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The power of now

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DanielKotzer
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Hi,

I'm sure many of you heard about the book "The power of now" by Ekhart Tolle. If you didn't here is a link to an audio version of this book:

It seems to me that Ekhart Tolle view is that living in the present moment, is the main goal of meditation. I thought of it only as a means to an end.

When you are in the present moment, your mind stops thinking, and thereby your awareness leaves your mind, and goes to the next zone, a more inner or higher zone which is your spirit or soul or your subconscious or what ever you want to call it - and there you experience all the good things meditation has to offer.

Any way, being in the now is only a means to stop the mind from thinking. You can't pay attention to the events that happen in the present moment - external events or internal events - and be absorbed in your thoughts about the future or the past, at the same time.

Why is it so? I have a theory: while you are in a receptive mode, gathering information through experience, the mind width holds its judgment until all the information is gathered. Maybe there are other explanations, but this one seems to be a simple one, and I see not reason to seek for complication (but I'm willing to hear). It doesn't make much of a difference anyways, as the simple fact is that the mind does stop thinking when you pay attention to the present moment.

In meditation you first detach your awareness from your body, by stopping all body activities, as a result, the awareness - which seeks interest - moves from the body to a deeper zone, the zone of thought - the mind. Now you need to continue to a deeper zone. How do you do it? again by using the tendency of your attention/awareness to seek interest, you can either stop thinking or think repetitively the same thought, until your awareness is bored and moves on. the second approach is the approach of transcendental meditation which doesn't require any concentration, it is totally mechanical. the first approach is that of Mindfulness meditation. You can't stop the mind from thinking, and by trying to do so you only draw more attention to it, because we give the same amount of attention to the things we want as to the things we resist. The solution is to adopt an indirect approach, meaning to stick the attention to the present moment, without rejecting thought, but as a result, thought will necessarily stop.

At this point that's my way of seeing thing. In my view the present moment is not what we are looking for, but a means to trick the mind to stop thinking, once this purpose was achieved we let go of the present moment, and dive into the subconscious mind.

Or am I wrong? is the "now" more then that? I would like to hear other opinions.

Thanks.

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amy green
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The Power Of Now is a deservedly best seller. I did not have your interpretation of it though. He borrows from other eastern teachings in being mindful/aware of the now and what transpires....which is like a state of non attachment.

I feel the success of this book is largely in addressing and providing practical solutions to the "pain body" (accumulation of old emotional pain) thereby freeing us to be ever present in the now.

I don't share your view that the motive for being in the now is to "trick the mind to stop thinking" and letting go of the present moment in order to dive into the subconscious - rather that being in the present in a more spiritually focused way (than being ego focused), enables a higher state of consciousness.

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Energylz
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When you are in the present moment, your mind stops thinking, and thereby your awareness leaves your mind, and goes to the next zone, a more inner or higher zone which is your spirit or soul or your subconscious or what ever you want to call it - and there you experience all the good things meditation has to offer.

Any way, being in the now is only a means to stop the mind from thinking. You can't pay attention to the events that happen in the present moment - external events or internal events - and be absorbed in your thoughts about the future or the past, at the same time.

Sorry, I disagree too.

It's impossible for the mind to stop thinking (unless you're dead I guess).
What being in the present moment does, is prevent you from becoming attached (having attachment) to the thoughts that are going on in the mind. When we are being present, we don't lose attention of events that are happening, we gain awareness of more/all things that are happening at that moment within our full senses. (we can quite literally "come to our senses"). Being present also allows us to act on things in the moment, without getting caught up on previous similar situations and applying mis-guided logic of the past onto something that has not happened yet (i.e. judging what is happening now as if it's going to be the same as something in the past, and projecting an expectation of the future on it)

Why is it so? I have a theory: while you are in a receptive mode, gathering information through experience, the mind width holds its judgment until all the information is gathered. Maybe there are other explanations, but this one seems to be a simple one, and I see not reason to seek for complication (but I'm willing to hear). It doesn't make much of a difference anyways, as the simple fact is that the mind does stop thinking when you pay attention to the present moment.

