Its very important because all the Islamic fundamentalism that you see today all over the world is a result of what the British did - deliberately or inadvertently I don't know.
Perhaps a little strong to suggest that all the Islamic fundamentalism is a result of what the British did.
Sounds very much like an eye for an eye. We all know that that is not the way to live and you can't blame the British of the present day for what happened in historic circumstances. Personally I find that sort of blame as nonesense and almost schoolchild-like.
Love and Reiki Hugs
exactly how can what happened so many years ago affect now, it is now that we are all concerned about, and what did happened in our history makes hopefully better human beings.
Did you watch the film 'The Butterfly Effect'?
One thing leads to another, to another, to another....
I'm not blaming the British - but this is how it happened.
All Islamic Fundamentalism is based on Whabism (thats what the term, the ideology means - back to the fundamentals). Whabism was installed on the Saudi people by the British, the later oil money spread it all over the world.
Did you know that for EVERY friday prayers in Mecca there are around 2-3 million people? Most of these people come from outside of Saudi, from all over the Islamic world. The influence of Saudi (whabi) thought on Islam is huge.
Did you know that followers of Rumi have been banned in Iran and Afghanistan? If Rumi was alive today amongst the Taliban or other fundamentalists, they'd probably hang him.
So what has changed in the Islamic world to make Rumi an outlaw in his own country, and how? What books are the taliban and the mullahs reading? Where did these books come from?
Much of the oil money since the 70's has gone into religious education (whabi indoctrination). All modern islamic books that you will find today are based on Whabism.
Perhaps a little strong to suggest that all the Islamic fundamentalism is a result of what the British did.
Sounds very much like an eye for an eye. We all know that that is not the way to live and you can't blame the British of the present day for what happened in historic circumstances. Personally I find that sort of blame as nonesense and almost schoolchild-like.
Love and Reiki Hugs
1. Animals
Judeo-Islamic laws are similar, and to understand them one should go back to the times of Abraham, Jacob and their communities. Jesus, remember, was Jewish, and lived as per Jewish Law. They lived with animals, animals were very important to them, essential for their lifestyles, and were treated almost like family members. In Halal/Kosher 'killing' a prayer is recited presumably telling the animal that he is being sacrificed for food for the family, in accordance with Gods will.
On Jesus, it could be said that the whole point of his life is that he came not exactly to utterly overturn Jewish Law, but to add to it and also to make clear that some parts were outmoded. He lived very much outside Jewish Law. He probably lived most of his adult life not even among Jews and Jewish Law. So in approaching the Temple and seeing moneychangers for the buying and selling of animals to 'sacrifice', he literally whipped them, 😮 apparently along with those selling the animals.
Not on-topic re Sharia Law, but your lines about Jesus shone out in neon to me!
V
I wonder if anybody here can help me out? I was just reading the past edition of News of The World, which goes into this subject a bit, and quotes the opinions of people in the street.
What's xenophobia ?
Coincidentally I was in Cambridge today when the Archbishop arrived to preside over a memorial service for the former Professor of Theology. The church was mobbed by press, both TV and print. I had the dubious honour of being interviewed by a reporter from the News of the World!!! I dread to think what he will do with what I said - for that reason I refused to give my name! I did use the word xenophobia but suggested that his readers might not know what it means! (How arrogant I am!)
More seriously, sorry to find myself replying to you again today, James, as I find your posts well-reasoned elsewhere. But - the British are responsible for all fundamentalist Islam, all over the world? Er, no. That's incredibly sweeping and would require at least a Journal article to prove or explain. IMO it's especially untrue as people choose in the here-and-now whether to be fundamentalist types or not. I can never fully, often not even partially, go along with the idea that "I am what I am and do all these things because 'x' happened, done by 'y', 100 / 200 / 300 years ago".
BTW all, I wish I'd kept the original text. But just after the hoo-hah began from what Rowan Williams said, one of the larger papers quoted him and pointed out that he's well-known for talking in a hard-to-fathom and 'intellectual' manner which is easily misunderstood. After reading that, some days back, I wasn't even sure that he'd said or meant what this thread is all about anyway?
V
I wonder if anybody here can help me out? I was just reading the past edition of News of The World, which goes into this subject a bit, and quotes the opinions of people in the street.
What's xenophobia ?
:rollaugh::rollaugh:
xxx
exactly how can what happened so many years ago affect now, it is now that we are all concerned about, and what did happened in our history makes hopefully better human beings.
I totally agree that if we all learnt lessons from history - then yes now we should now be better human beings. But alas it isn't so.
I'm not sure about James' link between Islamic fundamentalism and the British Empire and I don't want to go too off topic but the past certainly does affect us in the present day. Certainly what happened in Ireland over many centuries contributed big time to the recent troubles in Northern Ireland and the needless deaths of innocent people.
Definition
I wonder if anybody here can help me out?
What's xenophobia ?
V
Try [url]this page [/url]
Most common definition:
noun
an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange.
Barafundle:
Using that definition:
Islamophobia = an unreasonable fear or hatred of Muslims.
That means by definition, Islamophobia is a fantasy, an impossible concept.
However, I have heard an alternative definition:
Islamophobia = an unreasonable fear or hatred of upsetting Muslims.
Most non-Muslims suffer from that, with good reason.
Memory of various occasions when Muslims were upset, eg the Cartoon saga, Popes comments, Award to Salman Rushdie etc. ensure that.
Regards.
Prashna
1. But you seem to be making out that being Muslim is a nationality, like being Chinese.
2. It's not, it's a religion.
3. And Muslims come from all over the world. Yes, some of them are even white Britons.
4. So what's this about special demands for mosques? They don't demand mosques. They build them. In the same way that Christians build churches. Why is that special treatment?
