I wonder if anyone else on HP in Britain saw the documentary of this title by Jon Snow last night? (I thought it fits better here than under Islam or Reviews.) It should more accurately maybe (?) have been called "What British Muslims Want".
It was the most exhaustive survey of Muslim opinion conducted for 12 years - it takes TV to do this, mind you, when the government fail to do so.
I know of course that there are very moderate and "anglicised" Muslims, including one or two on HP itself. I respect them enormously, and one of the most influential people in my whole life was an amazing young Imam.
But some concrete findings were very disturbing....
Chiefly there has been incomprehension here about why young, presumably Westernised Muslims, would become terrorists. The docu explained all that - though it is still hard to understand. Young Muslims born here are far more radical and fundamentalist than their parents - and these appear to be true individual decisions, not due to brainwahing by any Imams. Their parent may have been very anglicised - their children are not. Why? Is it something to do with the culture or the Q'uran? The radicals are the children - not the parents who emigrated here.
One third of Brit Muslims don't like freedom of speech, would prefer it didn't exist, would prefer a fundamentalist Muslim government to democracy - and wish that Britain had such!
Young Muslims are becoming more and more alienated (in general, as a trend - not applied to all individuals of course) from our way of life - they are becoming more alienated, not at all integrated. Even many who were integrated are moving out into fundamentalist Islam. The question of "why?" is the one thing the docu didn't really touch IMO.
Now, many of these people are religious and sincere. But they don't want democracy and they don't want our way of life. Thing is, this sharply contrasts with all other ethnic minorities who do become somewhat anglicised over time: I mean, look at your good ol' essential and lovable Hindu corner shop owner! So whereas other minorities are becoming part of the main social fabric, objective surveys have a third of Muslims moving progressively away. They want an end to democracy. Yes - one has to ask - why don't they just get their (warning: PC-ness ends here in fact for a line or so!) EU passports, catch a plane, and go to a land where petty theft ends in your arm being cut off? They are all free to do so.
Britain will never give them the Muslim government they desire, so they will always be frustrated about that.
Sex outside of marriage is banned in Islam, right? So these people shun Western values, yes? OK ... but in their sexual frustration they have gotten more than one daughter of my friends preggy and then disappeared off the face of the Earth.... hypocrisy.
As Jon Snow concluded, it's a recipe for strife. I hope these people who are just about a minority among their own people will start to see sense in the end.
Meanwhile, my best wishes to other Brit Muslims, and in their founding of a body to truly represent them in a democratic way - for Brit Muslims don't yet have this.
Edit to add: the third of hard-line Muslims interviewed who don't like our way of life were also utterly dismissive of homosexuality. Put aside the "rights or wrongs" of gayness - the fact is that up to 10 percent of people are such. The Muslims see this as a Western thing. I've news for them. It's genetic, and more than once I've had the 'come on' from a Muslim in Muslim countries (I'm straight!). So what do they say to that, and what they do say is that they should all be 'punished'. I'm really sorry, but to me this is sounding so very primitive.... Punished how? And why? And will they accept that many of themselves are in fact gay? [:-]
Venetian
RE: What Muslims Want
I didn't actually see that program although I would be interested to watch the repeat. I have seen so many cases of what you are saying, children being more strict than their parents. It is not new, it happened with the children of those who were young during the 60s and enjoyed free love and drugs.
I have seen this in my muslim friends here in Britain. A common explanation for this is that while back in the old country you are one among many and take as granted many things as they are everyday things, for instance I find Catholics in Britain are much more strict and set in their ways that in Spain or Italy for instance. In this country these young muslims may feel the presure of being different, and things that they would taken for granted back in Pakistan or Morocco like prayer times, etc are not the rule here. The parents may have had other reasons to come to Europe, improving their lives, dream of independence for instance. These projects probably took most of their time and energy, while their children will have probably more time and energy to think about other aspects of life.
I do find in general huge differences among muslims. British muslims are mainly from a Pakistani origin, their background is influenced not only by religion but by the culture and history of the Indian subcontinent, while most of the muslims in mainland Europe are from a North African origin, their culture is different. Of the people I know personally I find Moroccans and Algerians much more open and easy to talk to about culture and religion in general than people from a Pakistani origin. Obviously this is only a handful of people.
We mustn't forget either that there are different currents in the muslim faith. I guess we could compare with having different churches withing the Christian faith. I have heard friends who were muslims from the Magreb slagging off muslims from Pakistani origins saying that they were not real muslims. So, I guess religion doesn't unite countries after all.
RE: What Muslims Want
not being British I know I will not have the same eye on the situation as Brit HP posters...and some of my opinions may not be welcome anyway.
but here are some of the things I thought while watching the doc last night:
I did not like the way it was directed, with over-simplification of many important issues (the main one: the war in Irak: Britain's prime role in it and the 07/07 London bombings) and the sensationalist title and interviews....