The simple fact is that it doesn't, we just don't become attached to the thoughts. If you become aware in the present moment, you can observe the thoughts flowing within the mind, without getting attached to them. Also, the mind does not generate judgement, it is our attachment to thoughts, and our mis-guided relating of one thought to past memories etc. that creates the judgment (i.e. that idea of taking a thought and perceiving that it relates to something else from the past, which itself is a corrupted pattern of what happened in the past, as it is now in the present - a mish-mash of associations between diverse and oft unrelated things).

In meditation you first detach your awareness from your body, by stopping all body activities, as a result, the awareness - which seeks interest - moves from the body to a deeper zone, the zone of thought - the mind. Now you need to continue to a deeper zone. How do you do it? again by using the tendency of your attention/awareness to seek interest, you can either stop thinking or think repetitively the same thought, until your awareness is bored and moves on. the second approach is the approach of transcendental meditation which doesn't require any concentration, it is totally mechanical. the first approach is that of Mindfulness meditation. You can't stop the mind from thinking, and by trying to do so you only draw more attention to it, because we give the same amount of attention to the things we want as to the things we resist. The solution is to adopt an indirect approach, meaning to stick the attention to the present moment, without rejecting thought, but as a result, thought will necessarily stop.

There are various meditation techniques, some involving body activities (e.g. walking meditation). It doesn't have to be an indirect approach either. Try focusing on a single thought, bringing that single thought into all your senses.... try to see it, smell it, hear it, and feel it. You will find that you cannot place your focus directly on a single thought (or even a feeling), it will just dissipate into nothing. That in itself is a form of meditation.

At this point that's my way of seeing thing. In my view the present moment is not what we are looking for, but a means to trick the mind to stop thinking, once this purpose was achieved we let go of the present moment, and dive into the subconscious mind.

Or am I wrong? is the "now" more then that? I would like to hear other opinions.

If you are in the present moment, then you are in the state of complete awareness, which is what a true state of meditation is. That being the case, there is no "subconscious" or any need to "dive into" anything. In a state of complete awareness, there is no separateness (duality), so there is no "this" and "that". To say you need to dive into the subconscious mind, suggests that you are separate from it and not already there, and if you are perceiving things in that way, then you are still perceiving duality, and not truly in the present moment awareness.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

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DanielKotzer
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Hi Giles,

It's been a long time... πŸ™‚

When I do Mindfulness meditation, I clearly notice my mind is not absorbed in thought anymore. I enjoy the present moment existence and don't feel like thinking anymore. And I also notice that for the thinking process to take place I need to detach my attention from what is happening at this very moment. But if you experience it differently, what can I say...

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Paul Crick
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But to be aware of what is happening is a thought process. πŸ˜‰

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DanielKotzer
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Hi Paul,

So, do you agree with Giles, that Meditation does nothing to your thought process. The thought flow continues as usual, only your attention detaches itself from it? (thereby thought go out of your screen, so to speak but they keep running at the background, that is if I understood Giles correctly).

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amy green
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But to be aware of what is happening is a thought process. πŸ˜‰

It can be but not necessarily. Being aware can be just being totally present/alert and drinking in/absorbing the surrounding environment and interactions without going on to form thoughts.

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Energylz
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But to be aware of what is happening is a thought process. πŸ˜‰

Not at all Paul. Awareness is not thinking. It's possible to be aware without thinking about it. e.g. just as an everyday example, it's likely you've had that experience where you were aware of someone mention your name (so you turn to look) but you didn't have to think about being aware of people possibly talking about you, that aspect of your awareness was just being aware, and likely your thoughts were on something else at the time.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

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Energylz
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Hi Giles,

It's been a long time... πŸ™‚

When I do Mindfulness meditation, I clearly notice my mind is not absorbed in thought anymore. I enjoy the present moment existence and don't feel like thinking anymore. And I also notice that for the thinking process to take place I need to detach my attention from what is happening at this very moment. But if you experience it differently, what can I say...

