how often do we have to bend over backwards for those who are guests in our country
The Muslims that these laws would apply to are British citizens.
If nothing else, topics like these do expose the disturbing amount of xenophobia buried not very deeply under the surface of our society. Some of the comments I've read on this have been shocking.
This is what the fuss is about (From the BBC again)...
What kind of Sharia are we talking about in the UK?
The key issues are family law, finance and business. In practice many Muslims do turn to Sharia guidance for many of these day-to-day matters, particularly family disputes.
And how does this work in practice?
Muslims are increasingly looking to the example of Jewish communities which have long-established religious community courts.
These "courts" are legally recognised in English law as a means for warring parties to agree to arbitration. The law sees this as a practical way of helping people to resolve their differences in their own way, without clogging up the local courts.
That's all.
Thank you Prashna, I will have a look at the link later this evening xx
Hi Barafundle,
I can see where you are coming from when you end your post with the words 'that's all' but will it be, eventually? I am with you on the xenephiopia thing BUT is allowing some aspects of Sharia Law going to lead to them wanting the lot in future? The people who want this law might just view this as a step in the right direction?
Love and Peace
Rebecca xxxxx
I was surprised (and a little shocked) to learn that multiple wives is permitted in this country for Muslims. (This is what I think I heard on Question Time last night and I'd forgotten about it until I read crystal rose's post above. Is this true? Surely not - it's bigamy to have more than one wife. The Mormons had to promise to stop in the US; I can't believe British Muslims can have multiple wives..... Someone tell me the truth, please.
edit to say that, also from crystal rose's post:
how often do we have to bend over backwards for those who are guests in our country yes guests
is TOTALLY wrong. We are talking about people who are British - not guests at all. (Everyone should understand that when we speak about Muslims, it doesn't necessarily mean immigrants, asylum seekers etc. Many Muslims are born here, belong here, this is their country etc.)
Note to Barafundle: have you only just realised what a xenophobic time and country we are incarnated in. But it was probably ever thus, wherever and whenever you are. Isn't this what we're trying to rise above?
xx
Halal Ritual slaughter links
Thank you Prashna, I will have a look at the link later this evening xx
BUT is allowing some aspects of Sharia Law going to lead to them wanting the lot in future? The people who want this law might just view this as a step in the right direction?
Love and Peace
Rebecca xxxxx
Hi Becky,
Here are some links on Islamic ritual slaughter that provide some info:
From the BBC [url]Halal and kosher slaughter must end.[/url]
Excerpt:
The Farm Animal Welfare Council (FAWC), which advises the government on how to avoid cruelty to livestock, says the way Kosher and Halal meat is produced causes severe suffering to animals
From Viva, [DLMURL="http://www.viva.org.uk/campaigns/ritual_slaughter/goingforthekill2.htm"]The Reality of Religious Slaughter[/DLMURL]
one excerpt of many:
Steve
"I work in a big metropolitan slaughterhouse where they do kosher slaughter and I've seen animals still trying to get up two minutes after they're cut and released from the crush. There is no way they die instantly - ever.
"My experience of Halal is even worse. The slaughterers often come in with knives that are so blunt they're like bread saws. They saw away at the animal's throat and haven't got a clue if they're severing the arteries or not. ...
From [DLMURL="http://my.telegraph.co.uk/elgar1857/november_2007/halal_meat.htm"]the Telegraph "Reality of religious slaughter"[/DLMURL]
Excerpt
The animal is hung from the ceiling, either by a mechanical device or a chain. It's bones are sometimes fractured in the process. It is not given anything to relieve it's forthcoming pain and is not stunned, the animals throat is slit with a single hand held cut while a muslim holy man recites a blessing. It is dumped on the ground where it is left to bleed to death, often the animal will stumble around in agony trying to stand on the blood and excrement covered floor until finally finding
peace after several minutes.
From my experience, I believe you are correct. IMHO, this will not be the end but simply another step in the desired direction!
Regards.
Prashna
I'm sorry, Prashna, but I really think this is somewhat :offtopic:
xx
Hi Sunanda, I am not saying you are right or wrong to say Prashna is off topic but can I ask why you say that? If treating animals in this way is part of Sharia Law (is it? I don't know, bit thick and started this thread to learn about it) then why say this.
But I do think that if the way they treat animals is part of Sharia Law then we don't have much room to talk after I watched it on the news the other night about how we buy cheaper chickens from Tesco's etc that have been so over fed to gain weight they can't even walk and look so tormented but maybe this is off topic.
Love and Angel Hugs
Becky XX
Note to Barafundle: have you only just realised what a xenophobic time and country we are incarnated in.
No. I just regret that some of us feel so insecure we need to think this way. Ho hum.
From the BBC..
The Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) said it was grateful for the Archbishop's "thoughtful intervention" on the discussion of the place of Islam and Muslims in modern Britain.
A spokesman said: "The MCB observes, with some sadness, the hysterical misrepresentations of his speech which serves only to drive a wedge between British people."
The Bishop of Hulme, the Rt Rev Stephen Lowe, said he was dismayed at the "knee-jerk" reaction to Dr Williams' comments.
"We have probably one of the greatest and the brightest Archbishops of Canterbury we have had for many a long day," he told BBC Radio 4.
"He is undoubtedly one of the finest minds of this nation.
"The way he has been ridiculed, lampooned and treated by some people and indeed some of the media within this process, is quite disgraceful."
N.B. Certain provisions of Sharia are already recognised under British law.
Hi Sunanda, I am not saying you are right or wrong to say Prashna is off topic but can I ask why you say that? If treating animals in this way is part of Sharia Law ....
Becky XX
Thank you, Becky, for your support.
As far as I understand Sharia Law, ritual slaughter of animals using halal techniques is very much part of Sharia Law. And therefore my post IMO, was not off-topic at all.
