Left Oppose Teaching Patriotism in Schools

The report states that British History is 'morally ambiguous' and therefore shouldn't form a basis for fostering national identity.

:oIt will come as no surprise to you, Mark, when I say that I totally agree with this statement. And in general, support the view of the Institute of Education in this regard, though I have to admit I am going only on your post, not having had time yet to read the links.

xxx

Hi Sunanda,
no I'm not surprised that you would agree with the views of the IofE on this issue. I too have often made the point that the education establishment and the country as a whole needs to adopt a truthful and realistic appraisal of British history.

The Left are always emphasising the negative aspects of the Empire and our relationships with other nations and peoples. The Right play down any controversy and emphasise the triumphs. The truth is somewhere in between and surely it is this that we should identify with.

Isn't being British what binds us together as a people? These attitudes simply corall Britishness among White, Anglo-saxons. It denies any other ethnicity the right to be British, all in the name of the Left's version of some future multicultural paradise where the very idea of Britain is abolished.

Dunkirk

to my mind citizenship is not the same as teaching history

it is one thing to encourage to people to feel loyalty and pride in the country wether it be their place of birth or the country that they have chosen to live in but I dont agree that it should be tied up in history

looking back over the years some dreadful things were done in the name of the British Empire and doesnt alway fill me with pride. I think it should be taught as events happen without glossing over things but I dont think history should necessarily tie in with citezenship

I totally agree with this statement from the IoE (first link below)

It says students must decide for themselves how they feel about their country.

A patriot is someone who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/patriot?view=uk

One of the things I would support about Britain is that we have freedom of thought and, to some extent, freedom of speech.

So teach facts and allow students to make up their own mind how they feel about those facts.

For me this has nothing to do with race or ancestry. Allowing all to make up their own mind crosses any divides in the multi cultural society in which we live.

Isn't being British what binds us together as a people? These attitudes simply corall Britishness among White, Anglo-saxons. It denies any other ethnicity the right to be British, all in the name of the Left's version of some future multicultural paradise where the very idea of Britain is abolished.

For me the attitude of allowing people to make up their own mind having been taught facts is more inclusive in a multi cultural society. 'Coralling Britishness' is more likely to happen if someone teaches history mixed with patriotism surely?

I don't see how this denies ethnicities other than white British the right to be British? Nor do I see that there is anything wrong with a multi cultural paradise.

Isn't being British what binds us together as a people?

Actually my view is that being people binds us together as people. (Not a people - to me that smacks of being the chosen race.) I think we're all in this together, whatever place we happen to be born in. A colleague of mine was ranting today because his daughter was taken on a school trip to visit a mosque. Personally I can't see anything wrong with this. He said that the Muslim kids refuse to visit a church but I've seen loads and loads of Muslim schoolkids inside St Pauls Cathedral on field trips.

Hi Motuki,

It says students must decide for themselves how they feel about their country.

I wouldn't disagree that school pupils should be able to decide for themselves how they feel about their country. What I don't agree with is that patriotism should be treated as a controversial issue.

When the issue of the environment is taught in schools the idea that pupils should make their own mind up isn't advanced with quite as much insistence. Also it isn't an issue that is considered controversial.

Surely schools aren't there just to teach facts. Isn't school where the next generation learns how to adapt to the society they live in? Doesn't the idea that citizenship should be taught come from such an expectation?

What exactly would be so wrong with British schools playing their part in fostering a British identity and passing on British values.

The fact that we have freedom of thought and freedom of speech ( increasingly being eroded because of political correctness ) is due to events that occurred in our history and how British people have responded to those events. Are these not values that should be vigorously supported and shouldn't we be prepared to defend them?

People from all over the World have already made up their minds because they come to live in this country in order to share in that identity and to live by our values. I think they expect those values to be passed on by institutions such as schools.

If we accept that people migrate here to become British citizens then there needs to be a system of shared values and laws that people can't simply make their minds up to adopt or ignore.

The government has reassessed its position vis a vis multiculturalism and have come to the conclusion that it has in many cases been a barrier to social cohesion. There are British Asian communities in a number of Northern towns that have little or no contact with their White British neighbours.

There is very little integration and very few genuinely mixed neighbourhoods. Yet the problems faced by both communities are the problems of urban living; unemployment, poverty, lack of resources, lack of facilities.

Surely the job of the political Left would be to unite these communities as one voice to fight for resources and facilities. The Left's multicultural approach ensures that each community remains separate and resentment is fostered among them both.

Dunkirk.

Sunanda,

I fail to see how the term a people can imply any allusion to the 'chosen race' when Britain as a people is made up of many different races and ethnicities.

I fail to see how the term a people can imply any allusion to the 'chosen race' when Britain as a people is made up of many different races and ethnicities.