Hi Dan,

There's a difference in you not being absorbed in thought and whether the mind is thinking. The minds thinking process is ongoing (some teachers refer to it as thoughts "bubbling up"), as thoughts are always being generated and rising to the surface. Your awareness of the thoughts and your attachment to the thoughts are separate. You can become more aware and let go of being attached to the thoughts, but that doesn't stop the mind generating thoughts (that is why sometimes in meditation practice a thought comes up that we get attached to and it distracts us from our state of awareness). Thinking doesn't stop in the mind, but our awareness allows it to become all one with everything else in that whole state of awareness.

Perhaps if you are considering the mind to be what has awareness then I can see where there may be confusion, but the mind is just a part of everything, whereas awareness is all.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

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Energylz
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Hi Paul,

So, do you agree with Giles, that Meditation does nothing to your thought process. The thought flow continues as usual, only your attention detaches itself from it? (thereby thought go out of your screen, so to speak but they keep running at the background, that is if I understood Giles correctly).

Being pedantic perhaps, but I wouldn't say "the thought" continues as usual, I would say the process of thoughts continues. It only become "the thought" if you attach to one of the thoughts arising and create duality by doing that, making it something separate and singular in it's own right.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

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Paul Crick
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Hi Paul,

So, do you agree with Giles, that Meditation does nothing to your thought process. The thought flow continues as usual, only your attention detaches itself from it? (thereby thought go out of your screen, so to speak but they keep running at the background, that is if I understood Giles correctly).

Meditation is a form of distraction, but we cannot be aware of anything without a thought pattern that creates the awareness of being aware, to be fully aware of the now, requires us to focus our thoughts within what is, rather than being distracted by what has been or what might be. πŸ™‚

It can be but not necessarily. Being aware can be just being totally present/alert and drinking in/absorbing the surrounding environment and interactions without going on to form thoughts.

But awareness requires a thought pattern of awareness, if we do not choose to be aware then we are mostly oblivious to what is, whist being aware within the now, we are thinking about what is unfolding as it happens, that thought pattern will continue until we choose to place a judgment upon what is or what has just happened, then we loose the now. πŸ™‚

Not at all Paul. Awareness is not thinking. It's possible to be aware without thinking about it. e.g. just as an everyday example, it's likely you've had that experience where you were aware of someone mention your name (so you turn to look) but you didn't have to think about being aware of people possibly talking about you, that aspect of your awareness was just being aware, and likely your thoughts were on something else at the time.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

You will have to think that one through again Giles, what are you using to focus your awareness of someone mentioning your name? What are you using to turn around to see who has said your name? Everything begins and ends with a thought, the more we are in the now, the more we become aware of all of our thoughts that are arising within all of our aspect of consciousness. πŸ™‚

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amy green
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But awareness requires a thought pattern of awareness, if we do not choose to be aware then we are mostly oblivious to what is, whist being aware within the now, we are thinking about what is unfolding as it happens, that thought pattern will continue until we choose to place a judgment upon what is or what has just happened, then we loose the now. πŸ™‚

I think you are confusing the thought process that allows the gear change to enable awareness as still operating with the thought. It is not necessarily the case....awareness (as mentioned) can be just opening up and absorbing what is around us - more a state of being than one of thinking, i.e. can precede thoughts. I know the difference since I have experienced both being aware without thought (more one of being centred in feeling really) and then forming thoughts about that experience.

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Paul Crick
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I think you are confusing the thought process that allows the gear change to enable awareness as still operating with the thought. It is not necessarily the case....awareness (as mentioned) can be just opening up and absorbing what is around us - more a state of being than one of thinking, i.e. can precede thoughts. I know the difference since I have experienced both being aware without thought (more one of being centred in feeling really) and then forming thoughts about that experience.

How would you be aware of anything without a though process that creates the perception of awareness?

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Energylz
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You will have to think that one through again Giles, what are you using to focus your awareness of someone mentioning your name? What are you using to turn around to see who has said your name? Everything begins and ends with a thought, the more we are in the now, the more we become aware of all of our thoughts that are arising within all of our aspect of consciousness. πŸ™‚

I don't focus my awareness on someone mentioning my name, but when it occurs through my senses my awareness is aware of it (because it's always aware of everything), and then a thought can arise as a result and I can become attached to that thought and duality occurs, creating the "me over here" and "my name mentioned over there" and then a trail of thoughts that arise from that to which I am attached and follow.