I look to Sunanda for confirmation that halal slaughter is not part of Sharia Law.
BTW, I am NOT arguing one way or the other whether ritual slaughter should be abolished; merely pointing out that this is part of Sharia Law and British Law WAS changed relatively recently to accommodate Islamic requirements.
Regards.
Prashna
Personally I don’t know whether Sharia law should have some sort of official status in this country – although some cultural aspects of Islam are already allowed. I can see good/bad points in both scenarios (whether Sharia is allowed or not).
I just want to make a few points though:
1. I believe that the media is stirring up trouble again by not taking a more balanced view of things and have jumped on this bandwagon without wanting to have a serious debate about it. The media generally are keen to take things out of context just to cause trouble.
2. The Archbishop of Canterbury is perhaps foolish to discuss another religion’s issues - although he is at liberty to say what he likes. I don’t think he has his finger on the pulse of popular opinion and therefore appears shocked by the general outrage at what he has said.
3. Although this is slightly off topic – I feel that the British judicial system is far from perfect and this leads some people to seek other forms of justice/retribution. Within the British system the perpetrators of a crime/problem (whether this is rape, murder, theft, family issues, housing issues) more often than not receive far more “justice” than the victims of these crimes/problems. This can lead to severe depression and even suicide for those who have to pick up the pieces of their shattered lives. I’m talking here about a whole variety of issues here – not just murder but things like access to children after a divorce. Perhaps if the British court system was “fairer” – then there may be less of a calling for other forms of justice.
4. The hypocrisy of the media by calling Sharia law barbaric. Not so long ago in the UK, corporal and capital punishment were legal (and no – I don’t want to open the debate on this one). Back in Victorian times (which wasn’t so long ago – my grandparents were born at the end of the Victorian era) there were many abuses of human rights which would be completely unacceptable to us today. Of course even further back we had beheadings/burnings, public floggings and so on. These didn’t take place thousands of years ago but only hundreds of years ago. Even the initiator of the Church of England beheaded 2 of his wives. Nowadays we don’t have corporal or capital punishments but yet we have a situation where law abiding people suffer at the hands of the lawless (see my previous point). I’m not making a point about corporal or capital punishment or being pro/anti Sharia but I just find it nauseating that some people denounce Sharia as barbaric and yet take the sanctimonious and wrong view that we here are somehow “civilised”.
The idea that someone could buy a gun in America and then go mental the next day and the possibility that you could, through bad luck, end up being blamed for some terrible crime and end up on death row are both reasons why I won't move to America. I don't like it so I live somewhere else.
Quite simple, really.
I can see where you are coming from when you end your post with the words 'that's all' but will it be, eventually? I am with you on the xenephiopia thing BUT is allowing some aspects of Sharia Law going to lead to them wanting the lot in future? The people who want this law might just view this as a step in the right direction?
Love and Peace
Rebecca xxxxx
Hi Barafundle and Sunanda,
I am somewhat disturbed by your use of the term "xenophobia" in this thread. If you are suggesting that some posters on this thread are xenophobic, then that is a serious allegation. If either or both of you have placed me in that category, would you please state why?
Sunanda,
you implied that my referring to Islamic ritual slaughter was off-topic. I would like you to re-consider that statement.
For your benefit I have quoted Becky's post above.
You can see that she expressed concerns as follows:
"the words 'that's all' but will it be, eventually? I am with you on the xenephiopia thing BUT is allowing some aspects of Sharia Law going to lead to them wanting the lot in future? "
Now, I do not know, nor do you, how far the Muslims wish to push the adoption of sharia in UK!
However, if they did wish greater and greater adoption, it would be pragmatic of them to push it a little bit at a time; would it not?
Logically, I can see no fault with that argument! If you can please advise me so that I can correct my logical error!
My point was simply this:
About 12-15 years ago they achieved a significant change in British Law to allow Islamic ritual slaughter in British abattoirs.
Now they want a bit more.
Therefore, it indicates a progression in adoption of sharia in UK.
That is precisely what Becky was concerned about!
Therefore my citation of the adoption of Islamic ritual slaughter far from being off-topic is very much on-topic!
Regards.
Prashna
This is my arguement. Sharia Law will not be fair.
reason 1
United Kingdom has fought for womens equal rights on many different issues for many different. Throughout world. Where shatra law do not reconise woman as much as the UK law.
reason 2
what do you think companies will do. The UK law recognise equal oportunities for both woman & men. Imagine the impact it would have. Example sorry shatra law states I would need employ men before women. That would mean that woman rights they have fought for so many years will just be removed.
Reason 3
Totally understand multi cultured society. What I cannot understand is, when people come to the UK they come to work, learn. The people should be aware of the law of the land & these are created under queen & country and should not be changed for anybody. We would not goto another country & request the laws to change for the minotity now would we.
Reason 4
The UK have always have had a multi cultured country for at least 100 years. So why should it be changed now?
Hi Barafundle and Sunanda,
I am somewhat disturbed by your use of the term "xenophobia" in this thread. If you are suggesting that some posters on this thread are xenophobic, then that is a serious allegation. If either or both of you have placed me in that category, would you please state why?
Not thinking of you as xenophobic, Prashna. I was prompted to use that term because of the post referring to 'guests having to abide by our laws'. The people who might want to take advantage of this system of arbitration are British citizens, not 'guests'.
It just put me in mind of some of the hysterical comments I've been reading in the wake of the archbishop's comments. Some people are calling for his resignation over this!
Therefore my citation of the adoption of Islamic ritual slaughter far from being off-topic is very much on-topic!
Don't know about being off topic or not, but I'm shocked by our usual, equally horrific non-Islamic slaughter practices.