5. I don't believe in faith schools, but given this Government's enthusiasm for them, it doesn't seem unreasonable for Muslims to want their own. That's not special treatment - that's equal treatment.
I had to switch on my PC in order to empty the faulty but still barely functional HDD.
My reply has to be brief
1. False. I never said so.
2 I do not accept that Islam is a valid religion, although I am aware that many humans do!
3. Never said or thought otherwise.
4. M's still need planning permission. Often strong local objection. AFAIK >>>1000 built so far in UK.
5. It is special treatment.
But it would need a whole thread to explain. You will have to work that one out yourself.
Hint: problem of scale, which I have already explained.
Regards.
Prashna
I do apologise everyone but I'm going to have to take time out from this thread: my brain has just turned to mush.
xxx
Try [url]this page [/url]
Thanks, Prashna. That helped to explain the word to me.
Just want place one quick thought on here before I log off :
"Compassion and tolerance are not a sign of weakness, but a sign of strength"
I
More seriously, sorry to find myself replying to you again today, James, as I find your posts well-reasoned elsewhere. But - the British are responsible for all fundamentalist Islam, all over the world? Er, no. That's incredibly sweeping and would require at least a Journal article to prove or explain. IMO it's especially untrue as people choose in the here-and-now whether to be fundamentalist types or not. I can never fully, often not even partially, go along with the idea that "I am what I am and do all these things because 'x' happened, done by 'y', 100 / 200 / 300 years ago".
Sorry, my earlier post didn't explain this properly.
Causality ('x' happened, done by 'y', 100 / 200 / 300 years ago - as you put it) is fact, whether you personally go along with it or not. That's not to say that you can't change it, you can - but first you need to know what happened and what the consequences were/are.
This is a long story, too long to explain in a forum post - so you'll need to do your own research. The gist is:
As Islam flourished, considerable cultural and scientific progress was made leading to the Golden Ages of Islam in Egypt, Iraq, Iran and India. These civilizations were NOT based on a literal interpretation of the Koran.
Koranic verses are difficult to understand even by the most learned native Arabic speaking persons in the world; a small change in stress changes the meaning of a verse completely. Like poetry, two persons hearing a verse will interpret it differently.
Islamic Law (Sharia, which means 'Way' or 'Path to the Water Source') as used in these civilizations was progressive and based on the sayings of the Prophets, the Koran, Analogy, and Centuries of debate. It incorporated non-muslim judicial systems such as Bedouin Law, Meccan Commercial Law, Roman Law and Jewish Law. The development of Islamic Law influenced other later laws including English Law. For example the British Law of Trust is considered to be derived from aspects of Islamic Law called waqf.
This allowed societies to develop. For example, at the time of the Mughals, Islamic India's Royal Courts were equivalent if not superior to the European Royal Courts in terms of the Laws, the Culture, Philosophy, Religious Beliefs and general sophistication of the people.
The British, for reasons unknown, imposed the Whabi House of Saud in Saudi Arabia, when they took over from the Ottoman Empire following the exploits of Lawrence of Arabia and the decline of the Turkish Ottoman Empire. This was the birth of Islamic Fundamentalism.
Islam has two traditions - the Sunni and the Shiite. Both have the same beliefs, but differ in minor, nonreligious matters to do with the accession to the Caliphate following the death of the Prophet.
Whabism though is completely different. It is based on the idiotic views of an Abdul Wahab (1703-1792), who wanted all Islamic cultural progress to be reversed back to the 5th Century, back to the fundamentals as per his interpretations of the Koran.
No one in Saudi or elsewhere took this Whab fellow seriously and Whabism had no followers until the British imposed Whabi rule on the Saudi people.
Whabists called for a literal interpretation of the Koran, particularly of certain verses only - the ones that could be interpreted as inciting hatred or could be used as excuses to justify female repression or wars against Christians and Jews.
Whabist concept of Sharia is about chopping peoples limbs off that you don't like or who don't agree with you.
With the Arab Israeli wars, and the rise in the price of oil in the 70's there was a huge influx of dollars into the Saudi Kingdom. Much of this money was used for global Islamic religious education or indoctrination of societies that were socially well advanced, but poor. This led to the imposition of whabism onto the entire Islamic world, and the Whabi concept of Sharia, which has nothing to do with the Sharia that has been practiced in traditional Islam.
Today the entire Islamic world has Whabi extremists ruling them - mullahs, educated in Whabism decide who does what, what is right and what is wrong. Women are banned from appearing in public places, unless covered in bags from head to toe. All forms of mixed sex dance, massage and such pleasurable pursuits are banned - often with serious consequences, including the death penalty.
The modern Whabi mullahs are much like the Catholic missionaries of old, who believe that it is there purpose in life to impose sexual repressions and other hardships on the public.
Yes James there is causality.
Things in the past do have an influence on how we are in the present but for something so long ago in history you cannot say that all of the present day situations exist because of that past. People have choices and they have had plenty of time to make the choice to change things if they weren't happy with it.
So the British Empire may have had a profound impact on the world in the past, but people have every choice to change that if they want and indeed they have. The present situations of the world cannot be blamed entirely on the past British Empire. To say such is just ludicrous.
Love and Reiki Hugs
Thanks for the explanation of Whabism, James. Very enlightening. It does explain a lot.
Islamophobia = an unreasonable fear or hatred of Muslims.
That means by definition, Islamophobia is a fantasy, an impossible concept.
Are you saying here with this emphasis, Prashna, that there is no such thing as an unreasonable fear or hatred of Muslims?! I hope I'm mistaking the meaning and you'll put me right.