If someone were to stick a pin in your behind πŸ˜€ without you knowing they are there, is that pin prick started with a thought, or with the awareness (through the senses in this case) that something has happened for which a thought then occurs?

All Love and Reiki Hugs

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Energylz
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How would you be aware of anything without a though process that creates the perception of awareness?

How can you be an observer of thoughts if the thoughts create the observer?

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amy green
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How would you be aware of anything without a though process that creates the perception of awareness?

As I explained you have the thought process to become aware, i.e. initially. You then enter a state of awareness which need not then be accompanied by thought.

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Paul Crick
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I don't focus my awareness on someone mentioning my name, but when it occurs through my senses my awareness is aware of it (because it's always aware of everything), and then a thought can arise as a result and I can become attached to that thought and duality occurs, creating the "me over here" and "my name mentioned over there" and then a trail of thoughts that arise from that to which I am attached and follow.

If someone were to stick a pin in your behind πŸ˜€ without you knowing they are there, is that pin prick started with a thought, or with the awareness (through the senses in this case) that something has happened for which a thought then occurs?

All Love and Reiki Hugs

Awareness is a thought process, though one that we are so used to that we possibly do not comprehend it as being so, we look but without a thought process to make sense of what we are seeing, then we would not make sense of what the eye is detecting. We hear but without a thought process to perceive what we are hearing, then we would not comprehend any sound. We walk but we do not comprehend how much thought process is involved in doing so, we drive down a familiar road without taking any notice, but we are thinking non stop to be able to do so.

As for the pin prick, yes it started with a thought, for if someone had not thought to stick the pin in me, then it would not have happened. πŸ™‚

How can you be an observer of thoughts if the thoughts create the observer?

Because all is one within the oneness of consciousness, the little amount of thought that we are often aware of, is only the tip of the iceberg, we think non stop all of the time, but we are not often aware that it is happening, meditation often strives through distraction to make us less aware of our thoughts, rather then helping us to become more receptive to the fullness of self and everything. πŸ™‚

As I explained you have the thought process to become aware, i.e. initially. You then enter a state of awareness which need not then be accompanied by thought.

Yes this is like driving, when we first learn to drive we are completely focused upon doing different things at the same time and struggle, then we learn and another aspect of our consciousness takes over the mechanics of driving so we can focus upon other things whist driving, awareness is a though process, though I agree we do not need to judge what we are observing, we can just accept it. πŸ™‚

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DanielKotzer
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It seems that if you go down to the very delicate details, there are different views on what exactly happens in the mind during meditation, and also, words can have a slightly different meaning for different people. What I was really interested in was to determine what meditation is all about, and show that sometimes the technique we use to achieve that goal is confused with the goal itself.

Does anyone have doubt that meditation is doing something to the subconscious mind? Just like hypnosis is doing something to the subconscious mind. The only difference I see between the two, is that hypnosis is meant to program your subconscious mind using suggestions, while meditation is deprogramming your subconscious mind, releasing it from its conditionings and thereby releasing stress, and stopping the destructive behaviors that is driven by stress. There are various techniques how to expose the subconscious mind, but the target is the subconscious mind.

Does anyone have doubt that meditation is doing something to the subconscious mind?

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Paul Crick
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The answer to that will depend upon who is doing the meditation and how much they understand what they are doing, with self meditation, then as it is instigated by self in our everyday thinking aspect of consciousness, then the effects are being created in that aspect of consciousness, it generally creates a diversion from our other aspects of consciousness rather than embraces them (stilling the mind will still all aspects of consciousness from our thought awareness). πŸ˜‰

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Crowan
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Does anyone have doubt that meditation is doing something to the subconscious mind? Just like hypnosis is doing something to the subconscious mind. The only difference I see between the two, is that hypnosis is meant to program your subconscious mind using suggestions, while meditation is deprogramming your subconscious mind, releasing it from its conditionings and thereby releasing stress, and stopping the destructive behaviors that is driven by stress. There are various techniques how to expose the subconscious mind, but the target is the subconscious mind.

