Every politician wants to achieve power and then retain power. It's their purpose in life. Why the surprise when they pursue their aims?
Do you not think there are ANY politicians who put principle first?
It's a question of degree.....a one party state doesn't ring alarm bells with you then?
Indeed it would. But I don't actually buy into the narrative that's being presented here.
Do you not think there are ANY politicians who put principle first?
Ummm... no. As Lord Acton observed, "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". I have no doubt that most politicians have principles; they also have ideals - which they seek to impose on everyone. Once you have the power to impose your beliefs on others it's a slippery slope.
Benn? (T, not H) Skinner? Corbyn?
What would you do then? To avoid a one-party state?
To be honest, I would think it just as likely that the Labour party would instigate a one-party state as the Tories - they generally tend to be higher on the authoritarian axis than the Tories, although there's probably not much in it.
Well, we have checks and balances in place within the system; we have a relatively free media (although much of it controlled by powerful individuals, they are not beholden to a specific party) - so I think it would be hard for any party to do it. However, it's easy to see how it might come in all too easily in exceptional circumstances.
As for me, I sign petitions and comment online when I think the government is wrong. if it really came to - I guess I'd be out on the streets.
The three MPs I thought of above do happen to be Labour, and I admit I couldn't think of any Tories or UKIP or Lib-dem to go on there. But I could add Elfin Llwyd or Liz Saville Roberts. Or Caroline Lucas. Some people just seem to be more honest than others.
Do you really believe we have a free media? The ties between - for example - Murdoch and the conservatives are documented. Maybe it's the government in the media's pockets, rather than the other way around.
What would make you take to the streets - destruction of the welfare state? Of the environment?
To be honest, I would think it just as likely that the Labour party would instigate a one-party state as the Tories - they generally tend to be higher on the authoritarian axis than the Tories, although there's probably not much in it.
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I think you are out of date here. Besides, it is the Tories who are changing the rules to make it less likely any other party could get in.
By the way - I don't vote Labour.
Do you really believe we have a free media? The ties between - for example - Murdoch and the conservatives are documented. Maybe it's the government in the media's pockets, rather than the other way around.
I did say relatively free. And with the web it's pretty easy to find other sources of information. As for Murdoch et al - well, that's a topic in itself. I think we're seeing the rise of a supra-national oligarchy. That concerns me far more than any national shenanigans.
I think you are out of date here. Besides, it is the Tories who are changing the rules to make it less likely any other party could get in.
By the way - I don't vote Labour.
Yes, the Political Compass currently rates the Tories as more authoritarian than Labour; in 2010 it was the other way round. As I said, there's nothing much in it - although personally I would view the Tories as having a far greater libertarian wing than Labour.
The article you originally posted was from the New Statesman - well, they would demonise the Tories, wouldn't they? I don't think what they say adds up to a fundamental threat to democracy. I also recall that the first (?) abuse of the Prevention of Terrorism act was carried out by Labour to prevent an old guy from heckling their conference... Politicians are politicians are politicians.
I didn't mean to abandon this - I had an op on my hand last week (carpal tunnel decompression) and I've found it hard to type. On the plus side, this has given me a chance to think about this conversation as a whole. It can be easy (for me at least) to concentrate on the last post and forget the whole thread!
First of all - I'm not surprised that any in-power party would want to retain that position. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't be aware of what's happening - and try to work against it if we disagree with it.
Secondly - I'm not sure where this got to be a Tory / Labour argument. You seemed to be saying that it's okay whatever the Tories do, because Labour would do it too. That could just be a reason to stop them both.
Yes, Labour were, for a while, generally acting more authoritarian. Times change. And Labour/New Labour/back to Labour again have possibly changed more than most. But, historically (prior to about 2000?) they are a less authoritarian party. And, of course, they've both swung so far right that the centre ground (and Corbyn, for example, is centre) is regularly dubbed ' the hard left'.
Look at where Labour started - a quarter occupied now only by PC and the Greens!
Do you consider the New Statesman particularly - well, what? Left? Anti-tory? Any paper or magazine that has so many different opinion writers (like the Guardian) is likely to be viewed as 'left' by right-wingers and 'right' by left-wingers. I think this is an inevitable result of on-line media. If I buy a print paper I tend to want my money's worth so I read everything except sport (and even then, I'll check the Rugby results if Wales is playing). But, on-line, I pick and choose. I guess most people do. If so, then most people are missing the fact that both the New Statesman and The Guardian have opinion writers from across the scale. But both are well regarded for their factual reporting - which is more than many papers can claim.
Interesting diagram...shame it is not up to date, i.e. taking into account the more recent years. Wonder what Jeremy Corbyn's influence on the Labour party would look like on that? Or Cameron's, come to that!
Interesting diagram...shame it is not up to date, i.e. taking into account the more recent years. Wonder what Jeremy Corbyn's influence on the Labour party would look like on that? Or Cameron's, come to that!
I imagine that Jeremy Corbyn will be pulling Labour more to the centre - although not very far yet. The rest of the party is still fairly right of centre.
I hope your hand is healing nicely!
I wasn't at all intending it to be a Tory vs Labour issue. Except to argue against a common attitude (which I don't claim that you share) that the Tories are demons, Labour are angels - and thus if any party were to try to create a one-party state it would be the Tories. I read that NS article in this light.
My view is perhaps captured best by "A plague on both your houses".
We don't have a genuine democracy in this country - what we do have is perhaps closer to an elected dictatorship. That's fine if the dictator is both wise and benevolent, but otherwise it's not good news.