Is shamanic journeying actually a way of exploring and interacting with what Jung called the collective unconscious? What do people think....
No.
I believe Jungian psychology (I’m not an expert) deals in archetypes. This explanation may appeal to those who prefer to think of the spirits as being part of the unconscious mind, or those who like to think that everything in a shamanic journey is symbolic and is a metaphor for something else.
This is trying to be trendy and psychological while not believing literally in spirits. Why complicate things?
I believe Jungian psychology (I’m not an expert) deals in archetypes. This explanation may appeal to those who prefer to think of the spirits as being part of the unconscious mind, or those who like to think that everything in a shamanic journey is symbolic and is a metaphor for something else.
This is trying to be trendy and psychological while not believing literally in spirits. Why complicate things?
I'm not an expert either. I'm not trying to be trendy or psychological and I am not trying to complicate things! Goodness me! Despite a bit of initial silliness it was a serious question. I had to do a lot of reading on Jung for an art therapy course and we also did quite a few 'active imagination' exercises to explore the idea of the unconscious in a therapeutic way. As shamans the world over seem to have similar experiences, journeying reminded me of Jung's ideas.
I'm not an expert either. I'm not trying to be trendy or psychological and I am not trying to complicate things! Goodness me! Despite a bit of initial silliness it was a serious question. I had to do a lot of reading on Jung for an art therapy course and we also did quite a few 'active imagination' exercises to explore the idea of the unconscious in a therapeutic way. As shamans the world over seem to have similar experiences, journeying reminded me of Jung's ideas.
I didn't mean to suggest that you personally were not being serious, but the whole question of imagination and subconcious mind is fraught. It's as hard for us to dismiss the psychology that we have been subjected to as it is to dismiss the religion. (I say ‘subjected to’ because, for most of us it is not as formal as ‘taught’.) And - as you can probably tell - I tend towards the 'fundamentalist end' of shamanic viewpoints.
In a native shamanic society any distinction between imagination and actually communicating with the spirits has little or no meaning – imagination is one way of journeying. Here, we are taught to use our imaginations to explore things that are not real. Non-ordinary Reality is not the same as Virtual Reality.
An archetype is a model, a stereotype. A spirit is an individual being. You may, in a journey, meet a warrior, a mother or a wizard. But they are no more archetypes than they would be if you met humans performing those roles – they are, if you like, people ‘doing those jobs’.
The power of shamanism lies in the relationship between the shaman and the spirits. It is a real, living, growing relationship between real personalities. Shamans all over the world have similar experiences because the spirits are real people and, all over the world, behave in real-people ways (albeit people who have more experience/knowledge/wisdom and a far wider perspective than we have).
Having said that, I have met people who like the idea of archetypes. They tend to be the same people who talk of ‘totem animals’ and don’t want to interact on any real level. That’s okay, but it’s not shamanism.
I'm quite willing to accept that spirits have their own personalities and can interact with us as you say, Crowan, but I have a bit of a problem when it comes to the guises some are said to adopt. Reading your own book, for example, I was enthralled by the narrative until suddenly we came to "house spirits" and my mind balked. Somehow the images depicted reminded me of old horror films or Harry Potter!
I mean no disrespect, and have absolute confidence in your own belief and integrity, but to a tentative exporer like myself perhaps considering the archetype theory might help to overcome the mental block? Journeying itself may well be the answer, but I wouldn't want to go into it with any misconceptions.
I was relating shamanic journeying to the collective unconscious because it struck me that as journeying to solve problems seems to be an inherent ability, and as quite different cultures have done it in similar ways, you could say that something quite deep but common to all of us, i.e. the unconscious, is coming into play and that this may well have certain contents shared by all.
Archetypes arise as energetic structures which form into figures; they are fluid; aspects of different ones can combine. They are not necessarily just stereotypical figures but weirder/more mysterious than that I think.
I’ve done active imagination exercises with a group and it can be quite strange as you don’t always recognise what emerges, sometimes there are solutions to problems. I think that this experience is what brought the question to mind for me.
This becomes a bit deeper in the end because you have to define your terms. It is fraught, as you say. Does the unconscious even exist? How do we know it is there? What do we mean by the term ‘spirits’? (I’m really not questioning anyone’s beliefs here, as I think beliefs are based on experience but I think you have to understand what the other person means when they use the word). What I wonder is….Is a spirit a distinct separate being totally external to your consciousness or is it a deep energetic part of you that you don’t have any awareness of at all until you go looking for it and because of this it feels like it is separate? Or is it an external energy that you sense and your consciousness then automatically interprets/forms into something as part of your sensing?
I just like to have a think, I’m not attached to any particular belief. Experience wise I have seen a spirit – as something apparently external and have sensed an energy/spirit within the land…..so, I don’t know! Aaaaarrrrgh!
What I wonder is….Is a spirit a distinct separate being totally external to your consciousness or is it a deep energetic part of you that you don’t have any awareness of at all until you go looking for it and because of this it feels like it is separate? Or is it an external energy that you sense and your consciousness then automatically interprets/forms into something as part of your sensing?
That's very much what I'm wondering, too.
I'd also be interested to know whether a particular spirit appears the same to different people, when journeying.
What I wonder is….Is a spirit a distinct separate being totally external to your consciousness or is it a deep energetic part of you that you don’t have any awareness of at all until you go looking for it and because of this it feels like it is separate? Or is it an external energy that you sense and your consciousness then automatically interprets/forms into something as part of your sensing?