Ok, the reference to a chosen race was inappropriate but my point is that we need to be thinking globally not nationally. Look what's happening in other parts of the world where they're breaking down even from nationalism to tribalism - bloody warfare! This is promoted by the concept 'we are different from them. We are better than they are. We deserve to live and they deserve to die.' I don't believe we should be talking about differences but similarities, in that we are all human beings.
And (I've probably said this before), I just really truly honestly don't feel any pride in what this country is now and what it has been in the past. But more than that, I don't see any need to feel pride in my country. That's just the way it is. You are more than welcome to feel proud to be British - I just don't get it, that's all.

xx

Hi Sunanda,

Look what's happening in other parts of the world where they're breaking down even from nationalism to tribalism - bloody warfare! This is promoted by the concept 'we are different from them. We are better than they are. We deserve to live and they deserve to die.' I don't believe we should be talking about differences but similarities, in that we are all human beings.

I do think that in many ways 'we' as in Britain are better than the majority of the rest of the World. That's because we live in a liberty loving country based on the rule of Law.

Our ancient liberties were hard won during periods of our history when the common people had to fight against those who sought to oppress them. These are liberties that we should be proud of and that we should defend.

Why do people leave African countries to come to Britain? Perhaps it's because these are war torn hell-holes where law and order simply doesn't exist.

Why do we have large numbers of Turkish immigrants here? Probably because people know that their children will have a better life here, be better educated and they will have the protection of the law in a way they wouldn't have in their former country. At least that's how my neighbour explained it to me.

I for one am greatful that I live in a country that is different from much of the rest of the World and I certainly wouldn't want to be similar to anywhere were there is any sort of secular or religious dictatorship. I wouldn't want to share the values of anywhere where the legal system acted as an arm of the state on behalf of some wealthy elite.

Some people that live in this country often don't know when they are well off and are prepared to trade their values and heritage for some amorphous vision of a globalised future. I don't believe anyone would benefit from it apart from multinational corporations.

Are British values so repugnant that they shouldn't be passed on to the next generation? Ask my Turkish neighbours, they seem quite keen on them.

Dunkirk

I for one am greatful that I live in a country that is different from much of the rest of the World and I certainly wouldn't want to be similar to anywhere were there is any sort of secular or religious dictatorship. I wouldn't want to share the values of anywhere where the legal system acted as an arm of the state on behalf of some wealthy elite.

I think we're somewhat at cross purposes here, Mark. I'm not talking about countries but about people. You make a lot of very good points and I'm also sure that any minute now Venetian is going to come in to remind me of his POV, which is that countries each have their own karma and that it is important to love one's country. But in my inner being I don't buy into this. And I'm not talking about globalisation per se which, you're absolutely right, would benefit the fat cats. I just have this naive belief that all people are equal and entitled to the same basic rights: food, shelter, safety, the right to work, justice etc.

Some people that live in this country often don't know when they are well off and are prepared to trade their values and heritage for some amorphous vision of a globalised future.

I'm not sure whether you mean me specifically by this statement. I think it's a bit woolly to tell the truth. How are people trading their values and heritage etc? For a start, values and heritage don't necessarily go together.

Anyway, we've been here before many times. You're proud to be British. I'm not. I don't believe patriotism should be taught in schools. You do. End of.

xxx

In being multicultural and a multiracial land it does not deny us the right to be patriotic and British whatever our background. Our history is the foundation of our land now where we do have freedom of speech and where there may be a mosque on one street and a Christian church on the next. In referring to Britain as a people it is not referring to them as a race or culture but as a collective that acknowledges the history that affords the benefits of the lifestyle choices they have today. It should be celebrated or at least allow those who wish to to celebrate it to do so without them living in fear of someone asking them to take their union flag down in case if offends someone!!!

Lets get some identity back!

How are people trading their values and heritage etc? For a start, values and heritage don't necessarily go together.

Doesn't one generation sort of inherit values from the previous generation so doesn't the word heritage and inherit have the same etymology?

I'm not saying that as people we are any better than any other people. Anyone from anywhere who migrates here to be a British citizen is as good as any other British citizen, where ever they come from.

Were the Left to have their way then British values would be suppressed in favour of anything that wasn't British. Our rights and liberties would be suppressed with them.

When Poland was under the communists anything that represented Polish values, culture and heritage was suppressed. This was done for the same sort of reasons of nationalism leading to fascism and war.

Polish parents would organise clandestine classes in Polish history and culture in order to keep their heritage alive. Is that what we want for our country?

Dunkirk.

You make a lot of very good points and I'm also sure that any minute now Venetian is going to come in to remind me of his POV, which is that countries each have their own karma and that it is important to love one's country.

Well, I don't need to now, do I. 🙂

I see both points of view, but you're not too different from each other's, albeit in the end whatever difference there is, is important. Ultimately and primarily, I'm sure we all identify with all people, wherever they may be, and first and foremost consider ourselves as being part of humanity at large. But how does that 'humanity' actually work, or how is it supposed to function? There must be billions of starlings in the world, but as a species they function well and in a way that works, practically, within Nature, by being part of a flock (or whatever it's called in those huge numbers together in formation). It seems that Nature knows that this is how various species survive and flourish best, or maybe the only way they can. And esoterically such a group such as a shoal of fish, a pride of lions, etc., etc., are deemed to have a group soul.

