definitely some dodgy ones out there.
Love and blessings
Sunanda xxx
RE: Do We Need Spiritual Teachers? Or Can We Grow Alone?
Hi Peacewatcher,
I don't think it's a method that can work for anyone to give anyone else a list of names. It's something that has to be researched or found in whatever for way for oneself. In my books, as I posted above, the best teachers are not on 'lists' anywhere anyway.
A list would be only one person's personal preferance list - of little value to another with a different point of view. Again, 'When the disciple is ready, the Teacher appears'. So the emphasis is not on finding a Teacher, but on one's own inner work on oneself. Then everything else happens naturally. In this sense, other posters above are quite right: the emphasis is on ourselves and not on following a leader - though I would add 'to begin with'. Then the unexpected enters into your life. But true it is, the main and certainly opening emphasis is on oneself and how one gets closer to one's spiritual goal as well as expanding one's humanitarian work to others. IMHO.
Venetian
RE: Do We Need Spiritual Teachers? Or Can We Grow Alone?
Sunanda, I hear you -- about the money-organization thing. When I was searching for "something" about 15 years ago, I attended a lecture given by Gurumayi (I think that's how you spell it). She definitely had "it" and I cried tears of joy. Then when I investigated further, it seemed that every book, tape, class, etc., cost hundreds of dollars. I thought, "Does one have to be rich in order to find enlightenment?"
Fortunately, I "stumbled" upon Autobiography of a Yogi and other tapes and books by Yogananda. They happened to be in my price range, thank God. I felt divinely guided from that point on. I am still a bit scared to commit totally to a guru, though. However, I do trust the organization and personnel of the late Paramahamsa Hariharananda (whose own guru was Sri Yukteswar and whom Yogananda appointed to run the ashram in India when he moved to the States), so that's a start. I've just volunteered to transcribe some of his tapes for a future book and I'm very excited to be able to hear his teachings. Just sad that he died too soon!
RE: Do We Need Spiritual Teachers? Or Can We Grow Alone?
ORIGINAL: NoPatterns
I am still a bit scared to commit totally to a guru, though. However, I do trust the organization and personnel of the late Paramahamsa Hariharananda
I'd say that in almost all instances of how a Guru handles things, there are levels of commitment, or concentric circles of those gathered around. This works both ways. On the one hand, a Guru may decide that a certain number are ready to be the closest disciples, whereas others are kept a little more at bay as 'followers' or even just interested guests. On the other hand, no matter what a Guru thinks, we should always have free will to commit or not to whatever level we decide. If we feel cautious, then that's our free will. The level of commitment is therefore a mutual thing.
Sunanda, yes, I hear you on when a body of followers gets big! I've been in both situations. I've been in the situation where the numbers were so small that the Guru almost was the one to come and meet me at an airport 😀 on my arrival. On the other hand, I've also been in the situation of being with 3,000 others at events. However, I nevertheless find, at least in the kind of experiences I've had, that if someone is committed enough, you get right next to 'the one' and get any training or help you need.
But I know that isn't always the case, and I certainly have heard that voiced before - 'I wish I could get to meet xxxxxx and spend longer talking' - or to meet at all! Then other dynamics come into play - which is a different thread really - such as possible 'politics' concerning the inner core who 'buffer' a teacher from a very large following, and who may have control over who has access etc, etc. There are cases when that has gone a bit sour, but then it's the test of such inner cores not to allow this to occur.
V
RE: Do We Need Spiritual Teachers? Or Can We Grow Alone?
Dear Sunanda
'when the disciple is ready, the guru will appear.'
And it is often that the teacher appears but the student isnt ready!
There was a case recently that a young man sent a beautiful Christmas card, the teacher had not been in his life for six years. He sent the most beautiful message of gratitude and thanks due to his lack of appreciation in the past.
At the time he was not ready to listen or embrace, but yet it turned out that the teacher had a profound impact on his life and career in a positive way. The teacher rang him following receipt of the card and felt humbled by his ability to admit that he had kicked, screamed and rebelled originally, but ultimately he benefited greatly by his own admission from what had been shared.
It had been six years before he had come to the full realisation of the profound impact this person had on his life. He asked if she would be willing to share a bottle of wine and they met in reunion and discussed the times gone by. Yet both had changed during the missing years that had passed, so it was like getting to know each other all over again, a different space, time and dimension a beautiful end to a painful experience for the receiver of the benefits.
In the past Archangel Michael said if it doesnt fit now do not disregard it, because it may fit you further down the line when your own soul aligns with the energy that is brought to you.
'Those who speak don't know; those who know don't speak'
If that was true nobody would ever speak a word.
A true disciple obeys the gurus every command without question, however unreasonable. TOTAL faith and devotion is called for. We westerners are usually far too suspicious and wary to commit to that kind of relationship.
Your quote Sunanda gives me greater understanding of this message from Spirit received last year.
"A Guru isnt a guru unless they keep
people under their thumb
and their finger on the pulse.
When you live in tune
with the natural laws,
you are truly a free spirit.
The free spirit does not need a Guru
for you are your own teacher,
and you hold the wisdom of the
universe and GOD in your own heart.
I would add that a lot of light workers are aware that we cannot obey two masters hence why most do not allow intermediaries to come between themselves and GOD.
That's like taking a class full of children and telling them 'OK kids, no teachers, you all have to learn maths from each other.'
Well there was an very interesting case shared on HP by one of the members that talked about home education and how his girls just played with toys for the first year and it took a tremendous amount of trust by the parents to allow them to come to learning when they were ready and indeed they did, the day came when they got interested in maths and got out the maths books with no outside influence at all. The parents were amazed and overjoyed.
Trust your heart and soul to guide you and all will be well.
Love beyond measure
Kim xx
PS Beautiful story Venetian