So, do you mean like... to use an analogy as an example... one person seing a face in a cloud and another seeing a horse. They both perceive something different, but both those things represent the same cloud. Are you therefore asking if what a shaman perceives as spirits could be being perceived by others in different forms, such as the energy of One/Collective conscious and if, in shamanism, those things are seen as seperate to the shamanic practitioner or a part of themselves... sort of like saying... you can see a dog spirit and this is a manifestation of the dog nature in yourself and others?
So, do you mean like... to use an analogy as an example... one person seing a face in a cloud and another seeing a horse. They both perceive something different, but both those things represent the same cloud. Are you therefore asking if what a shaman perceives as spirits could be being perceived by others in different forms, such as the energy of One/Collective conscious and if, in shamanism, those things are seen as seperate to the shamanic practitioner or a part of themselves... sort of like saying... you can see a dog spirit and this is a manifestation of the dog nature in yourself and others?
I was relating shamanic journeying to the collective unconscious because it struck me that as journeying to solve problems seems to be an inherent ability, and as quite different cultures have done it in similar ways, you could say that something quite deep but common to all of us, i.e. the unconscious, is coming into play and that this may well have certain contents shared by all.
The shaman journeys to communicate with his/her spirit allies. They give information and healing. This may indeed lead to a problem being solved, but ‘journeying to solve problems’ ignores the relationship with the spirits.
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Originally Posted by mouse16
What do we mean by the term ‘spirits’? (I’m really not questioning anyone’s beliefs here, as I think beliefs are based on experience but I think you have to understand what the other person means when they use the word). What I wonder is….Is a spirit a distinct separate being totally external to your consciousness or is it a deep energetic part of you that you don’t have any awareness of at all until you go looking for it and because of this it feels like it is separate? Or is it an external energy that you sense and your consciousness then automatically interprets/forms into something as part of your sensing?
Spirits are external (call it energy if you want to). Of course, how I see/hear etc. the spirits is filtered through my perceptions – just as how I see/hear anything else is - but they have an existence separate from me. It is entirely possible for several people journeying to meet the same spirits. It is possible to come back with information that you could not have known had a spirit not told you.
(If it makes you happier, feel free to put the words, ‘I believe’ or ‘in my opinion’ in front of the previous sentences.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Energylz
Are you therefore asking if what a shaman perceives as spirits could be being perceived by others in different forms, such as the energy of One/Collective conscious and if, in shamanism, those things are seen as seperate to the shamanic practitioner or a part of themselves... sort of like saying... you can see a dog spirit and this is a manifestation of the dog nature in yourself and others?
Anyone is free to decide for themselves what spirits are. But if you are going to see them as part of yourself, then you are ‘doing’ psychology, not shamanism.
I'm quite willing to accept that spirits have their own personalities and can interact with us as you say, Crowan, but I have a bit of a problem when it comes to the guises some are said to adopt. Reading your own book, for example, I was enthralled by the narrative until suddenly we came to "house spirits" and my mind balked. Somehow the images depicted reminded me of old horror films or Harry Potter!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiga
I mean no disrespect, and have absolute confidence in your own belief and integrity, but to a tentative exporer like myself perhaps considering the archetype theory might help to overcome the mental block? Journeying itself may well be the answer, but I wouldn't want to go into it with any misconceptions.
I have an acquaintance (I can’t get on with her well enough to call her a friend) who insists on viewing everyone through stereotypes. She’s quite benign about it – her comment on discovering that my sister-in-law is Chinese was, “Oh, I wish I had an ethnic minority in my family. They’re so much more creative than we are.” On my tackling her about this, she said that using stereotypes helped her understand people. (I think it helps her to misunderstand people.) This is what reducing the spirits to archetypes that exist in our subconscious (whatever it is) does. It denies individuality. (And yes, I understand that achetypes and stereotypes are not the same. But they may as well be when they are being used as an excuse not to form relationships with spirits or people.)
It might make people feel happier about the whole subject – and that’s fine – but it’s not shamanism.
A basic precept of shamanism is animism. That is, that everything has a spirit. That has to include houses. What is it that disturbs you about this? The reference to old horror stories could apply equally to (for example) tree spirits. (And I haven’t read much Harry Potter.)
Anyone is free to decide for themselves what spirits are. But if you are going to see them as part of yourself, then you are ‘doing’ psychology, not shamanism.
I guess that depends if you consider the self to be seperate to other selves or just one big Self. However, considering spirits to be part of one consciousness isn't necessarily psychology, but looking at the considerations of how people perceive things and whether things that are being described are essentially the same thing, just with different terminology or beliefs around them is a form of psychology I'd agree, although you could also consider it to be philosophy... or... why not just say it's an interest in trying to understand each other from different perspectives.
That's why I think the question of this thread is perfectly relevant, especially for people who know of shamanism but aren't really involved in it or understand it. A lot of learning comes from trying to equate one persons expression of things with what we already know ourselves. It's a bit like saying, "I don't know anything about shamanism, but would like to understand it more, so can you explain to me about your spirits and how can I understand those based on what I already know myself".
That's why I think the question of this thread is perfectly relevant, especially for people who know of shamanism but aren't really involved in it or understand it. A lot of learning comes from trying to equate one persons expression of things with what we already know ourselves. It's a bit like saying, "I don't know anything about shamanism, but would like to understand it more, so can you explain to me about your spirits and how can I understand those based on what I already know myself".
I agree. However, if people are asking these questions on the shamanism forum, then they are presumably looking for a shamanic answer. I would never suggest that they should change their minds about what spirits are, but they should be aware of the shamanist viewpoint if that’s what they have asked for.
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