I could see how just the title was designed to scare the hell out of British people with the thought the "the evil within us". nothing healthy can come out of this.
To be honest, such title and commentaries would have not been alllowed in some other european countries for fear of uprising....nevermind.
The issue is serious, and complicated.
B. M don't just want to overtake british governement to put in place some extremist hellish dictator!
It is not as simple,HOWEVER I am afraid the reality seems that due to many factors, they have come to dream of a muslim Britain. A documentary in France, years ago, described that muslims in Britain had rights of speech they would not have elsewhere (preaching religious extremism in Hyde Park's outdoor debates) and apparently (now this might be all rumors) they did expressintent to make Britain the 1st muslim state and then take over Europe from that corner!
France has seen explicit clashes with arab/muslims not long ago, and every city was burning at night for 3 monthsand many people had their cars burnt....Now I wonder if a clear anddramatic uprising like that (they were planning to strike Paris' centre: the Champs Elysees and destroy it) is not healthier than a long resentment held under the surface because of the country's traditional reluctance (since Margaret Tatcher's laws) to get down in the streets and show discord....I can hear many of you will disagree, but in general, Britain - -compared with France, Spain or Ukraine! - is not fond of massive confrontation with the government. Anyway, the French governement had to stop everything (as with what always happens when there's a major demonstration) and think about the social inequalities and integration problems. because let's be honest, there have beenbig inequalities.
yes, a portion (cant say wether they're minority or majority) of B.M want to change this country, but what really bugged me was the angle of the "documentary". to me it just added oil to the fire. Where were the enquiries into social disparity, the research into the living conditions of the muslim population, a real social study,the discrimination they face at work...and socially...? I am not pleading for them, just saying it wasn't exactly a fairly balanceddocumentary.
What is ironic is that in Europe Britain has always seen itelf as a model of integration with no major riots and lots of policies on race equality....but I feel on the grounds, in reality, there is NO integration.
For example, whatever city you live in, if there's a quarter where black people live in, you can be sure the wealthy rich live at the opposite corner and never cross that area. Someone from Bristol's council said to me last year about the notourious Easton "the Council lets all the gang shooting and trouble overspill and does not want to control it. It only hopes it won't overspill too much and reach Clifton." (Clifton being the equivalent to Chelsea).
Also, to make matters worse, and something completely lacking from the documentary, is the ability to look at british society objectively. you don't need to be a muslim dressed in a white robe and with a long beard, nor to be hindu to find the traditional drunkeness and degenerescence in the average English town 'streets on saturday night off-putting. Many British people just avoid going out at all on week end nights because of that. And any tourist or foreigner has his/her first shock when discovering that the "hookers" district is in
RE: What Muslims Want
Tortu brings back another point:
when you live in a society which is not "your" society (reflecting your values, where you come from, etc) it is a hard-to-resist-pull (and understandable) to want to construct your identity by searching for your roots. And especially if, in the case of B. Muslims, you feel so different intellectually/culturally anyway.
A bit like in the episode - if anyone watched that: Black Books comedy series - where Fran is so excited when finding she has "roots" in London because she has found that some distant relatives from Azerbijang live in Londonm too!
RE: What Muslims Want
I think you have said many things about the UK which are so very sadly true Fadette. UK 'culture' to me seems to be more of the Petrie dish kind and not what it could be, and I hate to think what the 'hookers' are doing to themselves and how long they would survive.
Many years ago now the Muslim community did attempt a Parliament of their own with the full intention of disregarding the legal one, it didn't last long.
I do so agree we are very lethargic about allowing things to happen here and not protesting at all, let alone vigorously,perhaps as a result of being insular by geography and nurture? And the attempts to invade us were successfully fended off, on the whole, apart from those Normans....
But those were from without, the Muslim takeover would be from within, so perhaps less complacency then?
But as Venetian said, perhaps the younger protesting Muslims might like to vote with their feet and leave?
Can you honestly see the average Anglo SaxonBrit attending any Friday prayers?, and isn't Mecca just an entertainmentchain?
RE: What Muslims Want
Many points there by Fadette, and I am hardly qualified to reply to most. It's a controversial thread and I began it as there's much I don't understand here, so I don't have the answers, but many questions.
