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Mountaineer
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Theologians may quarrel, but the mystics of the world speak the same language
- Meister Eckhart

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amy green
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I view that mystics may vary in their enlightenment but all share common realisations.....there are many paths leading to the same truths.

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Crowan
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This may be a circular argument. What's your definition of a mystic?

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amy green
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This may be a circular argument. What's your definition of a mystic?

If that question was directed at myself....it is not my own definition but the standard understanding as outlined in a dictionary -

a person who seeks by contemplation and self-surrender to obtain unity with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or who believes in the spiritual apprehension of truths that are beyond the intellect.

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Crowan
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Okay - so what are the common realisations?

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amy green
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Okay - so what are the common realisations?

Perhaps I should have said common experiences - knowing what it feels like for the ego to dissolve and become part of the Oneness. I experienced this....just once!

It is a knowing that somewhat defies being described (a symptom of a mystical experience is its ineffability). One thing I can describe is that I saw (visually) the interconnectedness of everything....like a fine mesh.

I have been wanting to repeat this experience ever since. It came about unexpectedly (without trying), when I was in a natural setting and just sitting, without thoughts.

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Crowan
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And would you then call yourself a mystic?

I know this experience - once, like you, without trying. I wouldn't say that I have had to try hard the rest of the times; it's a fairly common experience (and I would think is common for most of those practicing shamanism). I wouldn't call myself a mystic.

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amy green
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And would you then call yourself a mystic?

I know this experience - once, like you, without trying. I wouldn't say that I have had to try hard the rest of the times; it's a fairly common experience (and I would think is common for most of those practicing shamanism). I wouldn't call myself a mystic.

A mystical experience doesn't, of itself, make one a mystic. I tasted that reality but I could not maintain it.

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Crowan
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But isn't it like 'enlightenment'? It isn't constantly maintainable. But the knowledge that that state exists and can be experienced changes you (changed me, anyway).

Theologians may quarrel, but the mystics of the world speak the same language
- Meister Eckhart

I'm still not sure about this, though. The mysticism of (for example) the Alwars is not exactly the same as (for example) the many mystics of the Catholic Church. The words might be the same - I'm not convinced the language is.

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amy green
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Yes to know a deeper reality/dimension, does change self and perception. However, I think that, with constant focus and intent, that enlightenment can be cultivated to become an on going, constant state of being. Tibetan monks spring to mind. It is more than just loss of ego (that can be easily accessed via meditation, for example).

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Crowan
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To what purpose?

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amy green
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To what purpose?

Maintaining a state of enlightenment? You need to ask?

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Crowan
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Maintaining a state of enlightenment? You need to ask?

Yes.

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amy green
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Yes.

Ha... well, I can only surmise but I expect it would be a blissful state of being, in constant harmony, seeing the bigger picture and being out of duality. That is very enticing to me.

(I would just settle for being constantly connected to love. I find even that somewhat of a struggle).

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Crowan
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Bliss is basically ecstasy, which is great but not something to be in all the time. Constant harmony is maybe a goal - I manage maybe 75% of the time.
Connected to love, to the spirits, to the earth - 95% of the time.
But I'm in a fortunate position, able to live Shamanically and dedicate myself to that.
I don't do duality much, anyway, as you know.

You know the zen saying? Before enlightenment chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment chop wood and carry water.

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amy green
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Bliss is basically ecstasy, which is great but not something to be in all the time. Constant harmony is maybe a goal - I manage maybe 75% of the time.
Connected to love, to the spirits, to the earth - 95% of the time.
But I'm in a fortunate position, able to live Shamanically and dedicate myself to that.
I don't do duality much, anyway, as you know.

You know the zen saying? Before enlightenment chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment chop wood and carry water.

Interesting. Well done!

Yes I probably meant harmony rather than bliss. I am at peace with myself - very grounded and centred but feel strongly about certain issues so am not above duality. I am half Italian so maybe there is something in that, re. being passionate.

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Crowan
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Why does having opinions about something mean duality? And ditto with passion?

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amy green
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Why does having opinions about something mean duality? And ditto with passion?

Feeling strongly about certain issues creates separation/divide.

Passion is great if it is positive but I am meaning here being passionate about a cause. To express this and fight for it keeps us in 3d i.e in duality...us and them etc.

To rise above duality means there is no longer any judgement of others. I am not prepared to give up my discernment.

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Crowan
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While discernment and judgement can mean the same thing, judging others is generally prejudice (pre-judgement), since we have to make assumptions in order to do it. It is possible to use discernment without judging others.

I wouldn't think of duality as something to rise above - that's making a value judgement about becoming a better person by doing it. I think it's something not worth using energy on - it's about becoming a happier person, since duality generally gets in the way of that. I take no credit for this, since duality is not part of shamanism and is not the way the spirits seem to think.

I can feel strongly about something - for example that peace is worth working for - without duality. Without any blame of anyone who thinks differently, since they have their reasons. Compassion means with passion - literally being with the suffering of others.

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amy green
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I can feel strongly about something - for example that peace is worth working for - without duality. Without any blame of anyone who thinks differently, since they have their reasons. Compassion means with passion - literally being with the suffering of others.

Do you not see that working for peace implies duality i.e. lack of peace?

Yes compassion is a good aspect of passion...then there is the more dubious side of passion e.g. crimes of passion.

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Crowan
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Can you not see ... - a phrase almost designed to engender non-peace.

Of course, any word can produce an opposite by forming a non area. This is basic logic, as illustrated by Venn diagrams. However, it has little application. We could define oposites by naming everything 5 or non-5. Apart from the occasional bit of algebra, I'm not sure that this contributes anything. The world and what we might call real life is far more complicated and rich to be confined by duality.

We've had this particular conversation before. So, before we get to the ^there are also shades of grey^ bit, let me say, there's also orange, blue, pink and an almost infinite range of other colours. What is non-peace? War? But war is not the only thing that gets in the way of peace. Noise? Worry? Poverty?

And, to some extent, disagreement. Which is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, total agreement could be seen as undesirable in some circumstances.

Duality is very limiting.

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amy green
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Yes I agree that duality is limiting and most people are in that space. I have found that those who purport not to judge have shown signs of doing just that. It is somewhat inevitable. Hence, to revert back to the topic, achieving enlightenment would be a step up from that i.e. to be free of this.

By the way, opposites are not just forming a non area, e.g day and night, love and hate .... (I could go on) all are very real.

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