Would you have any views on where shamanic journeying fits with this?

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DanielKotzer
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There is the tradition view of shamanic journeying, which I can't argue with. It is based on belief. It is an explanation of a Phenomenon that exists, but the way it is explained and defined by different traditions, can change from one tradition to another. There is no way to verify things unless you are willing to cross-check information and question your tradition, and investigate seeking for the truth. and even then, not every explanation can be verified, but until proven otherwise, we need to assume the most simple or reasonable explanation is the right one. Though if you want to enjoy the wisdom of the elders, you must respect tradition and give it credit, that it must contain some truth, or an angle of the truth, presented in a language of itself.

In my view, shamanic journeying could be some kind of an out-of-body-experience. your subconscious mind is connected to the collective unconscious mind, which is, in my view, an actual place - the spirit realm. You can meet with the spirits there, and get answers. Not everyone can actually see spirits, but when you are there you do get meaningful visions.

Many other strange phenomenon happen in the subconscious domain, like - thought manifestation. Nowadays, modern physics does verify that the mind has power over matter. It seems that not the conscious mind but the subconscious mind, in certain conditions, has the ability to materialize itself, bypassing action, which explains the miracles performed by saints. It can also be explained as the work of angles and spirits, that existing in the spirit domain.

My point is that I was only speaking about the benefits of meditation, at the very basic level, at the psychological level. There is much more to the story and I know it. The subconscious domain is a place of mystery, but I always like to stick to the clear side of things and only then expand.

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Energylz
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Awareness is a thought process, though one that we are so used to that we possibly do not comprehend it as being so, we look but without a thought process to make sense of what we are seeing, then we would not make sense of what the eye is detecting. We hear but without a thought process to perceive what we are hearing, then we would not comprehend any sound. We walk but we do not comprehend how much thought process is involved in doing so, we drive down a familiar road without taking any notice, but we are thinking non stop to be able to do so.

Ah, ok, I think what we have here is just a different understanding of what we mean by "Awareness". The awareness you seem to be describing is what I would refer to as "perception" which itself is an aspect of discernment, and hence the attachment needed to access those parts of mind that allow discernment to take place. In order "to make sense of" something, yes we need to think about it, but then you are considering that "something" to be separate from self, so we're in the realm of dualistic thoughts ("me" and the "thing").

You are right when you say "we hear but without a thought process to perceive what we are hearing, then we would not comprehend any sound". That is certainly true. But that is not Awareness as would define it. Awareness is the fact that "we hear" and simply that, and we can be in a state where we have such awareness and we have not attachment needing us to try and perceive what it is or comprehend it, because at that stage the sound (and everything in awareness) is all part of One. The sound, the sights, the smells or any other things are all part of One in the state of complete Awareness, and that is the state achieved through the practice of meditation (meditation leads us to the state, as a tool, but it is not the state itself).

Sure, I agree there are also conscious thoughts (those we are attached to and focused on) and unconscious thoughts (those we don't consciously perceive and are part of our automated actions), but that is still not what the state of Awareness is. Awareness encompasses all of those things as One.

As for the pin prick, yes it started with a thought, for if someone had not thought to stick the pin in me, then it would not have happened. πŸ™‚

LOL! Very good. πŸ˜€

Because all is one within the oneness of consciousness, the little amount of thought that we are often aware of, is only the tip of the iceberg, we think non stop all of the time, but we are not often aware that it is happening, meditation often strives through distraction to make us less aware of our thoughts, rather then helping us to become more receptive to the fullness of self and everything. πŸ™‚

Ooo, so many things to agree and disagree with. πŸ™‚
Your "oneness of consciousness" is likely what I mean by the "state of awareness". Meditation, I guess you could say is a distraction, as it's allowing a single point of focus (initially) to allow us to drop attachment to the bubbling thoughts that we are so often attached to (though the thoughts continue on, passing by). It's not that we are less aware of the thoughts, we are rather detached from them, so don't grab hold of a passing thought and start to follow it (which leads to us attaching to other related thoughts). In the state of awareness you are still aware of thoughts flowing, and it's attaching back to the thoughts that brings us out of the "Oneness/Awareness" state given to us through meditation.
Being in a state of Awareness allows us to truly be our full Self, and become more present.
As Daniel was asking, I would even say that the practice of being present, in Awareness and our true Self, does help to "re-wire" the subconscious/unconscious mind, so that even when we are not practicing meditation, we are more easily able to be present in what we do, and become less attached to things that pass us by and we can no longer influence as they are not present.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