I'm particularly unclear about why many young Muslims are becoming fundamentalist - whereas as the docu showed, their parents actually came here, embraced Britain, and wore suits and skirts! Why is Islam becoming a race apart as an ethnicminority in many cases whereas - I largely disagree about other ethnic minorities, Fadette - I think others are prrogressively integrated and also accepted here. "Going out for an Indian" is part of our culture now, almost a Brit thing, but not "going out for a Muslim"! 😮
I think the question still remains: if this large minority (within Islam)of Muslims desire Britain to be a fundy Muslim state, lacking democracy, and with harsh punishments for all kinds of things according to Sharia law(not uniquely Britian, for globally they want all nations to be Muslim) - they just ain't gonna get it, right? So is it not a recipe for confrontation between democratic peoples (inclding democracy-loving Muslims) and these others?
V
RE: What Muslims Want
P.S. Social and economic inequality is no excuse at all IMO. You make of life what you will. Hindus are more financially accomplished in life than the average person in this nation, from surveys. I'd say it's the lack of integration that keeps any minority group out of the loop and finding it difficult to get onto the successful financial ladder, as you just aren't a part of the mainstream social fabric.
That said, the more wealthy and educated young Muslims were shown to be more radical in the documentary! As one said, his parents had to think about getting by in life, but he has the time and space to think and make up his mind, and he chose Sharia law.
V
RE: What Muslims Want
hi venetian
it is a relief to read how sure you are that the uk will not be under the sharia thumb anytime soon.
as a nation it seems we have become complacent about our freedom, educational opportunities, access to free health care etc, and as such have lost some kind of Will :a section of the community with a strong and galvanized will such as those wishing to see sharia law could bring that into being in the face of apathy..as in tomorrow has been cancelled due to lack of interest
tigress
RE: What Muslims Want
I didn't see the TV prog, but I listened toan interesting R4 programme on Tuesday afternoon, where the Islamic expert said that in principle Islamic culture is adaptive and takes the best from wherever it finds itself.The programme questioned the concept of a "moderate Muslim" - moderate in their drinking habits?tv watching? exercise habits? swearing? and made the point that there is more to a person than their religious views. We don't talk about "moderate Christians", (I spent the weekend in the company of an EvangelicalChristian- aarghh)
In order to make sense of any novel situation we generalise from the particular - it's important to stand back and acknowledge that trait.
I think the above argument about the cyclical nature of generational standpoints is a good one. What will the children ofBritish fundamentalist Muslims be like? Will they see their parents as being rebels without a cause?
This looks like it was taken at Covent Garden - will their children be dressed like this? Or - horrors! - will we? How can they tell who's who anyway? "I'm the one in the little black dress..........."? :eek:Sharon.
RE: What Muslims Want
Venetian said: "Going out for an Indian" is part of our culture now, almost a Brit thing, but not "going out for a Muslim"! 😮
tsk tsk, V... anymore than one says i am going out for a hindu or sikh... we talk of the regional cuisine, not the religion of who cooked it!
reading this thread, i got a bit twitchy, i have to say. whilst the notions are certainly concerning, i also thought it verging on religious intolerance.
Spinal Music said:
The programme questioned the concept of a "moderate Muslim" - moderate in their drinking habits?tv watching? exercise habits? swearing? and made the point that there is more to a person than their religious views. We don't talk about "moderate Christians",
sure, we dont talk of moderate christians, but we certainly talk about fundies. i think there are many christian factions that would consider themselves moderate (well normal to themselves), who do not drink, watch TV, swear etc... brethren come to mind.
i have a good muslim neighbour who was born here but by arranged marraige, his wife came over... probably a good 25 years ago. a few years ago, she did the hajj. he didnt, because he is not ready to give up drinking and swearing :D! but he attends the mosque regularly and observes ramadan/ eide... does that make him moderate?
i guess also, there is much we dont understand. having just returned from a fairly relaxed muslim/ arab place, i thought the concept of women shopping in the hugest mall, hmmm in the world (i dont know but you could ski in there [&:]), wearing the whole "little black dress" <g> sort of strange... i mean, just what could they be buying?! (yeah yeah i know, narrow minded of me... they need shoes, right? ;)).
RE: What Muslims Want
For those (including myself) who missed this programme:
[link= http://www.channel4.com/news/microsites/D/dispatches2006/ ]http://www.channel4.com/news/microsites/D/dispatches2006/[/link]
The repeat is scheduled for 4.45 am Wednesday ...which is actually Thursday, in the UK anyway ...for night-owls or video owners 😉
More:
[link= http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=what+muslims+want+jon+snow&btnG=Google+Search&meta=cr%3DcountryUK%7CcountryGB ]http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=what+muslims+want+jon+snow&btnG=Google+Search&meta=cr%3DcountryUK%7CcountryGB[/link]
I do just wonder, feeling a little twitchy myself, if references to "little black dresses" might not be found amusing by some readers???