In other words, all these various species aren't just scattered exactly evenly around the earth, nor do they journey freely all over the place to mingle such as ants swapping nests every few days.

No analogy is perfect as of course there should be free movement, but we might see the requirement for citizenship as being one that says, "This nation today and in the recent past has worked far better than Thailand, Sierra Leone, Argentina, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc. So let's identify and share what makes this so with those entering in."

Simple examples of this would include the huge rise in East European immigrants, and perhaps other immigrants, found driving without having passed any test that the UK would recognise or could - because haphazard driving and many crashes is the norm where they come from. (Read that recently, no link known.) That's just an example. We are all pretty fed up with many aspects of this nation, but that IMO is because we seek to preserve something inherently very good and worth preserving, which has values you don't necessarily find in other parts of the world. So what's good here can't be preserved if immigrants come in, embodying any values of behaviour, of whatever kind, that may be demonstably inferior even to the point of not being perfectly law-abiding. Let's transmute those things and give them the gift of what we have. Take away national boundaries and also national traits, and without there then being nations per se at all, we are reduced to a denominator which, if you just look at one nation after another, is on average below that which we have, and isn't some wonderful dream of a New Age global village - not in reality.

We don't have to do away with borders and national identity in order for the world to rise collectively into a better place. That's like thinking that a group or city of individuals can all rise spiritually together if you somehow take away their individuality and somehow merge them into one hive. It doesn't work, because individuals need to work out their own lives and rise spiritually, morally, and in any other way at their own pace. If an individual is individual, he/she can rise when ready and willing, and isn't held back by those around who want to stay as they are or become worse. Same with nations.

V

Were the Left to have their way then British values would be suppressed in favour of anything that wasn't British. Our rights and liberties would be suppressed with them.

But surely the values of the British Left are British values too? The question is: if we are to teach British values, whose values are we to teach? Yours? Sunanda's? Mine?

And the other big question is: what IS patriotism? Is it waving a flag when the Queen is driven past? Is it supporting England (or Scotland, or Wales) in sporting events? Is it being proud of the fact that we in Britain don't have patriotism rammed down our throats? Is it about tolerance - or intolerance?

The trouble with patriotism is that it can mean many different things. I certainly wouldn't be happy, for example, if the BNP's idea of patriotism was taught in schools. But they would probably say they stand up for British values.

Hi Supersub,
as ever some interesting and thought provoking arguements:-

But surely the values of the British Left are British values too?

I think it's important not to confuse the British Labour Movement with the Left. Trade Unions have been a very British institution and the British sense of fair play has sustained them. The Tolpuddle Martyrs are well known to any student of British history.

The Left of the movement, on the other hand was affiliated to a number of international organisations including the commintern. The Communist Party was during the cold war no more than an agent of Soviet foreign policy.

I therefore don't think it's true to say that the values of the (British) Left are British values because this is the source of the assault on Britishness that has occurred since the 1960's.

You may well ask why it is that the modern Left don't nowadays actually bother to organise the British Working-Class. Surely it isn't because they have solved all their problems for them.

Why is it that the modern Left is now so interested in diversity politics, gender issues, sexual politics and multiculturalism? All the issues that divide working-class people but nothing that actually unites them around their common interests.

The question is: if we are to teach British values, whose values are we to teach? Yours? Sunanda's? Mine?

Sunanda makes it quite clear that she rejects any idea of loyalty to this country, so they wouldn't be Sunanda's values would they?

The British values that I support I would have thought have been made fairly clear from the posts I have made in this particular thread.

I don't know what your values are Nick. From your post we all know what you are against but you don't really say what it is you are for.

And the other big question is: what IS patriotism?

This is George Orwell's definition:-
'devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force upon other people'

Is it waving a flag when the Queen is driven past?

Is there anything wrong with doing this? In this country I can be opposed to the war in Iraq, for example, and yet still remain loyal to the Crown. In America if I criticise the war I oppose the President, the government and the country. There isn't an embodiment of the state in America that isn't political, there is over here.

Is it supporting England (or Scotland, or Wales) in sporting events?

Even Sunanda supports England

Is it being proud of the fact that we in Britain don't have patriotism rammed down our throats?

Or has the Left's campaign against Britishness been so successful that we are embarrassed to be patriotic. No one wants to be compared with Alf Garnet do they?

Is it about tolerance - or intolerance?

I thought we were World famous for our tolerance

The trouble with patriotism is that it can mean many different things. I certainly wouldn't be happy, for example, if the BNP's idea of patriotism was taught in schools. But they would probably say they stand up for British values.

Why is it that anyone who expresses patriotism gets confronted with the inevitable vailed accusation of being some sort of fascist? The BNP doesn't represent British values, it doesn't represent tolerance, liberty, fair play, or any value associated with Britishness.

The idea that schools should foster a sense of shared values and identity is to bring people together not divide us. Just because the BNP claim to be patriotic and claim to have some sort of monopoly on it shouldn't mean that the rest of us have to avoid it.

Dunkirk