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Paul Crick
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Hi Giles a lot there to go through, but let us keep it simple, our main awareness comes through our senses, so if we take away all of our senses then we are left with what we started with, which is a thought, which is consciousness in a nutshell; without thought we would not exist, without thought we would have nothing to be aware with, because though is awareness, even the awareness of thinking comes through our thoughts, everything begins and ends with a thought.

Meditation can alter our thoughts for a while a bit like taking mind altering drugs, but if it could rewire our consciousness, then we would only need to do it once, if we need to keep doing it, then it is not a solution, it is a distraction, for when we are in acceptance, there is no chatter to distract from the Now, we are the now. πŸ™‚

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Energylz
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I think we're going down the route of having to agree to disagree. πŸ˜€

If thought is consciousness, then how can we observe thoughts (I know I can observe my thoughts). For that to occur, thoughts have to be observed separately from ourselves, yes we can be fully aware of those thoughts. If I enter a state of meditation, I can be aware of more than just what is perceived through my bodily senses, I become a full awareness (and here's where wording can't really describe it) that is all encompassing of everything (actually IS everything).

Meditation can alter our thoughts for a while a bit like taking mind altering drugs, but if it could rewire our consciousness, then we would only need to do it once

Not necessarily. Like many things an action may only have a partial effect and requires re-applying to build up on that effect. With meditation, it can effect our unconscious mind and have an effect that can last when we are no longer practicing the meditation, but as is often the case, things in our daily regular lives, where we are attached to things, can undo some of that re-wiring, or re-enforce previously weaker wiring. Like some medications, meditation requires regular practice for the effects to build up, and often the benefits of meditation are realised better after longer periods of time, rather than some people would desire to notice an immediate effect after meditating just once.

for when we are in acceptance, there is no chatter to distract from the Now, we are the now

I'm not sure I follow how this ties together. Even if a person is completely accepting, how does that relate to having no chatter? People can be completely accepting and still have thoughts chattering through their mind and get caught up in them.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

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Paul Crick
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I think we're going down the route of having to agree to disagree. πŸ˜€

If thought is consciousness, then how can we observe thoughts (I know I can observe my thoughts). For that to occur, thoughts have to be observed separately from ourselves, yes we can be fully aware of those thoughts. If I enter a state of meditation, I can be aware of more than just what is perceived through my bodily senses, I become a full awareness (and here's where wording can't really describe it) that is all encompassing of everything (actually IS everything).

I am a little confused as to why you do not think you can only observe your own thoughts separate from yourself Giles, we have more than one aspect of consciousness and they are all more that capable of listening to everything that goes on in the fullness of self and more, how often do you finish your partners sentences or know something as someone thinks it before they say it?

We can be fully aware without having to meditate, that is what is called being in the Now!

Not necessarily. Like many things an action may only have a partial effect and requires re-applying to build up on that effect. With meditation, it can effect our unconscious mind and have an effect that can last when we are no longer practicing the meditation, but as is often the case, things in our daily regular lives, where we are attached to things, can undo some of that re-wiring, or re-enforce previously weaker wiring. Like some medications, meditation requires regular practice for the effects to build up, and often the benefits of meditation are realised better after longer periods of time, rather than some people would desire to notice an immediate effect after meditating just once.

We are all capable of being one with all of our aspects of consciousness without having to go through a ritual or perform a meditation, granted we are not taught how to do it, but we are all more than capable. πŸ™‚

I'm not sure I follow how this ties together. Even if a person is completely accepting, how does that relate to having no chatter? People can be completely accepting and still have thoughts chattering through their mind and get caught up in them.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

The chatter is our thoughts that are arising within the fullness of self, if we remember that an inner conflict is created when two or more opposing thought patterns and/or beliefs arise at the same time, then when we stop judging and rejecting self or what we do etc, then because we are in total acceptance of the fullness of self in an open an non-judgmental way, there are no inner divisional conflict to create the endless chatter, so we experience inner harmony, which equates to peace and quiet.