Holistic
RE: What Muslims Want
Sharon,
Where on earth did you find that picture? More importantly, why would they bother taking a picture of women shrouded in black with only about a 2 inch opening for the eyes? how do they know who is who? I know of the reasons why muslim women dress in this way.......i just find it very hard to understand why? I assume thst its a rule brought in by a man.......why would any woman wish to looseher identy and cover all distingushing and beautifull features (except for the eyes). I suppose its just another part of the muslim culture that i will never fully understand.
Now, many of these people are religious and sincere. But they don't want democracy and they don't want our way of life.
This puzzles me very much........why would muslims stay here if they don't want our culture and way of life?..........why would they feel the need for the government of this country to be a 'muslim' government? I understand that they need to keep their identities and have the right to their religions and ways of life. It has been said that some muslims disagree with freedom of speech.......why? Why do they stay here if they don't like the way we do things?
If i decided that i was going to reside in another country, i would follow the rules and laws of that country, i may not agree with them, but i wouldn't try and change it, i would have respect for their way of life.
Its a very hard culture to understand.............i respect all religions and people beliefs, but what ifind it hard to be respectfullwhen youget another personsbeliefsshoved in my face and told thatyou are'immoral' and 'leading a sinful life', just because that is what their culture preaches (yes, a muslimmandid tell me these things a while back because he didn't like the way i was dressed). [:@]
Why do some muslims really hate the western culture, but still live here........its baffling.
Kate x
RE: What Muslims Want
on the freedom of speech issue, if people strongly feel it is wrong, then do they have the right to say so? Isn't it hypocrisy?
Like many others have stated I feel very twitchy about all this.
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(re the photo, doesn't his bum look big in this??) with all due respect, of course
RE: What Muslims Want
ORIGINAL: Reflexkate
Where on earth did you find that picture? More importantly, why would they bother taking a picture of women shrouded in black with only about a 2 inch opening for the eyes? how do they know who is who? I know of the reasons why muslim women dress in this way.......i just find it very hard to understand why? I assume thst its a rule brought in by a man.......why would any woman wish to looseher identy and cover all distingushing and beautifull features (except for the eyes). I suppose its just another part of the muslim culture that i will never fully understand.
Jon Snow did interview one young Muslim woman who once wore the general Western style of clothing, but he had to interview her now in the all-covering black clothing, only seeing the eyes. She said, clearly in honesty, that it was entirely her decision to change to that way of dressing, due to her religion which she was taking more seriously. -- However that was just one interview and doesn't show statistically whether it's a female's choice or whether they are pressured.
Mind you, just as I was watching this and thinking, "What's the point of dressing like that? How unnatural... " - I suddenly thought of hoodies! :D(who are 'Western').
It has been said that some muslims disagree with freedom of speech.......why?
It is more generalised I gather, but a core issue to them about freedom of speech is that Mohammad, Islam, and Allah should never in the slightest way be mocked, but shown only respect. So, for example, religious jokes are not only out, but highly punishable. The docu showed protesters in Britainabout the recent Danish cartoons about the Prophet: their placards had phrases like (something like) "Annihilate Freedom of Speech" etc., etc.
V
RE: What Muslims Want
Reflexkate:
If i decided that i was going to reside in another country, i would follow the rules and laws of that country, i may not agree with them, but i wouldn't try and change it, i would have respect for their way of life.
that was exactly my point!!
I am sorry guys and girls: but certain muslims (well those who want to change the country's ways) DO NOT RESPECT what they see as British culture.
They have lost the respect.
But, without being on their side (I am a foreigner and I moved to Britian, NOT Iran! I love my freedom as a woman too much, thank you), we could see their point or how they have come to these conclusions...
Imagine your idea of life is family caring and knowldge passed on to your children, morality included, with spirituality in every sphere of your life. Now you are a cab driver and drive most nights in streets which could make you scream, seeing things you could not even tell your wife or kids when back home: gangs of 15 years old girlswith mini skirt and nothing under (saw that myslef sadly), doing obsene gesture, women and men fighting and being sick...and it is only 11 pm.
Sorry about the gritty details but that is the reality of many english towns on friday and saturday nights.
So, no it's no excuse to want to take over and silence those Brits, but you can see a bit how they have come to think of this country as a "perfect, ideal place to save from its decadence and change into a balanced, cultured and spiritual society", which for them mean a Muslim state with Sharia law and punishment...and women veiled![sm=speechless-smiley-040.gif]
sorry if I insult anyone British here, but you could agree with me that maybe 30 years ago it was like that: the drinking and dressing of some women (I mean heels andmini-skirt and bra in a minus 6 degrees on a December night, alone by the side of the road...).
Of course, we have to wake up, but stay calm and positive, and try and understand their feelings.but still we should not be afraid to imagine the worst scenario, and let me tell you that as a French person, things have gone from bad to worse in France regarding the muslim population (many arab boys attacking girls, including me on the ground I had no right to be out at night!). so let'sstay alert.