Simples πŸ™‚

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DanielKotzer
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The chatter is our thoughts that are arising within the fullness of self, if we remember that an inner conflict is created when two or more opposing thought patterns and/or beliefs arise at the same time, then when we stop judging and rejecting self or what we do etc, then because we are in total acceptance of the fullness of self in an open an non-judgmental way, there are no inner divisional conflict to create the endless chatter, so we experience inner harmony, which equates to peace and quiet.

That is one of the most important things I've learned from Paul - That the inner chattering is the result of dilemma and decision making.

In addition to that I say: this inner chatter, started at the moment Adam (the first man) ate from the tree of knowing good and bad/right and wrong, and was making moral distinctions between good and bad by himself, as if he was a God. Once you let go of the inner chattering, you're are in fact, going back to the grace of God, waiting for guidance from above, through inspiration from the spirit world, which is what prophecy is all about. Meditation techniques were used by all the prophets to draw inspiration from above. You still need to be skeptic, and know how to distinguish between true and false, otherwise you'll be cheated wherever you go, even by the spirits.

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DanielKotzer
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I think that just as in any advertising campaign, the goal is to try to circumvent the protections of the critical mind - the conscious mind - and push hidden messages to the subconscious mind, in meditation and hypnosis we also try to reach the subconscious mind, and therefore we need to find a way to bypass the conscious mind - which protects the subconscious mind - in order to communicate with the subconscious mind.

This critical mind, can be called in different names -- the conscious mind, or the judging mind, or the inner chattering (which is the the outcome of it), or the decision making process, some simply call it 'thought' or 'thought process' but I think they too, refer to the conscious mind that is judging the information it receives -- at the end, the terminology is not important, as long as we refer to the same thing.

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DanielKotzer
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I see a big difference between skepticism and criticism. skepticism is healthy - it is the ability to distinguish between true and false. criticism is a disease that needs to be cured. It is our false notion that we can distinguish between good and bad. I don't even know if there is such a thing as a good deed or a bad deed. it all depends on the circumstances. A man can cut someone open and he did murder, on different circumstances he is a doctor saving his life. Once you cure yourself form the compulsion to judge, your mind becomes loving, and every thing you do, comes out of pure intention, because you don't see others as separated from yourself. You realize the oneness off all beings, and you feel empathy towards them.

We can ask ourselves what is God's will? but that would be a question of true and false, not of good and bad.

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amy green
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I see a big difference between skepticism and criticism. skepticism is healthy - it is the ability to distinguish between true and false. criticism is a disease that needs to be cured. It is our false notion that we can distinguish between good and bad. I don't even know if there is such a thing as a good did or a bad did. it all depends on the circumstances. A man can cut someone open and he did murder, on different circumstances he is a doctor saving his life. Once you cure yourself form the compulsion to judge, your mind becomes loving, and every thing you do, comes out of pure intention, because you don't see others as separated from yourself. You realize the oneness off all beings, and you feel empathy towards them.

We can ask ourselves what is God's will? but that would be a question of true and false, not of good and bad.

There is such a thing as constructive criticism, i.e. pointing out the weaknesses inherent in something (useful in writer's workshops so that the writer can make improvements). Even if it is not constructive, criticism can serve a useful purpose as in warning others what is a con or the pitfalls in something. Indeed, I started a thread on this re. new age beliefs. It is important to differentiate the wheat from the chaff - discernment is invaluable. Frowning on judgement is, itself, a judgement! There is a difference between being judgemental (e.g. a value judgement) and having judgement (discernment).

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DanielKotzer
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Pointing out a problem that needs to be fixed, is a matter of fact not of judgment. it is not the type of criticism I'm talking about. If you don't look for someone to place the blame on, only for a way to make things better, then I don't call it judgment. Even if you decide to replace the man doing the job with someone who is more capable, I don't call it judgment. these are all matters of fact. But terminology can be tricky sometimes.

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